Up with Women!

One thing I like about this forum is that there is no one standing up and saying women are so stupid that they are incapable of understanding the technicalities of figure skating, unlike NFL players like Panther’s Cam Newton who can’t seem to understand how ignorant HE is. :agree:

As a female, I give Cam the benefit of the doubt. Let's face it ESPN, NFL Network, FOX, et al they don't give the ladies on their crews a legit job to talk informative football. They're reduced to showing cleavage and asking the most boring unfootball like questions. The closest they get to talking the game is when they get to ask about injuries. They're there to make their male counterparts look good (and have something to ogle). CAM is not the problem. CAM was merely pointing out that it's weird to hear a woman ask an informed question about something like routes. I honestly in all of my years watching the sport cannot think of a time when a female journalist asked a question like that.

I'm sure I'm still in the minority when it comes to this, but that's how it came across to me. Yes, his tone was flippant, but to be fair he always sounds like a stereotypical stoner when he does these press conferences, so I didn't bristle at his tone or his comment.


And I'm not coming to his defense because I'm a fan of Cam's or the Panthers (I'm not), I'm just a fan of football and this is the LEAST offensive thing that the NFL didn't let slide... I wish they'd take as heavy a hand when one of their players actually abuses a woman.

Tonichelle said:

As a female, I give Cam the benefit of the doubt. Let's face it ESPN, NFL Network, FOX, et al they don't give the ladies on their crews a legit job to talk informative football. They're reduced to showing cleavage and asking the most boring unfootball like questions. The closest they get to talking the game is when they get to ask about injuries. They're there to make their male counterparts look good (and have something to ogle). CAM is not the problem. CAM was merely pointing out that it's weird to hear a woman ask an informed question about something like routes. I honestly in all of my years watching the sport cannot think of a time when a female journalist asked a question like that.

I'm sure I'm still in the minority when it comes to this, but that's how it came across to me. Yes, his tone was flippant, but to be fair he always sounds like a stereotypical stoner when he does these press conferences, so I didn't bristle at his tone or his comment.


And I'm not coming to his defense because I'm a fan of Cam's or the Panthers (I'm not), I'm just a fan of football and this is the LEAST offensive thing that the NFL didn't let slide... I wish they'd take as heavy a hand when one of their players actually abuses a woman.

Click to expand...

I am just touchy as I have been a feminist since deep into the last century and I get tired of people saying women cant be doctors, pilots, politicians, generals, NASA mathamaticians, etc. I have heard it all. I agree that it appears to me that networks still choose female reporters, be they medical experts or what have you, based on looks and not expertise. That's marketing. And that's sad.
I agree with you that abusive NFL types, be they abusive to anyone or any animal, should be hammered, not like Michael Vick who is allowed to be a sports commentator for Fox news, IIRC. If MV tried to talk with even the waterboy at a game, he should be shouted down for what he really is....

Back to CL. I dont know football but I assume a quarterback has to have a brain. What if CL had said, "Wow. How great is it that we are now allowed to have intellegent, knowledgeale female sports reporters? We have come along way."

Tonichelle said:

CAM was merely pointing out that it's weird to hear a woman ask an informed question about something like routes. I honestly in all of my years watching the sport cannot think of a time when a female journalist asked a question like that.

Click to expand...

Sorry but no, this is not a justification for this at all, if he was surprised that a woman might be able to ask a question like that it just makes him more sexist. He wouldn't have reacted in surprise if a man had asked him that question, so why is it so shocking that a woman does?

I have spent all of my life involved in male-dominated sports and the level of suspicion/dismissal that you get from the men is never-ending and disgusting. I've had men accuse me of only watching certain sports "because of the cute guys" (while they're watching the ladies' tennis and drooling over the short skirts), I've had men completely ignore my remarks on what was going forward in a game only to repeat EXACTLY what I just said a couple of minutes later (and have other men then say "oh that's a good point!"). Being a woman involved in a male-dominated sport - whether as a journalist, a fan, or a participant - is an uphill battle and we don't need people making excuses for this jerkass.

Now, the fact the NFL has come down on him hard and let actual DV abusers keep playing is another matter entirely but they are both facets of the same problem.

karne said:

Now, the fact the NFL has come down on him hard and let actual DV abusers keep playing is another matter entirely but they are both facets of the same problem.

Click to expand...

