Ladies Tech calls in Russia versus Canada

patines · Oct 30, 2017

I wonder about having different judges and technical callers at the different GP events? Does it make sense to have the same judges and callers at all of the GP events?

Here are some of my concerns highlighted by the ladies competitions so far.

Russia ladies SP
6 Ur's 1 DG

Canada ladies SP
7 Ur's 3 DGs

Russia ladies FS
7 Ur's 0 DGs

Canada ladies FS
29 Ur's 5 DGs

Really?

I know, different crop of skaters, different judges, different technical callers, BUT? really?

And just because I like numbers...

Combined TES scores for SP in ladies event in Russia
400.69
Combined TES scores for SP in ladies event in Canada
361.71

Combined PCS scores for SP in ladies event in Russia
372.1

Combined PCS scores for SP in ladies event in Canada
356.44

Combined TES scores for FS in ladies event in Russia
745.64

Combined TES scores for FS in ladies event in Canada
603.21

Combined PCS scores for FS in ladies event in Russia
755.88

Combined PCS scores for FS in ladies event in Canada
709.64

Are we not comparing apples and oranges by having different judges and technical callers at each event?

4everchan · Oct 30, 2017

apples and oranges because really, the skaters are the ones getting the calls and there were some regular UR skaters in Canada... and well, of course, the tech panel was different.

moriel · Oct 30, 2017

I would say that in Russia, the tech pannel was plain lenient.

In Canada, it was WEIRD. While they made a lot of calls, they did not call all skaters equally, and did not give all skaters equal benefit of doubt.

Miller · Oct 30, 2017

Having 1 out of the 3 at each event would hopefully provide some consistency, but still allow up to 13 people to have their chance calling the jumps, spins etc. at a major international competition - (6 * 2) + 1.

MaiKatze · Oct 30, 2017

Was it just me or did the judges take their sweet time in Skate Canada, too? Normally you see the skater bow to the audience, enter the kiss and cry and then the reruns show on screen, they end, people clap, score is announced. At Skate Canada it felt like they showed the skaters in the KnC a minute before the rerun's and then another wait until the scores appeared. It sure made for some entertaining conversations to listen to, but it also felt horrible to see how the tech scores dropped for almost every skater.

Lota · Oct 30, 2017

Yup, the judging is so off :palmf:

Obviously there's going to be inconsistencies between competitions with a different panel of judges each time, but with these two particular examples, it's not even comparing apples to oranges, it's more like comparing apples to, I dunno, horses. These are extremes and this should not be happening (tbh I've seen leniency worse that in COR, but Canada was just :dbana:

with the tech calls). With the scores being as close as they sometimes are (e.g. the SP in Skate Canada), these scores deciding the placements, the placements deciding who goes to the GPF and this being a big factor in some countries for who goes to the Olympics, you'd think there'd be more care involved in the judging, more compassion (not leniency, just an understanding of how important it is to the skaters to be judged fairly and equally). :scowl: :scowl: :scowl:

skatenewbie · Oct 30, 2017

MaiKatze said:
Was it just me or did the judges take their sweet time in Skate Canada, too? Normally you see the skater bow to the audience, enter the kiss and cry and then the reruns show on screen, they end, people clap, score is announced. At Skate Canada it felt like they showed the skaters in the KnC a minute before the rerun's and then another wait until the scores appeared. It sure made for some entertaining conversations to listen to, but it also felt horrible to see how the tech scores dropped for almost every skater.

True, i think the Tech Panel was a bit too harsh. after review some skaters jumps some are actually not UR but get called, notably is Sotskova, Honda and Hongo jumps. in Sotskova case there is actual UR on her 2A that didnt get called instead other jump that are not UR is called. And the PCS was quite harsh too....if i calculated the actual score without fake UR Hongo should score around 120-ish, while Honda and Sotskova almost ~130. (actual score Hongo 114, Honda 125 and Sotskova 126)

moriel · Oct 30, 2017

skatenewbie said:
True, i think the Tech Panel was a bit too harsh. after review some skaters jumps some are actually not UR but get called, notably is Sotskova, Honda and Hongo jumps. in Sotskova case there is actual UR on her 2A that didnt get called instead other jump that are not UR is called. And the PCS was quite harsh too....if i calculated the actual score without fake UR Hongo should score around 120-ish, while Honda and Sotskova almost ~130. (actual score Hongo 114, Honda 125 and Sotskova 126)

I agree that it looked like some borderline jumps were called, and some jumps that could be called were not.

