2017 CS Finlandia Ladies FS

psusanne said:

Mid 6's to 7's in each of the PCS categories seem reasonable. But you could also ask why Maria gets about 18 points more than Dabin. Is this too much? I don't know ... do jumps count too much and are spins undervalued? I don't think so. But there are a lot of things about this judging system we could discuss. With the current judging system a skater like f.e. Lipnitskaya never really received what she very likely deserved for her spins on TES. But did the spins affect her PCS? I'm sure the judges were impressed, so yes, I do think this affected her PCS and I agree with that. Figure skating is special imo, because there is more than one way to be successful, there are different ways to be a great skater. I think judges need something that they can truly admire, they are also fans after all. If everything is just nice and not special in any particular way they just don't type in the high numbers.
Carolina had errors on two jumping passes but then the judges obviously enjoyed themselves. I think that they are happy when they can give positive GOE's and admire a good skate, like we all do.

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Again, we are discussing just PCs. Was it fair to Dabin score 30% less in PCs than Caro?

As for truly admire... She can be truly admired in exibitions. Judges don´t need to truly admire, judges need to score fairly and not rob a gilr from her silver medal and a girl from her bronze medal just because they truly admire something.

leafygreens said:

Well it's a subjective part of scoring for the judges as well, so I don't know what that means. In my opinion you can tell a clear overall artistic quality difference with Kostner over other skaters. This quality should be rewarded. It makes performing the elements harder.

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This seems to imply a relationship between PCS and executing the elements. This relationship should go both ways. I think I agree with you too but I also think some who value an artistic impact get stuck and overlook the value and relationship between difficulty of choreography and PCS.

To be more direct...I do see a difference in Carolina and Masha in their execution of the choreography and it should be reflected in the score but to my eye...we're talking a couple of points. Not enough to make up for the noticeable errors.

I believe a well timed jump that is executed well can impact a performance's overall impact and connection with the audience. This can and should be reflected in PCS. Its just my opinion but I think crashing or other jump errors can also carry unintentional impact on a program so I think it can adversely affect a program. This too can and should be reflected in PCS .

moriel said:

Again, we are discussing just PCs. Was it fair to Dabin score 30% less in PCs than Caro?

As for truly admire... She can be truly admired in exibitions. Judges don´t need to truly admire, judges need to score fairly and not rob a gilr from her silver medal and a girl from her bronze medal just because they truly admire something.

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Mid 6's to 7's in each of the PCS categories seems reasonable for Dabin. If this is about 30% less in PCS (with the factoring) than Carolina then I have to say yes, I think that's fine. As far as I remember 0 is poor, 5 is average and 10 is outstanding. Dabins overall skating is surely above average but not close to outstanding. And you willfully misunderstand my usage of the word "admire". Carolina is obviously able to impress the judges with her skills and Dabin isn't, at least not to that degree.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I believe a well timed jump that is executed well can impact a performance's overall impact and connection with the audience. This can and should be reflected in PCS. Its just my opinion but I think crashing or other jump errors can also carry unintentional impact on a program so I think it can adversely affect a program. This too can and should be reflected in PCS .

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I agree with that. The crowd's reaction to a program is often very telling and judges are not immune to that as well.
Timing isn't only important when it comes to jumps, it's important for every executed technical element and this is reflected in the PCS. Falls are of course major disruptions but singled jumps or small errors on spins aren't. And there are mandatory deductions for falls. The question is - how many times do we want skaters to be punished for their errors? I have no easy answer to that. But there's no passage in the rulebook that I know of that says that falls should be reflected in the PCS.
I only know that quality was important in figure skating in the past. After figures there was at least the technical program where skaters had to do a f.e. mandatory double flip. Now the only real difference between the SP and the FS is that the duration and the number of elements is different. Surely, this makes things more comparable on paper, but does it really make it more fair or more comprehensible? My answer is I don't know and yes - I have no idea wether it's more fair or not now but I know that it's more comprehensible. I spend some time reading the rulebook, watching some of those ISU videos and I think I kind of get this judging system. Not that I think that it is particularly good or that I wouldn't want certain things to be different, but the skaters have to adapt to it. Medvedeva and her team are doing a great job on working this judging system to their advantage. But Carolina isn't bad at it either, she only has a different approach because of her age, experience and talent.
As I mentioned before, I think it's good that there is more than one way to achieve a good score with this judging system. This makes things much more interesting.

Sam-Skwantch said:

This seems to imply a relationship between PCS and executing the elements. This relationship should go both ways. I think I agree with you too but I also think some who value an artistic impact get stuck and overlook the value and relationship between difficulty of choreography and PCS.

To be more direct...I do see a difference in Carolina and Masha in their execution of the choreography and it should be reflected in the score but to my eye...we're talking a couple of points. Not enough to make up for the noticeable errors.

I believe a well timed jump that is executed well can impact a performance's overall impact and connection with the audience. This can and should be reflected in PCS. Its just my opinion but I think crashing or other jump errors can also carry unintentional impact on a program so I think it can adversely affect a program. This too can and should be reflected in PCS .

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Also should go both ways as in: Performing elements makes artistry harder. I´m pretty sure its easier to hit all the PCs points while performing 4 triples than while performing 7 triples, so that should be rewarded as well.

psusanne said:

Mid 6's to 7's in each of the PCS categories seems reasonable for Dabin. If this is about 30% less in PCS (with the factoring) than Carolina then I have to say yes, I think that's fine. As far as I remember 0 is poor, 5 is average and 10 is outstanding. Dabins overall skating is surely above average but not close to outstanding. And you willfully misunderstand my usage of the word "admire". Carolina is obviously able to impress the judges with her skills and Dabin isn't, at least not to that degree.

