Who is your favourite skater under Eteri?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Nobody is forced to go to her or stay with her as a coach. They are welcome to skate with more lenient coaches. They won't be pushed as hard and thus not necessarily be as strong competitors as Eteri's students are but they'll be less prone to injury.

But she works her students hard and the results speak for themselves. It is a risk that these skaters take in order to not only dominate on the World level, but also distinguish themselves in a ridiculously saturated Russian field.

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We are talking about children. It's one thing for adults to put their bodies at risk and to be pushed by other adults to do so, but when it comes to kids, it's a gray area. Kids don't understand risk versus reward or that decisions have long-term consequences. Parents and coaches can oftentimes make very bad decisions on behalf of kids who just want to obey.

That's not meant as a criticism of Eteri at all, either - more of a problem with your argument that these kids have total autonomy and can leave at any time if they don't want to risk injury.

andromache said:

What's wrong with doubting or being critical of coaching methods or decisions? Coaches aren't perfect - they all make mistakes. And it's clear that in a school as competitive as Eteri's she's not going to nurture or help anyone through their struggles (the way that Mishin stood by and still stands by Liza, for example) - there's enough talent that her students are expendable to her. It's an attitude that some find to be acceptable and others do not find acceptable. There's no need to defend Eteri's honor anytime someone criticizes her - she's not your wife or your mother.

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That is fair criticism of a coach to you?

That is nothing but an unfunded interpretation of yours of how she thinks - which you can't know for sure, since you are not sitting in her head. If her students were apparently so expandable to her, why did she keep Polina, who is "going down with injuries"? And didn't she take in Alyona Kostornaya after had a really bad injury as well? Or is keeping Anna Shcherbakova despite her current injury?

Clear and fair ciriticism of a coaching team would be questioning a music choice for a skater, choreo, or a layout (like Waka & her team putting her weakest jump, the 3F, in her SP instead of her strong 3Lo). Making a statement like "her skaters are just expendable to her" is an unfair judgement of her character you can't have any 'proof' of.

And no, Eteri is not my wife or mom. I'm not even a fan of hers. But an unfair statement towards her is an unfair statement, and I don't need to be a fan to see it.

Li'Kitsu said:

That is fair criticism of a coach to you?

That is nothing but an unfunded interpretation of yours of how she thinks - which you can't know for sure, since you are not sitting in her head. If her students were apparently so expandable to her, why did she keep Polina, who is "going down with injuries"? And didn't she take in Alyona Kostornaya after had a really bad injury as well? Or is keeping Anna Shcherbakova despite her current injury?

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She blamed Polina's injury on a hereditary condition, which is not true. She took no responsibility for Adian's injury and blamed his attitude. When skaters have lost their jumps from puberty, they leave her - is it because they no longer like Eteri for some random reason or is it because Eteri does not support them through their struggles?

You might not like my interpretation, but it is not unfounded. I'll be very happy when I see a skater struggle under Eteri and receive enough support from her that they are able to get back to 100% and continue to compete with her coaching.

andromache said:

I'll be very happy when I see a skater struggle under Eteri and receive enough support from her that they are able to get back to 100% and continue to compete with her coaching.

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Yes, Kostornaya's skating was simply sunshine and roses when she switched over to Eteri, just sunshine and roses.

oh please... citing a skater doing JGP now.... isn't going to prove your point. I think andromache has a fair point.... these athletes are really young and growing.

I can only talk about what I know and I have said I don't know enough about Eteri... but many people here are concerned about Gogolev's training and if he should attempt all these big jumps at such young age.... and Orser has indeed explained how they take that very seriously and are very careful with him, especially with quads which he is not doing very often.

To me, a great coach, is someone who can learn from his/her students specific situations and adapt training conditions to each individual... some skaters are more injury prone than others to start with... so what do you do with them? You can certainly just say, well you need to do x amount in practice like everyone or else you won't make it, or you can also try to find creative ways to allow progress while being cautious.

We see it constantly in my field.. some mentors have injury-free studios and others don't have such a great record....

As I said, I am not making a judgment on Eteri as I don't know enough, but speaking generally as I have seen many talents in my field being ruined by injuries, often due to a specific kind of training, while it seems that other mentors produce well-trained and healthy individuals.

moriel said:

Yep, she was hit by puberty and her performance suffered.
She left Eteri. Then she kept skating poorly, got injured and retired.

Ofc somehow Eteri's fault.


Overall, Eteri seems to have so many injured skaters and blabla basically because she has MANY top skaters. What other coach has so many top skaters under his/her tutelage? So if 1/3rd of the Eteri girls get injured, suddenly thats a lot of people. If 1/3rd of orser or hamada skaters get injured, thats like 1 person, thats ok.

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Thank you for my 3333rd thumb up!

4everchan said:

oh please... citing a skater doing JGP now.... isn't going to prove your point. I think andromache has a fair point....

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I want to see a skater supported!
-So and so
That doesn't count because random.