:sad21: :agree:

karne said:

Sorry but no, this is not a justification for this at all, if he was surprised that a woman might be able to ask a question like that it just makes him more sexist. He wouldn't have reacted in surprise if a man had asked him that question, so why is it so shocking that a woman does?

Click to expand...

Because rightly or wrongly in those press rooms women journalists DON'T TYPICALLY [get to] ask that question. That's not a fault of HIM being sexist but the system (which you in your professional experience shared great insight). As a female myself, I was shocked that they let a woman ask such an intelligent question - not because I think my sex is sport stupid. I know we're not. I understand football better than I understand figure skating (which is actually pretty easy since the gist of the sport stays the same year in and year out and not on the whim of whatever judging panel is there that day). Could he have said it better? Yeah, definitely. He was flippant and sounded like he was stoned. That's his maturity not a gender argument at all.

Cam's an idiot in the press room, but he plays good ball. They don't hire QB's based on how well they present themselves or talk - some owners do, but not all. Granted, QBs are most often the face of the team so they are held to a higher standard of conduct, maturity, intelligence than say a linebacker.

I stand by what I said, as a woman I see this issue more of an issue for the sports networks who reduce women into being completely ignorant of the game. Kudos to whomever the journalist was representing. They hired a decent journalist who knows something about the game and they let her ask the good question and didn't have her male counterpart (if she has one) do it "for her". As a woman I just don't see why THIS is the issue to get my panties in a wad over (and yes I'm sure that's somehow degrading to women and I have to turn in my card now.) I saw way more women coming to Ray Rice's defense for punching his wife (gf? fiance?) in the face and knocking her out because they said she was acting "a fool" than I see women shrugging off Cam Newton's comment. So, yes, I do think this is a ridiculous argument when there are actually issues within the NFL that aren't addressed nearly enough or as seriously.



Ya know, in the 80s when women mushers were starting to really be a thing in the Iditarod, a lot of men had an issue with it. Women wouldn't be able to keep up, weren't as good as men at dog training. Then Susan Butcher came along - and she got a lot of stupid questions from journalists men and women. Instead of creating a media campaign about how butthurt the comments made her or how it was unfair, she buckled down and kept winning a race that was once touted as only something a man could win. There are no handicaps or different rules in mushing. Nothing based on gender at all. The best dog driver and team wins. As Susan continued to win or come darn near close, most everyone shut up and women just became mushers. Only person who continued to be butthurt was a musher who still holds the records of most wins, but even he has come out and said she was one of the best things to happen to the sport. I wish more women would learn from the women like Susan who instead of making a huge fuss over their perceived injustice that they use their actions to speak and come out on top. I have more respect for that.

I know a lot of women sports journalists and they ask those questions. There are a ton of Jourdanes across the country. They just don't all cover pro football or are on tv.

Several of them cover this sport we all love. -- Nancy Armour, Jo-Anne Barnes. The few airheads you see on television shouldn't speak for the hundreds of women's sports journos who do their job well day in and day out. They also endure the same sexism, it's just not has high profile.

Check it this awesome essay from Stefanie Loh, who covers college sports (specially Washington State University) for The Seattle Times. https://www.seattletimes.com/sports...-deal-with-a-sexist-comment-like-cam-newtons/

I'm not denying it exists. The point is - the sexism lies within the profession SHE is in, not the athlete she asked the question to. Most of the time those women aren't the ones that get to ask those questions. I've watched this sport my entire life, press conferences too, it's male dominated not because women journalists don't want to do the job, they just aren't allowed - by their powers that be, not the NFL and not the athletes.



It's like watching Terry Gannon when he commentated figure skating for ABC. When he first started, he didn't know really much about the sport at all, but he educated himself and learned about it. And when he did that people were *happily* shocked and surprised. And we all made comments about it as the internet took off and these forums came into being. I remember that being brought up time and again. It's even in one of Christine Brennan's books. It's not sexism to point out that "hey for once a guy in commentary took figure skating seriously" (I mean Al Trautwig certainly doesn't). That's how I took Cam's comment. His tone was stupid, but he had that tone throughout the presser so I don't think it was brought on by any sort of sexism. I still think he was high on something.