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I agree with Dabin's score indeed. What i disagree is Caro's score with that program. If she was any close to clean there, it would be (maybe) justified. But 3 with disruptive jumpfails?

psusanne said:

Mid 6's to 7's in each of the PCS categories seem reasonable. But you could also ask why Maria gets about 18 points more than Dabin. Is this too much? I don't know ... do jumps count too much and are spins undervalued? I don't think so. But there are a lot of things about this judging system we could discuss. With the current judging system a skater like f.e. Lipnitskaya never really received what she very likely deserved for her spins on TES. But did the spins affect her PCS? I'm sure the judges were impressed, so yes, I do think this affected her PCS and I agree with that. Figure skating is special imo, because there is more than one way to be successful, there are different ways to be a great skater. I think judges need something that they can truly admire, they are also fans after all. If everything is just nice and not special in any particular way they just don't type in the high numbers.
Carolina had errors on two jumping passes but then the judges obviously enjoyed themselves. I think that they are happy when they can give positive GOE's and admire a good skate, like we all do.

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A 17.19 point gap is certainly more understandable and reasonable than a 21.62 point gap. If the factoring of the PCS score were a smaller percentage, it might make more sense as well.

It seems to me quite strange that the system rewards skaters with a beautiful technique and performative quality who miss a combo in the SP and perform four triples in the FS (Kostner). Meanwhile performers of a still beautiful if not sublime quality who attempt to present work that is approaching the highest technical level (and, let's be clear: not at all without grace and artistry) are seemingly systematically held down (Dabin).

Should Dabin (or Li Zijun) just put the jumps to the side for a while and work on their artistry? Forget about the combo in the SP? Sorry, but in no world would that work for them.

Maybe that's because they are not as talented as La Reine Carolina, fine. But there is also clear bias shown on the judging panel. Carolina and Wagner will get PCS out the wazoo even if they bomb. As will all skaters with the pedigree bonus who the judges "admire." It's an open secret and pretty much everyone agrees that it's a part of the sport.

Of course jumps are not all, they are not meat nor drink, etc etc, but I think most people can agree that they are the most nerve-wracking and high risk elements. They often make or break a skate and a skater. They are crucial in setting singles and pairs skating apart from Ice Dance.

The sign to me that PCS scoring is next door to complete nonsense is that skaters almost always receive PCS marks within a 1.00 point range across all five. If the judges were doing their job, then a skater with above average Skating Skills and sublime Interpretation of the Music would be evaluated accordingly. Why don't we ever see a 6.25 in Skating Skills matched by a 9.00 in Interpretation? Or vice versa? For instance, why didn't Laurine's SP last year get into the 8's or 9's for Interpretation and Composition/Choreography? Because the PCS judging is broken and used to keep everybody in a pre-established order.

People argue that this is motivating for skaters like Dabin to encourage them to improve. In my opinion this is the opposite. Because Li Zijun will never be Ashley Wagner. And even though Li Zijun's artistry has improved (greatly) from 2013 until last season, her PCS seems to go down.

kevinVchicago said:

The sign to me that PCS scoring is next door to complete nonsense is that skaters almost always receive PCS marks within a 1.00 point range across all five.

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I think I read somewhere years ago that judges are supposed to do that, that there shouldn't be huge differences between the PCS categories. I don't agree with that either, because I think the skaters should see what the judges think they're good at. To get the chance to improve the aspects that aren't that good.
Fact is that some skaters are more talented than others, someone like Medvedeva could probably adapt quite easily to every judging system at this point (I'm not so sure about 20 year old Medvedeva, but that's another story).
I remember (yes I'm that old) when ski jumping decided to not judge the V-style differently. Most experts and fans thought that the classic style jumpers wouldn't stand a chance. But they adapted, learned the V-style over the summer and one of the really old guys even won a gold medal at the Olympics.
I always was a rather enthusiastic skier by the way, but I have close to zero talent. I still love it and I'm quite good at that, simply because I'm doing it a lot. But a career in racing wasn't meant to be (and I really envied some of my friends for their talent).
I think you focus too much on numbers. Look at the placement and the crowd's reaction to the skaters if you're really dumbfounded about the judges decisions. I don't want to say that I'm not sometimes dumbfounded but I still think that the judges get it right most of the time.

For some reason this forum decided not to work for me for a while. Did I write something forbidden ?

I was there all three days but let's talk about ladies. I like Carolina, I know she is lovely person and every other skaters like her. But - I have seen her skate better and get lower scores. I have a feeling she was rewarded because audience liked her. Only Emmi got more applauses than Caro. And I also think that she is not show fast any more.

Maria's win was deserved and I began to like her. I will not forget her to exict any more. She has learned to control her hands, even there is still room to improve, but improvement from last year is obvious. But she must forget tano jumps, her jumps look much better without hand up. I think she has not such a natural musicality as many others, that's why she should forget those getting more scores positions. But a positive feeling, and I don't care what other people think. I can change my mind and this young lady made me to do it.

I am happy I could see Alena Leonova skate clean. I even do not know, but I have liked her since I saw her skate for the first time and I have been little disappointed she cannot make it to big competitions any more. I can't see she will have chance any more.

Angela W. was a some US young skater, not any more. I am impressed.