Interesting

So how does that work exactly? Since we don't know these arbitrary conditions where support doesn't count even if skater was in really bad condition and got the support necessary to return please do inform us - only blondes but no brunettes? Are the red-heads an exception? Only right-handed skaters but not lefthanded? How about ambidextrous?

Now for the big question - blue, green or brown eyes?

moriel said:

Just because your favourite skater had weight/puberty issues, that does not mean the coach is the devil.

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Did Pitkeev had weight problems?
Did Zagitova had weight problems?
Did Tsurskaya had weight problems?
Did Shcherbakova had weight problems?

No, they didn't and yet all of them have been having skeletal injuries under Tutberidze's tutelage.

tars said:

Did Pitkeev had weight problems?
Did Zagitova had weight problems?
Did Tsurskaya had weight problems?
Did Shcherbakova had weight problems?

No, they didn't and yet all of them have been having skeletal injuries under Tutberidze's tutelage.

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So under other coaches skaters don't have any injuries? Only under Eteri?

tars said:

Did Pitkeev had weight problems?
Did Zagitova had weight problems?
Did Tsurskaya had weight problems?
Did Shcherbakova had weight problems?

No, they didn't and yet all of them have been having skeletal injuries under Tutberidze's tutelage.

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You forgot Shelepen. She also got injured while having Tutberidze. And Lipnitskaya had concussion in the season before the Olympic season.

4everchan said:

oh please... citing a skater doing JGP now.... isn't going to prove your point. I think andromache has a fair point.... these athletes are really young and growing.

I can only talk about what I know and I have said I don't know enough about Eteri... but many people here are concerned about Gogolev's training and if he should attempt all these big jumps at such young age.... and Orser has indeed explained how they take that very seriously and are very careful with him, especially with quads which he is not doing very often.

To me, a great coach, is someone who can learn from his/her students specific situations and adapt training conditions to each individual... some skaters are more injury prone than others to start with... so what do you do with them? You can certainly just say, well you need to do x amount in practice like everyone or else you won't make it, or you can also try to find creative ways to allow progress while being cautious.

We see it constantly in my field.. some mentors have injury-free studios and others don't have such a great record....

As I said, I am not making a judgment on Eteri as I don't know enough, but speaking generally as I have seen many talents in my field being ruined by injuries, often due to a specific kind of training, while it seems that other mentors produce well-trained and healthy individuals.

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What is your field to be exact?

andromache said:

What's wrong with doubting or being critical of coaching methods or decisions? Coaches aren't perfect - they all make mistakes. And it's clear that in a school as competitive as Eteri's she's not going to nurture or help anyone through their struggles (the way that Mishin stood by and still stands by Liza, for example) - there's enough talent that her students are expendable to her. It's an attitude that some find to be acceptable and others do not find acceptable. There's no need to defend Eteri's honor anytime someone criticizes her - she's not your wife or your mother.

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It's a lazy complaint. You can say whatever you want about Eteri but:

1) it's much easier not facing injured skaters when you're coaching 2-3 skaters like Frank Carroll, Kori Ade and all your idols are doing.

2) It's proved to be much more difficult to raise skaters from 10-11 years old, sometimes even built from the ground. Puberty is a thing for everyone. In US at 13 years the girls aren't able to land even triple jumps cleanly, with Eteri they are attempting quads. This point isn't even something that she really wants but she has to, because that's how it works in Russia, you have to be the best all the time, you can't develop a skater at a slower pace.

There aren't real proves that Eteri's method gets skaters injured, it's statistics: when you're training like 20-30 students at that level, 4-5 injuries are normal.

Then as i said many times Eteri isn't the solution for every single person in the world, it's simply not possible, but the success rate is higher than any other coach.

Lana05 said:

So under other coaches skaters don't have any injuries? Only under Eteri?

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Also, Shelepen had serious ankle injuries and virtually quit at 17, Lipnitskaya before 2014 (fractures, feet injuries, concussions, etc..) - these are six top quality skaters with top quality bodies having serious muscular/skeletal problems under one coach in 5 years period.

I'm not sure, I know many coaches with so many injuried skaters in such short period of time? :think:

silverfoxes said:

I was feeling depressed reading this thread because it's obvious that the men might as well not exist to most people here. Adian may as well be forgotten after all he went through. In the current group, Moris did great at Worlds (underscored because he now skates for Georgia, though) and Alexey Erokhov is also getting better and better. He won both his JGPs, but almost nobody noticed or cared. Ilia is also very charming...hope he will get his 3A soon.

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I don't follow men nearly as much as I follow ladies but Erokhov was absolutely enthralling and a very nice skater all around. I like Ilia too.

Li'Kitsu said:

Yuzu never competed with a concussion. He was checked for that before his skate at 2014 CoC. But well, if you think you know better then basically every top level coach out there right now, have it your way.

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Regardless, yes I still think that going out to skate after a serious blow to the head which resulted in 5 wipeouts was a bad idea.

Li'Kitsu said:

Okay.

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Where exactly did I say she ruins all her skaters? Saying Eteri has a record of breaking some of her skaters is not the same thing. Semantics matter and deliberately twisting my words to suit your agenda is a waste of my time and yours if you want to have a constructive conversation.

moriel said:

Yep, she was hit by puberty and her performance suffered.
She left Eteri. Then she kept skating poorly, got injured and retired.