Spirals for Miles · Oct 30, 2017

skatenewbie said:
True, i think the Tech Panel was a bit too harsh. after review some skaters jumps some are actually not UR but get called, notably is Sotskova, Honda and Hongo jumps. in Sotskova case there is actual UR on her 2A that didnt get called instead other jump that are not UR is called. And the PCS was quite harsh too....if i calculated the actual score without fake UR Hongo should score around 120-ish, while Honda and Sotskova almost ~130. (actual score Hongo 114, Honda 125 and Sotskova 126)

Agreed. Only one skater was treated leniently by the technical panel, and we all know who that is...

euroskate · Oct 30, 2017

patines said:
I wonder about having different judges and technical callers at the different GP events? Does it make sense to have the same judges and callers at all of the GP events?

Are we not comparing apples and oranges by having different judges and technical callers at each event?

this is NOT possible. Officials at Events are volunteers and do have a regular JOB and mostly also Family. so to be at another continent every Weekend is not possible. Also how do you Chose just the three? Dont they have to much power??

it was and always will be that you cannot compare one competition to another!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 30, 2017

Different skaters and different panel.

Some skaters were somewhat low balled on PCS in the FS like Sotskova and Honda (although the judges were probably not buying Honda's hype the way others are).

The tech panel was particularly strict and taking their time but I think the fact that they were taking the time to scrutinize was laudable, and criticizing it is kinda laughable since accuracy and scrutiny is what we want (although I suppose it's unwanted when it doesn't benefit certain people's faves).

Before grilling the Tech Panel for being so harsh on Honda and some of the Americans, it should also be noted that the Tech panel were Japanese (head tech specialist), French (tech controller), and American (assistant tech specialist). Each were former competitive skaters (in pairs or men) who had all been to Worlds at some point.

Perhaps Okabe is the new female Shin Amano and is deliberately more strict? :biggrin:

So Honda gets hit with tech errors from a Japanese tech specialist (and the Americans get dinged with an American assistant tech specialist). Also notable for Honda that the Japanese judge did not give her the highest PCS of the panel. Maaaaybe (perish the thought!) Honda simply wasn't as good as some people thought?

andromache · Oct 30, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
Agreed. Only one skater was treated leniently by the technical panel, and we all know who that is...

Who was it?

I was super busy over the weekend and didn't spend too much time analyzing the scoring or performances or following the discussion, but I'm interested in the topic and whatever was wonky.

Grin · Oct 30, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Different skaters and different panel.

Some skaters were somewhat low balled on PCS in the FS like Sotskova and Honda (although the judges were probably not buying Honda's hype the way others are).

The tech panel was particularly strict and taking their time but I think the fact that they were taking the time to scrutinize was laudable, and criticizing it is kinda laughable since accuracy and scrutiny is what we want (although I suppose it's unwanted when it doesn't benefit certain people's faves).

Before grilling the Tech Panel for being so harsh on Honda and some of the Americans, it should also be noted that the Tech panel were Japanese (head tech specialist), French (tech controller), and American (assistant tech specialist). Each were former competitive skaters (in pairs or men) who had all been to Worlds at some point.

Perhaps Okabe is the new female Shin Amano and is deliberately more strict?

So Honda gets hit with tech errors from a Japanese tech specialist (and the Americans get dinged with an American assistant tech specialist). Also notable for Honda that the Japanese judge did not give her the highest PCS of the panel. Maaaaybe (perish the thought!) Honda simply wasn't as good as some people thought?

I bet if she was female Shin Amano one lady would get 3 "e" on her lutzes (1 in SP, 2 in FS)

Lota · Oct 30, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The tech panel was particularly strict and taking their time but I think the fact that they were taking the time to scrutinize was laudable, and criticizing it is kinda laughable since accuracy and scrutiny is what we want (although I suppose it's unwanted when it doesn't benefit certain people's faves).

Let's set the politics and who represented which country aside for a sec. While it may be laudable that the judges took their time evaluating everyone, the issue here is exactly the fact that is wasn't accurate judging. I'm all for a tougher judging panel as opposed to a lenient one, but there's tough judging and then there's wrong tech calls.

