Structure of Zagitova's Free Skate

CanadianSkaterGuy · Nov 15, 2017

Tolstoj said:
To me falling on a jump is a technical mistake, the components mark is everything not related to the jumps or the spins. So when you fall on a jump, you get the -1 deduction and -3 on the GOEs from all the judges.

That is also why on the flip side, an original spin position, maybe related to theme of the music shouldn't give any advantage on the components but instead on the GOEs, or even an arm variation on a jump that is nice detail that should boost the GOEs, not the PCS in any way. When you're doing a footwork sequences you're not just doing it but you're also supposed to sell the program, that is not just technical but also artistic so that should be reflected.

That is my interpretation, but there isn't anything about the jumps or the spins on the rules for the components, because that's what it is: jumps and spins are merely technical elements.

It's okay because it did happen already: Evgenia Medvedeva has received 10s with one fall on the 2a: she quickly recovered, it wasn't an hard fall by any means but it is still a fall.

So the message there is that we can expect 10s for programs with falls, and looking at the Olympics where usually scores are very inflated, i can see this situation happening again. Then we can all say that is ridiculous,... it is what it is.

So is footwork. Look at where it lies on the protocols. The technical elements section. Using your logic about jumps, you could say that footwork already awards higher GOE already to skaters who artistically match the musical structure, or show control of the whole body, or exhibit creativity/originality (note there is PCS under composition for Originality, too). So whatever happens in the footwork is already being awarded already and should have no bearing on PCS, right?! Of course, we all know that is not the case, nor should it be.

And an original spin position, if in time with a musical highlight should absolutely get higher interpretation marks. Look at Hanyu's arms during his sit spins in time with the music in Let's Go Crazy or Chopin. Look at Chan's death drop in Concierto de Aranjuez right on the music. As far as jumps go, the jumps in Zagitova's program are on point (even if there's a slew of them) which should lend to higher credit for reflecting the character of the music (even if "matches musical structure" is already awarded on GOE).

Bcash · Nov 16, 2017

I don't care if she backloads or not. It's just a very bland, very going-through-the-motions type of junior program. It happens to collect points well under the current judging system.

Tolstoj · Nov 16, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
That document is not all of "the rules". There have been many other clarifications and descriptions to this "base set" of rules in communications from the ISU over the years. Additionally there are many other facets and specifics of skating that are not listed in any public ISU document, but rather shared between judges, ISU officials, coaches, and skaters. The base rules are not intended to be a full description of everything the ISU shows judges and coaches, and the full understandings ISU members have, nor a full description of the reasoning behind why ISU members create certain rules.

Okay so here's the thing: the part you mentioned about composition was there in the past (old documents had it) and now there isn't anymore.

That pdf are the official rules by ISU, nowhere says that it is a recap, so please understand me if i don't believe you now.

Mathman · Nov 16, 2017

Tolstoj said:
Please link me the part on the rules where it says that balance means an equal distribution of elements, and the fact that is a rule, otherwise there is a lack of evidence here.

The part you mentioned about choreography / composition is NO LONGER there if you read the rules.

http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...igure-skating-rules/regulations-rules-fs/file

These are the rules about how competitions must be organized, how tech panels are appointed, etc. The "Components with Explanations" document is still available here:

http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

You are right to say that this is old and that the ISU has not made any substantive updates for a long time.

moriel · Nov 16, 2017

Mathman said:
These are the rules about how competitions must be organized, how tech panels are appointed, etc. The "Components with Explanations" document is still available here:

http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

You are right to say that this is old and that the ISU has not made any substantive updates for a long time.

But this does not seem to be an ISU document

, there is no mention to ISU even.
Also, there is a 2004 as a date, sounds a little bit outdated, and i suppose the 2016 doc should take precedence

4everchan · Nov 16, 2017

well.. to me... and that's just my opinion, the never ending step sequences that feature every possible step and turn removes any sort of joy felt and seen with basic skating.... i don't see Alina glide and flow on the ice.... then, all the jumps are bunched up together, with transitions in and out... same thing... running edge someone??? there is nothing like a nice double axel (or triple for men) with a long, held, smooth running edge...

if anything, i find that some of these programs are overdoing it to milk every possible point from IJS but then the essential is forgotten : gliding.... smooth gliding on the ice.

I'd prefer watching less transitions and a stepsequence level 3 if it gives me the impression that a skater is floating above the ice.... which is definitely not the case with Alina and some of the other girls right now.

Compare some of the step sequences with athletes who are well known NOT to backload.... way less intricacy but more finished movements...

Less is more... and artistically, more is often associated to bad taste, immaturity and lack of perspective... though I wouldn't go that far when describing the young skaters here... who are, anyways, not creating the program themselves..