Ex-Seahawk John Moffitt weighs in.....(I wonder if he drags his knuckles?)
Women don't know football- most guys barely do. Stop coming into male spaces and demanding respect.. guys care about the substance of things not the appearence. Just because networks like a sexy sideline reporter for you to look at doesn't mean cam is sexist for questioning the authenticity of her game knowledge- he was laughing because she was fed that question like most of her kind are. If women are so knowledgeable with a game they can't play let them do play by play or color commentary.. but no, and women don't even see that it's not cam but the network that's sexist, or just can't lie about the truth. Women don't really know the game- they are incapable. Yet in this society where a women can do anything a man can do and men can do nothing this is a rock and a hard place. Personally, I thought it was funny too!

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/10/08/john-moffitt-cam-newton-sexist-comments/

I would love to see him draw a female surgeon for an emergency surgery. She could say, "Gee...I am just a women...I cant be a doctor...how could I be expected to understand those 8 years of skool? Well, lets cut this thingy off....."

I would appreciate it if someone out there would explain to me why these neanderthals think football is so tough to understand? Is it tougher than med school? Tougher than mathamatics? Tougher than astro physics? Tougher than being a good airline pilot?
Sorry.....I dont think so.....
Yes, Kudus to Terry Gannon......I never saw HIS head swell up.....
Maybe if someone gave me millions of dollars and women through themselves at me to be a gladiator, MY head would swell......I am just thankful to my female doctors who ARE very intellegent.

STEM Ladies get harassed too. And it is not just by old, powerful dinosaurs, or stoner QBs:

https://mobile.twitter.com/LorenaAB...-10-01-2017-10-07-2017-Difficult-Week-Edition

She is this lady:
https://www.seas.gwu.edu/lorena-barba

And of course this well documented case. A Scientific American editorial blasts ex-Google idiot James Damore, and discusses the flaws in sexist and racist logic.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/google-engineer-fired-for-sexist-memo-isnt-a-hero/

And this from a guy in a field where women were some of the original innovators and pioneers. He was not only insulting, he was ignorant of the history of his field. For example:

Ada Byron, Countess Lovelace, Founder of Scientific Computing
https://www.sdsc.edu/ScienceWomen/lovelace.html

Amazing Admiral Grace Hopper, Inventer of COBOL and the compiler ..and the bug.
http://www.amazingwomeninhistory.com/amazing-grace-hopper-computer-programmer/

The Mathematicians/ Programmers of NASA
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...k-women-nasa-female-scientists-hidden-figures

Even in gaming, that bastion of guys, Roberta Williams
http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com/index.php/site/interviews/127/

There are jerks of Cam Newton's sort all over.

I am resigned (sort of) at 70 to not ever being a real person in this USA. But I can assure you that keeping your mouth shut and striving harder really does not change a lot of minds in fields where there is no objectively timed proof you are as good or better than the average man.

Butcher is outstanding, but she could let her results speak for her. The rest of us need to call out this crap when it is particularly egregious.

I might or might not have given Newton a pass, but not Moffitt.

Yeah Moffitt's comment is even worse than Newton's. Wow. I can probably present him with TONS of reporters who "know football."

It's kinda a shame cause he actually had some goodwill a few years ago when he explained why he retired early: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/s...or-john-moffitt-the-money-wasnt-worth-it.html

Here's the thing -- Jourdane had covered the team for a year. This is not some greenie reporter who just showed up to her first press conference. I get that athletes might not be akin to read everything in the press, but I mean, come on...she was at the games, the press conferences....how could Cam be ignorant that "she knew football?"

Because it is all about him maybe?

dorispulaski said:

STEM Ladies get harassed too. And it is not just by old, powerful dinosaurs, or stoner QBs:

https://mobile.twitter.com/LorenaAB...-10-01-2017-10-07-2017-Difficult-Week-Edition

She is this lady:
https://www.seas.gwu.edu/lorena-barba

And of course this well documented case. A Scientific American editorial blasts ex-Google idiot James Damore, and discusses the flaws in sexist and racist logic.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/google-engineer-fired-for-sexist-memo-isnt-a-hero/

And this from a guy in a field where women were some of the original innovators and pioneers. He was not only insulting, he was ignorant of the history of his field. For example:

Ada Byron, Countess Lovelace, Founder of Scientific Computing
https://www.sdsc.edu/ScienceWomen/lovelace.html

Amazing Admiral Grace Hopper, Inventer of COBOL and the compiler ..and the bug.
http://www.amazingwomeninhistory.com/amazing-grace-hopper-computer-programmer/

The Mathematicians/ Programmers of NASA
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...k-women-nasa-female-scientists-hidden-figures

Even in gaming, that bastion of guys, Roberta Williams
http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com/index.php/site/interviews/127/

There are jerks of Cam Newton's sort all over.

