2018 Olympic Season: Men's Figure Skating

fireovertheice · Jan 11, 2018

Skater Boy said:
interesting but this does not tell the tale about the quality of the skating, edge etc. Still interesting.

Yes it's true, and I expected also remarks like this. These are just some quantitative aspects that to me could matter in the evaluation of SS and TR, though.

In fact, those counts and the resulting numbers have been useful to me to observe and to understand better what actually those skaters are doing with their feet besides the elements, and also their/ their teams different strategies in the "building" of the programs, depending also by the skaters skills. You can see also better this aspect if you look at the distribution of one foot skating in the different sections of the programs (and in doing so I realised that some ChSqs are a joke, or at least have a really simplistic choreography...).

In any case, I hope that the video and its contents will be useful to other people who want to take in consideration these data to reflect a bit about what these skaters do on the ice and that should / could be reflected at least in part in the PCs scores.
An other thing I wanted to remark with the data used in the video is that SS and TR by are not just artistic components like IN, PE and in part CO - like some people still tend to claim (I read often "PCS are for the artistic marks") - and, at some extent, they can be also "countable" and evaluable in a more objective way, if one want to do it.

Rissa · Jan 17, 2018

So, by raw numbers, Boyang Jin has better skating skills than both Chen and Uno? I find it funny.

But there's no denying that being from USA and Japan certainly "helped" the latter two's SS. Especially Uno's.

fireovertheice · Jan 17, 2018

Rissa said:
So, by raw numbers, Boyang Jin has better skating skills than both Chen and Uno? I find it funny.

But there's no denying that being from USA and Japan certainly "helped" the latter two's SS. Especially Uno's.

No, it's clear that those numbers alone don't mean that: I think I was clear in the previous post.
But they can mean, at least, that Jin try to skate more on one foot than of the two skaters you mentioned (among the more quoted as Oly gold contenders...), he has also a certain number of difficult turns and steps among the TR in his program and that has something that you can call properly a ChSq too (if you look at those of Uno and Chen are less more than a cantilever and a long spread eagle, respectively).

Then, also if this is not strictly the argument of the video, if I have in mind those numbers and I give a look to PCS given in the first part of the season (GP serie) for SS and TR, they can be indicators that in the first and more in the second one Boyang Jin has been a little underscored in comparison to Uno and Chen, that are instead more or less overscored in those components IMO.

S. Uno --> av. SS 9.32 ; TR 8.96
SC--> SS: 9.29 TR: 8.89*
IdF--> SS: 9.32; TR: 9.00
GPF--> SS: 9.36; TR: 8.96
* At the same comp P. Chan received 9.25 in SS and 9.18 in TR

N. Chen --> av. SS: 8.96 ; TR: 8.61
CoR--> SS: 8.96 ; TR: 8.57*
SA--> SS: 8.82 ; TR: 8.50
GPF--> SS: 8.96; TR: 8.61
* At the same comp Y. Hanyu received 9.54 in SS and 9.18 in TR

B. Jin --> av. SS: 8.16 ; TR: 7.59
CoC--> SS: 8.21; TR:7.54
SA--> SS: 8.11; TR: 7.64

Rissa · Jan 18, 2018

fireovertheice said:
No, it's clear that those numbers alone don't mean that: I think I was clear in the previous post.

I wasn't refering to your post. In fact, before I wrote my comment I hadn't even read your post.

Sorry, but I still find it funny that "Just Quads" Jin does less crossovers and more one-foot and revolutions skating than "Oh-so-balletic-whole-package" Chen and "Next-Takahashi" Uno.

AngelENTL · Jan 19, 2018

There's more to skating skills than one-foot skating.

I've decided my dream podium is: 1. Fernandez; 2. Uno; 3. Chan

But realistically, I predict it will be Chen, Uno, and Fernandez/Hanyu in some order, not sure which.

Bcash · Jan 19, 2018

AngelENTL said:
There's more to skating skills than one-foot skating.

I've decided my dream podium is: 1. Fernandez; 2. Uno; 3. Chan

But realistically, I predict it will be Chen, Uno, and Fernandez/Hanyu in some order, not sure which.

