Phil Hersh on the season so far | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Phil Hersh on the season so far

Ender

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Chan and Kostner both had best skating skills and jump technique of their generations respectively. Both have classic style. If we don’t take the international records into account, I’d say they’re quite even in their genders.
 

karne

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Still not seeing any actual justification from him about Zhou being a "lock" other than potential.
 

Yatagarasu

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Still not seeing any actual justification from him about Zhou being a "lock" other than potential.

- his URs aren't getting called, which boosts his TES by a lot
- if he can skate even remotely cleanly, his PCS will start rising, especially with Fed push.

He is pretty much a lock. I am not happy about it, but he is.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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- his URs aren't getting called, which boosts his TES by a lot
- if he can skate even remotely cleanly, his PCS will start rising, especially with Fed push.

He is pretty much a lock. I am not happy about it, but he is.

His URs were called in his most recent competition, Finlandia.

His strength over the others is his base value.

Like, the guy can do a quad lutz, no matter how much his critics would love to see it called as UR for prerotation or whatever.

US should medal (bronze) in both dance and team.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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No, they were not, not in the FS where he had between 2 to 4. Not a single one. A 'clean' FS with his TES is more then enough to make him a lock.

FYI, it was the same technical specialist and technical controller as the SP, where 2 out of 3 jumping passes received a UR.

I know certain non-fans of his would personally would love to see him dinged for URs most of the time. But it's unlikely. And nevertheless even with UR quads he still outscores most of the other men. As we saw with Jin winning Finlandia.
 

karne

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And Zhou's TCS is still only the 4th highest of the US men so far this season. If you remove Chen from the equation, he was still 11 points behind Aaron and 9 behind Brown - and only 1 ahead of Rippon.

Zhou is not a lock.
 

draqq

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Phil's words about Nathan are being taken out of context.

Excerpts from this article (emphases added):

.... Chen established himself among the world's top skaters when he topped Hanyu in the free skate at last season's Grand Prix Final (Hanyu won the event for a record fourth straight time) and then beat Hanyu for the Four Continents Championship title on the 2018 Olympic rink in South Korea. Hanyu had the last (and definitive) word at the World Championships, rebounding from a subpar short program with a brilliant free skate to win worlds for the second time, while Chen stumbled to sixth overall. ...

But for trying and cleanly landing his first quadruple loop in competition (and then successfully doing another three weeks later), Chen was unremarkable (by the standard he set last season) in both his Challenger Series win (U.S. International) and his second (by 11 points) to two-time world champion Javier Fernandez of Spain in the Japan Open. But he still is light years ahead of every other U.S. man.

Phil made note of Nathan's impressive results from last season.

And Phil made note that Nathan's quad loop is remarkable.
["But" being a synonym here for "except."]

The second passage that I have quoted above is from the section in which Phil discusses which U.S. men will make the U.S. Olympic team.
What Phil finds unremarkable are Nathan's results (aside from the quad loop) so far this season -- in comparison to the standard that Nathan set last season.
"But he still is light years ahead of every other U.S. man."

I question his use of "by the standard he set last season" because it doesn't really say much. A fairer comparison would be to contrast his performances now to his past performances during the same time in the season. I mean, by any standard that a skater set last season - which would be their personal best in 2016-17 - everything would be "unremarkable" at this point in time. Hanyu is unremarkable by the standard he set (at Worlds). Fernandez is unremarkable by the standard he set (at Euros). Jin, Chan, Kolyada, name your pick.

I would have just said that Chen is "on the right track" this early in the season. In fact, on the flipside, I would be very concerned with skaters who would have been "remarkable" right now (and that includes Mirai). Unless you're a jumping phenom like Medvedeva who never misses anything, I worry about a skater being this fit now and then having to maintain it throughout the rest of the Olympic season.
 
Joined
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Sorry to bring back the past but I have just realized Kim only won her big titles in North America and never won big titles in Europe...

I guess it depends on which titles we consider "big." She won Grand Prix finals in St. Petersburg and in Turin, Italy (also in Tokyo). She won Grand Prix events in Russia and in France (twice).

Well, if you were to look at their international records, I'd have to disagree. Look, I love Carolina but, to say that she comes from a weaker Fed than Patrick, would be an understatement. Patrick has 3 World Titles, 3 4CC Titles, 2 Olympic Silver Medals and 9 National Titles.....

Kostner's record is pretty impressive, too, though. 6 World medals including one gold, 5 European titles, 1 Olympic medal (bronze) and 8 national titles.

What I think makes Patrick unique is that he was the first to realize the importance of edging skills, footwork and transitions in the IJS, and that he was the first to add quads to all this amazing stuff. He was so much ahead of his time that even if he fell the scores worked out in his favor.
 
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Yatagarasu

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FYI, it was the same technical specialist and technical controller as the SP, where 2 out of 3 jumping passes received a UR.
I know certain non-fans of his would personally would love to see him dinged for URs most of the time. But it's unlikely. And nevertheless even with UR quads he still outscores most of the other men. As we saw with Jin winning Finlandia.

Boyang was all over the place, and it's the start of the season. We'll see if he'll outscore him when it counts. I am not sure which "most" of the other man he can outscore, in terms of the top guys, but we'll see about that too in the end though personally if he outscored Chiddy with his uncalled URs? Now let me tell you, I'd laugh myself out of this galaxy. Wouldn't that make for a 'fun' Olympic team event.

As for being dinged for the URs, yes, it is unlikely. So he can freely underrotate all he likes. Great relief of pressure that. Especially at US Nats, talk about a bonus. Either way, I do think he's a lock for the Olympics place. The others can either try and politic on their own though I think it's pointless, USFSA wants Vincent, or simply fight it out for the 3rd spot which is how all of this will end.
 

