Her lutz is really perfect.
Best Lutz Jumps of 2017
- Thread starter Sam-Skwantch
- Start date
Her lutz is really perfect.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I'm not saying that she can't and won't land it cleanly anymore this season. I think she will make changes as necessary. But here is her international track record with lutz jumping passes in 2017:
Skate Canada 2017:
SP: 3Z (stepoout/handdown)
FS: 3Z+2T, 3Z<
Japan Open 2017:
FS: 3Z+3T<, 3Z<(fall)
US Figure Skating Classic 2017:
SP: 3Z+3T<
FS: 3Z+3T<, 3Z< (stepout)
World Team Trophy 2017:
SP: 3Z+2T
FS: 1Z, 3Z<<(fall)
Worlds 2017:
SP: 3Z+3T
FS: 3Z+3T, 3Z<(fall)
Four Continents 2017:
SP: 3Z+2T (foot down)
FS: 3Z (stepout), 3Z<(stepout to 2T*)
Only 2 out of 17 of these lutz jumping passes would be considered successful/as planned. Even counting her 3Z combos where the error was primarily on the second jump, her track record is 8/17.
So to even suggest that she is one of the best lutz jumpers these days (or even this year) is completely unsubstantiated.
And based on this, it would make so much more sense for Chen to put her second lutz way earlier in the program when she has fresher legs, or minimize the transitions going into it so she can get more speed and run less of a risk of under-rotating it. She's erred on her solo lutz in the second half in her past 6 competitions. :disapp:
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
You've completely missed the point, yet again. This thread is talking about the best Lutzes executed. As I also already talked about, the consistency of a jump combo is much different than the consistency of a solo jump. You very wrongly keep trying to point at inconsistencies of a jump combo when the Lutzes in those combos have been clean and amazing.
The consistency of a jump has little to do with the actual quality a skater is able to execute. You are creating false equivalences and that website you linked is highly flawed. Typical modern day assessment of figure skating, only looking at superficialities and things on paper (which includes wrong tech panel calls that you just ignore) as if they are an exact representation of the skating.
I will repeat it again - if everyone had to do very high quality Lutzes, which is what we are talking about here, then not many ladies would have a very consistent 3Lutz+3Toe combo. The scoring system does not currently reward actual high quality jumps well enough, much lower quality jumps still get similar GOE scores (or better scores!) and those lower quality jumps are more consistent.
The consistency of a jump has little to do with the actual quality a skater is able to execute. You are creating false equivalences and that website you linked is highly flawed. Typical modern day assessment of figure skating, only looking at superficialities and things on paper (which includes wrong tech panel calls that you just ignore) as if they are an exact representation of the skating.
I will repeat it again - if everyone had to do very high quality Lutzes, which is what we are talking about here, then not many ladies would have a very consistent 3Lutz+3Toe combo. The scoring system does not currently reward actual high quality jumps well enough, much lower quality jumps still get similar GOE scores (or better scores!) and those lower quality jumps are more consistent.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2013
As Lipnitskaya stated and as reported on GS, Kaetlyn's Lutz deserves an 11 for GOE, ...enough said.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
BoP, I was simply refuting your notion that Karen is one of the best lutz jumpers these days. Even if we included combos as a successful lutz jumping pass where the first jump was clean, she has still only landed 8/17 clean lutzes. And if we are talking solo lutzes, she has landed has landed exactly ZERO clean ones this year.
When she hits it well, yes, I agree that Karen has one of the best lutzes. So what - so does Gracie Gold. The takeoff and height are excellent, however the landing is still a constant issue. It lacks sufficient control/flow such that she is unable to execute a clean 3T combo, and even if you consider her solo jumps she has erred a ton - with stepouts/singling/downgrade/UR/fall on her solo lutzes. That does not make her a good lutzer - because obviously you have to land the jump cleanly, first and foremost.
All 3 lutz passes at Skate Canada, her most recent competition, were flawed in some way (3Z with stepout with hand down, an intended 3-3 turned into a 3-2 because the landing of the lutz lacked the flow for her to do the triple, and an underrotated 3Z). I'm sure she can bounce back and is capable of clean lutzes -- she just has not shown it. You can't even complain that the judges are unfairly grading her for the solo lutzes where she is falling/singling/stepping out -- how are these high quality lutzes or "PERFECT" technique -- she has yet to land a clean solo lutz since US Nationals, and 6 technical panels have marked her solo lutz as </<< which can hardly be considered a coincidence or bias.
And I disagree -- the ability to do a good combo is absolutely indicative of a strong jump earlier on in the combo. You can't execute a clean, solid 3X+3T or 3X+3L if the 3X isn't a strong jump to begin with sufficient run out and good control of the landing edge. Karen has not hit a clean 3Z+3T since Worlds -- which suggests that either her 3T technique has diminished, her lutz technique is compromising her ability to execute her combo cleanly, or she's getting hosed by the tech panel - in spite of being World #4 and US Champion.