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 16, 2017

I'll just say, I like everything about Alina. She reminds me of a polished, more refined Irina Slutskaya. I find watching her to be low stress because she never melts down or gives up on a performance after a mistake. She looks engaged with the audience. For someone her age, she isn't coltish at all; her arms and legs are always moving purposefully. She captures the mood of the music. I'm not crazy about the extreme backloading in her LP, but she has so many other great qualities that I can overlook that. I find most of the criticism of her overly nitpicky, since most other skaters have far more technical or performance deficiencies than Alina.

Mathman · Nov 16, 2017

moriel said:
But this does not seem to be an ISU document , there is no mention to ISU even.
Also, there is a 2004 as a date, sounds a little bit outdated, and i suppose the 2016 doc should take precedence

It is an ISU document that the USFSA also put up on its site. I am never able to find anything on the ISU site, unless I know the exact number of the Communication, etc. Is there a comparable 2016 document? I know that from time to time since 2004 the language was tweaked and additional wordage was added. I think that the type of thing that is listed in the older document is still current in terms of what the ISU expects judges to consider when marking the components.

To tell the truth, I think that the ISU did a pretty good job of finding words to convey the esthetic principles involved. If you just say, you should have good choreography if you want a 9 in that component, that is not useful to judges pr to fans.

gkelly · Nov 16, 2017

Mathman said:
It is an ISU document that the USFSA also put up on its site. I am never able to find anything on the ISU site, unless I know the exact number of the Communication, etc.

Agreed. With the recent redesign of the ISU site, it's even harder for me to find things there.

I usually to the Technical Information page for Singles and Pairs at the USFS site when I'm looking for documents:
http://usfigureskating.org/story?id=84109

Is there a comparable 2016 document?

The old PCS chart and the program component explanations that used to be there have been gone from that page since last year. The Program Components Overview chart currently available there (under Judges and Referees Information near the bottom of the page) is dated 8/31/16.

(There's also a similar USFS-specific chart for lower levels, from 9/13/17, because USFS has changed the factoring and the number of program components for lower levels to put more emphasis on skating skills. Not relevant to discussions of elite skating.)

I know that from time to time since 2004 the language was tweaked and additional wordage was added. I think that the type of thing that is listed in the older document is still current in terms of what the ISU expects judges to consider when marking the components.

To tell the truth, I think that the ISU did a pretty good job of finding words to convey the esthetic principles involved. If you just say, you should have good choreography if you want a 9 in that component, that is not useful to judges pr to fans.

I hope the ISU will revise the program component explanations document to match the new overview chart .

Eclair · Nov 16, 2017

drivingmissdaisy said:
I'll just say, I like everything about Alina. She reminds me of a polished, more refined Irina Slutskaya. I find watching her to be low stress because she never melts down or gives up on a performance after a mistake. She looks engaged with the audience. For someone her age, she isn't coltish at all; her arms and legs are always moving purposefully. She captures the mood of the music. I'm not crazy about the extreme backloading in her LP, but she has so many other great qualities that I can overlook that. I find most of the criticism of her overly nitpicky, since most other skaters have far more technical or performance deficiencies than Alina.

I agree that a lot of the skaters have far more technical or performance deficiencies than Alina, but I think Wakaba didn't at CoC, but the scores absolutely didn't reflect that.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 16, 2017

Eclair said:
I agree that a lot of the skaters have far more technical or performance deficiencies than Alina, but I think Wakaba didn't at CoC, but the scores absolutely didn't reflect that.

I like Wakaba a lot, too. It's hard to compare the balletic style of Alina with the more commanding presence of Wakaba. For me, I can't say I like one better than the other.

daphenaxa · Nov 16, 2017

I think she deserves 10 in every single PCS and +3 on every single element she does (+the 10% of course since all her jumps are cleverly in the second half). Her programs are also the best artistically and in composition for sure. i thought she was the second coming of Lu Chen 1st time i saw Don Quichotte

Miss Ice · Nov 16, 2017

daphenaxa said:
I think she deserves 10 in every single PCS and +3 on every single element she does (+the 10% of course since all her jumps are cleverly in the second half). Her programs are also the best artistically and in composition for sure. i thought she was the second coming of Lu Chen 1st time i saw Don Quichotte

Are you... for real? That's a bit of an insult to Lu Chen.... EDIT: OH, I just realized that was sarcasm. Thank Goodness.

Regarding her "balletic" style, please tell me how her hunched back is reminiscent of proper ballet posture. Her torso is horizontal to the ice nearly every 10 seconds during her step sequences and in cross-overs. There is nothing balletic or aesthetic about this. And if you're talking about difficulty, it is a lot more difficult to skate with good posture and actually hold jump edges than having poor torso control and short jump exits (which are necessary to cram all 7 passes into 1 minute).

Structure of Zagitova's Free Skate

CanadianSkaterGuy

Bcash

Tolstoj

Mathman

moriel

4everchan

drivingmissdaisy

Mathman

gkelly

Eclair

drivingmissdaisy

daphenaxa

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~

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