If we're talking about URs, obviously a skater should strive to skate cleanly enough so that there isn't any doubt that their jump was clean. But there IS a 1/4 rule, so even if a jump is not completely rotated, if the UR is under 1/4 it should not count as an UR and the skaters should be given full credit for that jump (An under-rotated jump (indicated by < ) is "missing rotation of more than ¼, but less than ½ revolution"). This is a RULE, it exists for a reason and the judges have to abide it. The skaters should be given the benefit of the doubt, not blindly getting URs left and right. And since the judges did take such a long time evaluating everyone, why didn't they take a look at all the jumps?

And if that wasn't bad enough, not everyone ended up having their URs called, which is even more ridiculous. If you're going to slaughter everyone, slaughter everyone (ok, slaughter may be a strong word, but you get what I mean). Others have deeply analysed the issue of which jumps were judged incorrectly elsewhere, so I won't go into this, but as a fan of figure skating it is frustrating. It's ok to be harsh, as I've said, I actually prefer that sort of judging. But please judge everyone accurately, fairly and equally.

Spirals for Miles · Oct 30, 2017

andromache said:
Who was it?

I was super busy over the weekend and didn't spend too much time analyzing the scoring or performances or following the discussion, but I'm interested in the topic and whatever was wonky.

Osmond

lovaticcanada · Oct 30, 2017

A harsh tech panel benefits Canada. The top Canadian skaters (Osmond/Chan) they don't tend to UR jumps, but they tend to rotate and fall or just start popping jumps. That is why they do not get called at all, since they are normally clean skaters, (and yes, also some home field advantage).

I think once Honda went first (she deserved higher, but she was 10th after short), that set the standard for the rest of the free skate. After they lowballed her marks, everyone else after was given marks relative to her. She did get the second highest TES (1.22 behind Osmond, but 3.34 ahead of Sotskova).

As Tessa/Scott once said "they don't care about comparing marks from competition to competition, all they look at are the GOEs and Levels". Normally, the panels are in between but we just unlucky had the 2 extreme cases on either ends to start the grand prix event.

Globetrotter · Oct 30, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
Osmond

If it's PCS, I fully agree. She deserved the win but not that sort of high components. TES wise, she was at most a passive beneficiary. As Osmond does not have a problem with < jumps (she tends to pop or fall but does enough to get the rotation at full credit), the strict tech callers will penalize others and she inevitably benefits. I am not in principle against this - strict judging is good, rewarding those with good technique and complete rotation is fair. Unfortunately, a lot of the < were downright wrong. Think Maria S 3Lz-3T getting dinged on the lutz - her solo lutz looks more UR than the combo; Karen Chen's 3Fe (wrong edge but rotation was just borderline and where's the benefit of the doubt??); Rika's combo, borderline with no benefit of the doubt applied.

Grin · Oct 30, 2017

lovaticcanada said:
A harsh tech panel benefits Canada. The top Canadian skaters (Osmond/Chan) they don't tend to UR jumps, but they tend to rotate and fall or just start popping jumps. That is why they do not get called at all, since they are normally clean skaters, (and yes, also some home field advantage).

I think once Honda went first (she deserved higher, but she was 10th after short), that set the standard for the rest of the free skate. After they lowballed her marks, everyone else after was given marks relative to her. She did get the second highest TES (1.22 behind Osmond, but 3.34 ahead of Sotskova).

As Tessa/Scott once said "they don't care about comparing marks from competition to competition, all they look at are the GOEs and Levels". Normally, the panels are in between but we just unlucky had the 2 extreme cases on either ends to start the grand prix event.

Harsh tec pannel will be a disaster for top Canadian ladies. Both Osmond and Daleman have edge problems

andromache · Oct 30, 2017

Grin said:
Harsh tec pannel will be a disaster for top Canadian ladies. Both Osmond and Daleman have edge problems

Almost every top lady has an edge problem of some kind or another. The edge penalty isn't as huge as the penalty for URs, and it usually only impact 1-2 jumps (whereas chronic underrotators can be penalized on several jumps).

So I wouldn't call it a disaster.

Mathman · Oct 30, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
. Maaaaybe (perish the thought!) Honda simply wasn't as good as some people thought?

Oh, she was, she was! :clap:

Ladies Tech calls in Russia versus Canada

patines

4everchan

moriel

Miller

MaiKatze

Lota

skatenewbie

moriel

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

euroskate

CanadianSkaterGuy

andromache

Grin

Lota

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

lovaticcanada

Globetrotter

Grin

andromache

Mathman

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