I don't think Hanyu will be off podium. He's just too tough a competitor and has too high a score potential.

I'd have to say, of all the possible gold medalists, a Nathan win would be the least emotional. And aesthetically the least exciting.

Roast Toast · Jan 20, 2018

It's true. Everyone knows the most emotional and aesthetically pleasing result would be Boyang threepeating his bronze medal at the Olympics. Preferably with the Spider-man program back.

charlotte14 · Jan 20, 2018

Rissa said:
I wasn't refering to your post. In fact, before I wrote my comment I hadn't even read your post.

Sorry, but I still find it funny that "Just Quads" Jin does less crossovers and more one-foot and revolutions skating than "Oh-so-balletic-whole-package" Chen and "Next-Takahashi" Uno.

I think it means Boyang is better at keeping his speed than "Balletic" Nathan and "Daisuke 2.0" Shoma.

nekun · Jan 20, 2018

People predict Yuzu will off podium is a good thing, less pressure on him and sometimes Yuzu better at chasing than being chased

charlotte14 · Jan 20, 2018

nekun said:
People predict Yuzu will off podium is a good thing, less pressure on him and sometimes Yuzu better at chasing than being chased

With everyone watering down their layout, it would be funny if Hanyu going into Olympic with highest BV...

nekun · Jan 20, 2018

charlotte14 said:
With everyone watering down their layout, it would be funny if Hanyu going into Olympic with highest BV...

I won't be surprised if it gonna happen becouse knowing Yuzuru, he will stick with his own thing, I believe he will stick with 5 quads layout although the 4Lz may dissapeared

HanDomi · Jan 20, 2018

If Hanyu sticks to 5 quad program then he is not going to win. As simple as that. It's just asking for problems
If he goes with free with 3 quads, I am confident he will win
If 4 50/50

But he definitely should do short with 4s and 4T. 4lo doesn't give him any score boost at all there.

da96103 · Jan 20, 2018

HanDomi said:
If Hanyu sticks to 5 quad program then he is not going to win. As simple as that. It's just asking for problems
If he goes with free with 3 quads, I am confident he will win
If 4 50/50

But he definitely should do short with 4s and 4T. 4lo doesn't give him any score boost at all there.

Will Yuzu be still the final group in SP as reigning World Champion or are they using this season's rankings only?

Mrs. P · Jan 20, 2018

da96103 said:
Will Yuzu be still the final group in SP as reigning World Champion or are they using this season's rankings only?

HEs still no. 1 in world standing so he's definitely going to be in the last group.

xeyra · Jan 20, 2018

da96103 said:
Will Yuzu be still the final group in SP as reigning World Champion or are they using this season's rankings only?

You don't use Season Rankings for start orders, only World Standing.

TontoK · Jan 20, 2018

Mrs. P said:
HEs still no. 1 in world standing so he's definitely going to be in the last group.

I must have something wrong - which wouldn't be a first, even today.

But I thought the last two groups were the top 12 "cream" in terms of ranking, and those skaters drew for SP spots.

So, in my imagining, all the top men could draw anywhere from the last two groups.

I'm looking at the SP draw from last years WC - and Chen, Boyang and Kolyada are in the next-to-last group... while skaters I think of as being not quite as good in terms of results (even a year ago) - Brown and Kovtun... being in the final group. Note: my perceptions of "better" skaters may not be reflected in whatever ranking system they use... but Chen had just finished 2 in GPF and had won 4CC...

I've googled for the rules on SP skating order, and I must not be hitting the proper key words, because I can't find anything official.

Mrs. P · Jan 20, 2018

TontoK said:
I must have something wrong - which wouldn't be a first, even today.

But I thought the last two groups were the top 12 "cream" in terms of ranking, and those skaters drew for SP spots.

So, in my imagining, all the top men could draw anywhere from the last two groups.

I'm looking at the SP draw from last years WC - and Chen, Boyang and Kolyada are in the next-to-last group... while skaters I think of as being not quite as good in terms of results (even a year ago) - Brown and Kovtun... being in the final group. Note: my perceptions of "better" skaters may not be reflected in whatever ranking system they use... but Chen had just finished 2 in GPF and had won 4CC...