Let me humour you for a moment, and hypothetically assume you're right - the tech panel got it wrong every time, and every 3T< call was in fact a clean 3T.... well, she would still only have executed 5 out of her past 11 intended 3Z+3T attempts. So, internationally in 2017, even with the very high quality lutz you say she has (which is what we are talking about here), she still doesn't have a very consistent (or even half-consistent) 3Z+3T combo. Doesn't matter what skateDB or anyone says, we all saw the stepouts/pop/falls. I'm not going to make excuses for Karen saying that the only reason other skaters have more consistent lutzes is because their lutz isn't as great on the takeoff/height. These other ladies are landing their lutzes more consistently than Karen because they also are able to control their landings.
Not to mention, the judges obviously can't reward Karen's lutz jump as having higher quality than these other skaters if she's messing up the landings.
I've decided that seconding this shoutout to Nathan's lovely lutz is a worthy cause for my first post. Not as high as Kolyada's, but sooo smooth. Had me like :reye: that was a quad?
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
Good, because that's what is being talked about in this thread. Glad to have cleared that up.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2006
Also, Nana Araki has a perfect lutz. https://youtu.be/2ynQAauXv6E?t=2m6s
Too bad she was underscored in this event, as expected. \endrant
Too bad she was underscored in this event, as expected. \endrant
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
:thumbsup:
IIRC there was some Russian blog where the jump heights were compared: Kolyada's 4lz came up as 78 cm - the highest and Jin's in second (can't remember the height). But I have a feeling Kolyada's lutz at SP CoC 'beat' his own record it was monstrous, but actually the one in LP might have been even bigger than in SP and that's in part why he could not control the landing.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2017
Here it is, though they used the one from Ondrej Nepela and the one he did at CoC looked even bigger. The one in LP was even higher somehow - makes you imagine, if he fixed the axis, rotated a a little faster, could he have a 5Lz???
I mean likely not but suddenly it seems physically possible, though such things were once just the stuff of daydreams.They also did one for ladies. Polina's lutz is highest, followed by Karen's, then Liza Tukt's.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Correct, but given that Karen has yet to hit a clean solo 3Z in 2017, I disagree that she is one of the best lutz jumpers these days as you had asserted. After all, you're only as good as what you bring to competition, and Karen has had several errors on her lutz jumping passes in her most recent competitions.
But sure, we can agree to disagree. I'm still a Karen fan, and think she's artistically one of the best skaters to come out of the US in years (certainly the best spinner), but she needs to up her consistency and improve her technique -- particularly on the landing of her lutz.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
This is an impressive lutz (particularly the preceding transitions and the height), but it doesn't have the deepest outside edge, she is a bit off axis in the air, and comes down a bit scratchy on the toe on the landing. It's an 8/10 for me. Don't get me wrong, I think she's a fantastic skater, but IMO there have been superior lutzes this year. The one BoP showed with Liza for example was much better, IMO. As well as Tsurskaya's lutzes.
lol this is such a pedantic argument.
- Joined
- May 17, 2017
She has much better Lutz in other videos. And her 3lz3T has no doubt of rotation, not borderline as Tsurskaya or non-existing like Tuktamysheva.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2006
Exactly what Ender said. And also what BoP said about if all these girls were Canadian. 
Exactly. I'm tired of arguing this since my mind will not be changed, and objectively facts remain the same.
Exactly. I'm tired of arguing this since my mind will not be changed, and objectively facts remain the same.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
God you just don't learn. Again, consistency has NOTHING to do with the quality someone does at their best. Kolyada's consistency on his 4Lutz is awful and yet when he did it successfully at Cup of China, everyone agreed it was one of the best ever.
Karen's consistency on her Lutz is higher than that so STOP. Let's see the consistency other ladies would have on 3Lutz if they were forced to execute it with the same quality she goes for and as the last triple of the program. Barely any ladies would ever be landing it! What Karen does is so difficult and risky and the current scoring system doesn't reward it enough, but I'm happy someone is trying to keep ideal technique and exciting placement of technical elements alive.
- Joined
- May 17, 2017
Well consistency should be taken into account. I mean... if you’re good at some jump, you should hit it more than average like 50% don’t you think? I don’t think 90% is a requirement. But when you land 1/10 time the lutz jump... I don’t say you’re a good lutzer. Maybe the time you landed it was out of luck...
I assume you mean 2017-2018 season, but if we said 2017 in general, without question the best lutz would be Boyang's opening 4Lz at 2017 Worlds FS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv7hG8mN2uU. Mikhail's in the Cup of China comes a close second--better flow on landing but not as much height/speed/coverage throughout the whole jump. Both amazing!
Honestly there haven't been any great lutzes among the ladies recently...It's ridiculous that apparently Kaetlyn has the best two lutzes this season....Tuk has a pretty good lutz but she will never get high GOEs anymore, others who get the right edge on the lutz (Wakaba, Karen, Anna P, Elena, long list) tend to do ! or Fe on the flip. How many ladies can we say have a consistent, clear edge lutz and flip at the moment?
Honestly there haven't been any great lutzes among the ladies recently...It's ridiculous that apparently Kaetlyn has the best two lutzes this season....Tuk has a pretty good lutz but she will never get high GOEs anymore, others who get the right edge on the lutz (Wakaba, Karen, Anna P, Elena, long list) tend to do ! or Fe on the flip. How many ladies can we say have a consistent, clear edge lutz and flip at the moment?