Ofc somehow Eteri's fault.

Overall, Eteri seems to have so many injured skaters and blabla basically because she has MANY top skaters. What other coach has so many top skaters under his/her tutelage? So if 1/3rd of the Eteri girls get injured, suddenly thats a lot of people. If 1/3rd of orser or hamada skaters get injured, thats like 1 person, thats ok.

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Lack of support was Shelepen's reasoning for leaving her. Same with Lipnitskaya. Tarasenko also left her because of his back injuries. And yeah, people are going to notice if many top skaters get serious injuries under a certain coach. Just because she has a bigger stable doesn't make it better.

tars said:

Also, Shelepen had serious ankle injuries and virtually quit at 17, Lipnitskaya before 2014 (fractures, feet injuries, concussions, etc..) - these are six top quality skaters with top quality bodies having serious muscular/skeletal problems under one coach in 5 years period.

I'm not sure, I know many coaches with so many injuried skaters in such short period of time? :think:

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Because skaters at that age from different countries are literally unknown, and they can easily work on the jumps after the puberty because no one is pushing them to compete that early.

There are so many unknown injuries you don't even know because those skaters aren't famous.

What happened to Tara Lipinski after the Olympics?

Tolstoj said:

It's a lazy complaint. You can say whatever you want about Eteri but:

1) it's much easier not facing injured skaters when you're coaching 2-3 skaters like Frank Carroll, Kori Ade and all your idols are doing.

2) It's proved to be much more difficult to raise skaters from 10-11 years old, sometimes even built from the ground. Puberty is a thing for everyone. In US at 13 years old female skaters aren't doing even triple jumps, with Eteri they are attempting quads. This point isn't even something that she really wants but she has to, because that's how it works in Russia, you have to be the best all the time, you can't develop a skater at a slower pace.

There aren't real proves that Eteri's method gets skaters injured, it's statistics: when you're training like 20-30 students at that level, 4-5 injuries are normal.

She is able to hold even weak skaters, if those want to work (she's maybe not the best psychologist, i'll give you that): look at Moris Kvitelashvili.

Then as i said many times Eteri isn't the solution for every single person in the world, it's simply not possible, but the success rate is higher than any other coach.

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These are all fair points just as unflattering statistics presented by other posters and myself.
I think, it's the matter of finding a golden mean between looking after young pupils' health and being demanding, innovative and successful. It's a bit bothering, we (and Eteri) may find it out only in even longer period of time and injuries, but maybe there are no other ways to achieve excellence?

Maybe between 2018 and 2022 Eteri will have 0 injuried skaters, because she's acquired enough knowledge already? :think:

Yatagarasu said:

I want to see a skater supported!
-So and so
That doesn't count because random.

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Kostornaya had never even skated internationally before until working with Eteri. Her skating can hardly be judged as having been "struggling" when she had never before had major success. (FWIW, I like Kostornaya's polish and expression, but her lack of speed kills me.)

Polina S., Adian, Yulia, Serafima - all had pretty good to overwhelming success at the junior or senior level with Eteri. They then began to struggle or got injured, and subsequently were never again able to find success. Liza T. struggled immensely with puberty, and has had more struggles since winning her World title, but Mishin has always supported her, including bringing her from the low point of 2013-2014 to winning a world title in 2015. What is even worse is that Eteri does not take any responsibility - she blames puberty or the student's attitude.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Polina T. I adore her skating, so I hope she is able to make a comeback under Eteri or another coach.

ETA: FWIW, I couldn't care less about the number of students who get injured under Eteri. I agree with her defenders here - it's only because Eteri has so many students that it seems like so many of them get injured. My point is that she has yet to support her students through struggles (not counting if the student struggled under another coach and Eteri fixed it). Nathan Chen has a long history of injuries and bad hips - Rafael has helped him through it and he is better than ever (I imagine that Eteri would have seriously ended Nathan Chen's career if she was his coach - his body is delicate). Adam Rippon was also injured recently, and is almost back to his top shape under Raf. Kavaguti/Smirnov had injury after injury and still found success and moments of greatness with Moskvina. Nina Mozer has tons of talented pairs, and still the ever-injured, not always technically-up-to-par Stolbova/Klimov get her support even after disappointing results.

Plenty of skaters need a major change after struggling for a long time under their coach and find success that way. But just as many skaters stick it out under their coach, get through it, and find success. Oddly enough, despite her many, many students, Eteri's current and former students have yet to regain their success after a period of injury or other difficulty.

Polina T is seniors and Daria P in juniors

Nearly all skaters had injuries. Nathan Chen, Tursynbaeva, Hanyu, Miahara, Edmund and etc. And many skaters train in a smaller field. So compared to them I think Eteri has the best statistics. Goncharenko with her girl(forgot her name), Buianova with Sotnikova, Tsareva with Pogorilaya, Caroll with Gold, who had only 1 skater competing internationally.