I've googled for the rules on SP skating order, and I must not be hitting the proper key words, because I can't find anything official.

So basically there's a skate later/skate earlier group.

Edited....

Okay here it is: http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...igure-skating-rules/regulations-rules-fs/file

Rule 520, Drawing for Starting order

Point (d) states that the "highest ranking skaters" will draw for spots in the final group.
Then there's a draw for those who are next highest ranked for the second to final group
Then the rest of the skate later group draws for those middle spots
Then there's a draw for the skating earlier gorup, except that those who have no ranking will draw the earliest spots.

As for 2017 Worlds -- I believe at the time both Jason and Maxim were ranked among the top 6 skaters competing. Nathan had done well this season, but just hadn't racked up enough points to get in that later group.

Nathan will draw for the last group THIS time though:
1.) Yuzuru Hanyu
2.) Shoma Uno
3.) Javier Fernandez
4.) Mikhail Kolyada
5.) Nathan Chen
6.) Boyang Jin
---
7.) Alexei Bychenko
8.) Patrick Chen
9.) Dmitri Aliev (if he ends up going)
9./10.) Adam Rippon
10.) Alexander Samarin (if he is chosen)
11.) Deniss Vasiljevs
12.) Jorik Hendrickx

rhubarb · Jan 20, 2018

Well-deserved win by Javi:thumbsup:
Besides for the Flip, he had a great skate!

TontoK · Jan 20, 2018

Mrs. P said:
So basically there's a skate later/skate earlier group.

Edited....

Okay here it is: http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...igure-skating-rules/regulations-rules-fs/file

Rule 520, Drawing for Starting order

Point (d) states that the "highest ranking skaters" will draw for spots in the final group.
Then there's a draw for those who are next highest ranked for the second to final group
Then the rest of the skate later group draws for those middle spots
Then there's a draw for the skating earlier gorup, except that those who have no ranking will draw the earliest spots.

As for 2017 Worlds -- I believe at the time both Jason and Maxim were ranked among the top 6 skaters competing. Nathan had done well this season, but just hadn't racked up enough points to get in that later group.

Nathan will draw for the last group THIS time though:
1.) Yuzuru Hanyu
2.) Shoma Uno
3.) Javier Fernandez
4.) Mikhail Kolyada
5.) Nathan Chen
6.) Boyang Jin
---
7.) Alexei Bychenko
8.) Patrick Chen
9.) Dmitri Aliev (if he ends up going)
9./10.) Adam Rippon
10.) Alexander Samarin (if he is chosen)
11.) Deniss Vasiljevs
12.) Jorik Hendrickx

Thanks, Mrs P, for clearing that up.

I'm going to have to "learn up" on the World rankings system when I have some time.

On the surface, not knowing how the ranking system works, it seems odd that a guy who had just finished 2nd in the GPF and had beaten most of the major contenders at 4CC wouldn't even qualify for the Top 6. Of course, it was his first world's, so he wouldn't have any points that were allocated on that basis. I don't recall how he (or the Top 6) had done on the GP series that year, and if I did, it might make more sense.

A moot point now, but it does indicate a need for me to educate myself.

Mrs. P · Jan 20, 2018

Basically if you take time off (like Virtue or Moir) or came from junior (where earned ranking points are lower) it just take a bit of time to catch up points wise. Also if you do a lot of senior B competitions, that helps your world standing as well. It's not the perfect system to indicate how you rank relative to other skaters.

Maxim and Jason had the advantage of several solid senior international seasons. Let's not forget that Maxim is a past Euro medalist and made GPF one year. And Jason did a few senior B's last season as well as points from his 4th place finish in 2015 to keep his point total up.

2018 Olympic Season: Men's Figure Skating

fireovertheice

Rissa

fireovertheice

Rissa

AngelENTL

Bcash

Roast Toast

charlotte14

nekun

charlotte14

nekun

HanDomi

da96103

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

xeyra

Constant state

TontoK

Hot Tonto

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

rhubarb

TontoK

Hot Tonto

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

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