I am resigned (sort of) at 70 to not ever being a real person in this USA. But I can assure you that keeping your mouth shut and striving harder really does not change a lot of minds in fields where there is no objectively timed proof you are as good or better than the average man..

Click to expand...

As the husband of a scientist and past professor, this behavior toward educated intelligent women makes me sick. I am glad my wife got out of academia before the age of the internet and the ease of anonymous bullying and harassment. But it makes me just as sick to hear about Harvey Weinstein and what he got away with for years with women who perhaps thought they had to stay and take the harassment to further their careers. I may have to watch “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” series again just to enjoy how Lisbeth dealt with her harassers!

I have no answers to all of this. Just intolerance. Someone makes a mistake like this CN person, you let them know how wrong they are and they apologize and if they dont screw up again, life goes on. If they keep screwing up, they need to be delt with.
( Read a good article in my National Geographic about Jane Goodall looking back at her life. According to JG, one of her supporters, funders and mentors was Lewis Leakey, of all people. Though married, he told JG he loved her and wanted her.....she didnt lead him on in the slightest and he backed off.... and thankfully her work continued....anyway, National Geographic, who funded her, was continually trying to get pics of her as a beautiful women living in the African bush ...using the "human interest" side of her story to make her work more "interesting" for their magazine. She hated doing the pics of her but saw that it would help her cause.)

Speaking up is important. It tells other women there are still jerks in the world. It is not your fault if someone behaves like that to you.

You would think that is obvious, but there are still idiots that ask the victim whether they behaved in some way or dressed some way. There are jerks. When they behave like jerks, it is not your fault.

And it is good to know you are not alone.

I don't think equality is the issue in most cases. Some people just couldn't help being an ***. My cousin went out on a date and a guy told her it is refreshing to find someone who capable of paying her own dinner. He said he was fed up to be the one paying for the meals. But when my cousin told him she could do more and asked to pay for dinner, he got offended.

Harvey Weinstein's case shows just how prevalent this all is.
Even A-listers like Angelina Jolie didn't dare to go public, and there were a lot of enablers there.

There was a huge power difference as well, and now that we finally see all he has done, it only shows how many women are victims of this behaviour.

Tulipstar said:

Harvey Weinstein's case shows just how prevalent this all is.
Even A-listers like Angelina Jolie didn't dare to go public, and there were a lot of enablers there.

There was a huge power difference as well, and now that we finally see all he has done, it only shows how many women are victims of this behaviour.

Click to expand...

But ... it is unfair to lump the behavior of Cam Newton (who made a comment that was uncalled for) under the same umbrella as the behavior of Harvey Weinstein (who has been a sexual predator).

I understand why Cam Newton received criticism for his words.

But Weinstein was a physical menace to women.

Tulipstar said:

Harvey Weinstein's case shows just how prevalent this all is.
Even A-listers like Angelina Jolie didn't dare to go public, and there were a lot of enablers there.

There was a huge power difference as well, and now that we finally see all he has done, it only shows how many women are victims of this behaviour.

Click to expand...

So true. He appears to be "smart" enough to pray on stars early in their carrerrs, like Gwyneth Paltrow in 1996 when she was making "Emma". It now appears that there was general well known and collective knowledge of his transgressions for quite awhile in Hollywood, even leading to snide remarks about him on air at the Oscars...... I am not throwing rocks at all the women that didnt stand up before this last incident....I am sure that without proof, he would have trashed their carrerrs....but it is just saw that this type of "casting couch" behavior has permiated our society for decades and still seems to be there in all facets of our society....

ice coverage said:

But ... it is unfair to lump the behavior of Cam Newton (who made a comment that was uncalled for) under the same umbrella as the behavior of Harvey Weinstein (who has been a sexual predator).

I understand why Cam Newton received criticism for his words.

But Weinstein was a physical menace to women.

Click to expand...

Yes, I understand that. Who doesn't?

Sexism is very prevalent in media, and both are the result of that (one much worse than the other).

Tulipstar said:

Yes, I understand that. Who doesn't?

Sexism is very prevalent in media, and both are the result of that (one much worse than the other).

Click to expand...

Your previous post gave the impression that you did not understand the unfairness of lumping the two together.