Violet Bliss

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What I think makes Patrick unique is that he was the first to figure out that the IJS was ready specifically to reward edging skills, footwork and transitions,

And then IDU cut out one step sequence from the SP and reduce one in the LP to a measly 2 points.

and that he was the first to add quads to all this amazing stuff. He was so much ahead of his time that even if he fell the scores worked out in his favor.

And his head was called for winning with a fall. Then Hanyu caught up with his quads and falls, and it became OK to fall and win. Now with the multi-quad youngsters on the scene, falls are expected from the top Men. And they don't even need the amazing skating stuff to receive high PCS.

Meanwhile, Patrick continues to elevate his unrewarded amazing stuff with quads.
 

icedinn

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you may disagree with my statement but assigning thoughts to him personally is unfair and uncool...

Yes it is, just like your bias towards Patrick and comparing a man skater to a woman skater. Also unfair and cool...
 

klutzy

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Feb 18, 2014
This reads like a worst-case, but not impossible, scenario rather than the most realistic one--though, yeah, Kostner is overscored. I tend to think her scores are kind of a pushback against big-tricks-skating, but it's still annoying.

Chen certainly has medal potential. He's delivered under pressure for one thing and has the technical goods. There's a lot of competition for the OGM, but I'd say Chen a strong contender for *one* of the medals.

Yes, there's a lot of competition for the bronze dance medal, but of the top six teams last year, three were American.

Yeah, Polina Edmunds has a long road ahead of her--but she's also 19--so, what's she supposed to do, retire without trying?

The US will be sending three ladies--if it's Chen, Nagasu and Wagner--I'd say odds are that one of them will pull of a skate that will get them into the FS, though I think the no Americans in the Ladies FS is probably the most likely prediction to come true. You have the Russians, Japanese and the Canadians all putting forth very strong skaters.
 

NanaPat

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The US will be sending three ladies--if it's Chen, Nagasu and Wagner--I'd say odds are that one of them will pull of a skate that will get them into the FS, though I think the no Americans in the Ladies FS is probably the most likely prediction to come true. You have the Russians, Japanese and the Canadians all putting forth very strong skaters.

I think Hersch said no ladies in the FS final flight (top 6 after free skate). I think it's highly unlikely verging on the impossible that there would be no US ladies in the free skate!
 
Joined
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... Either way, I do think he's a lock for the Olympics place. The others can either try and politic on their own though I think it's pointless,USFSA wants Vincent, or simply fight it out for the 3rd spot which is how all of this will end.

I agree that the USFSA wants Vincent. I think if they had their druthers they would go with Chen, Zhou and Brown. The skaters still have to earn it, though.

IMHO the United Sates has gone through a long period where we championed smooth operators like Jeremy Abbott and Adam Rippon, while trying to push the narrative that "artists" can compete even without quads. I think this time around they have been jerked into the real world and realize that without an arsenal of quads you are not going to win a championship, while if you do enough quads you might medal even if you don't have much else.
 

Tolstoj

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Nov 21, 2015

My considerations were between Carolina and the rest of the field on TES: yes she was overscored, and it was the same in the past for other skaters too.

Comparing TES with PCS makes no sense, it's apples vs oranges.

Having said that some user should know me at this point: my ideal type of skater has to be the complete package, so i would never put in front a Carolina/Patrick/Jason/Kaetlyn with their low technical contents just because they have good artistry, you have to have both period. It was just to clarify that Carolina isn't the only one saved by her reputation.

Patrick's "not a real coach" got trashed regularly but Mishin is still God, the ultimate jump coach. Some coaches get only the glory and some only the blame.

Except Mishin or Caro never asked for that inflation, the fact that Carolina is doing 3F-2T instead of the 3T-3T means that she will include the 3F-3T at some point. If judges want to leave her out of podium, it's up to them.

He also clearly said to Ted Barton from the ISU interview that his goal is to raise Carolina from novice level to the top. (so he implied that right now her level is novice-like basically)
 

4everchan

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Yes it is, just like your bias towards Patrick and comparing a man skater to a woman skater. Also unfair and cool...

FYI i was responding to a post from another user who brought in Patrick in the conversation as I thought it was inappropriate. If you are upset about the comparison, I am not willing to take responsibility for it. I will leave it at that.
 

4everchan

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I guess it depends on which titles we consider "big." She won Grand Prix finals in St. Petersburg and in Turin, Italy (also in Tokyo). She won Grand Prix events in Russia and in France (twice).



Kostner's record is pretty impressive, too, though. 6 World medals including one gold, 5 European titles, 1 Olympic medal (bronze) and 8 national titles.

What I think makes Patrick unique is that he was the first to realize the importance of edging skills, footwork and transitions in the IJS, and that he was the first to add quads to all this amazing stuff. He was so much ahead of his time that even if he fell the scores worked out in his favo
r.

I tend to see figure skating history in the other way... I think Patrick is one of the last skaters with the proper training to use his blades the way he does... Mr. Colson is responsible for that... Patrick wasn't a quadster in his teen years... the triple axel came late... even the triple lutz when we compare to other juniors... he didn't win world juniors... but he was skating.... and i wish i could find the video where kurt and brian talk about the colson legacy... brian says to patrick : you need to say thank you to mr colson for learning how to skate and not just how to jump... and patrick, as a cute little boy replies " thank you mr colson"...

anyways... i thought i would mention this as yes, Patrick was the first to add the quads to great skating... i think now the trend is reverse... skaters who have good jumping skills add on with some transition and blade work but it's not of the same level IMHO...
 
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