It would be less entertaining (or maybe more, depending on your view of Russian medal contenders' programs). But if the allegations are true then it would be fairer.
WADA rejects appeals from Russia
- Thread starter gmyers
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It would be less entertaining (or maybe more, depending on your view of Russian medal contenders' programs). But if the allegations are true then it would be fairer.
But Russia is a signatory to the Copenhagen declaration which politically binds it to be compliant to WADA code. WADA is not some alien institution.
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Obviously the Fed should be punished if indeed there was doping and then covering up of it.
But why punish the individual athletes? None of these figure skating athletes at least are participating from Sochi as far as I know, and they've been working hard for years for the Olympics. Not to be banned two months before for things that they didn't even do. I get that someone has to be punished but it reminds me of elementary school teachers who make the entire class miss recess for one student's misbehavior (obviously I am still very bitter about that).
But why punish the individual athletes? None of these figure skating athletes at least are participating from Sochi as far as I know, and they've been working hard for years for the Olympics. Not to be banned two months before for things that they didn't even do. I get that someone has to be punished but it reminds me of elementary school teachers who make the entire class miss recess for one student's misbehavior (obviously I am still very bitter about that).
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No, it's not fair if figure skaters are banned who had nothing to do with the doping program. Fair to whom?
AFAIK, Russia is currently running an internal investigation, and cannot hand over the samples until this investigation is finished.
I've read in some article today that they actually invited WADA to collab with this investigation.
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Especially that in 2014 Medvedeva was only 14 and Zagitova was propably playing with her babydolls...
I dont think they would take such arguments into account
Because well, i can totally see people saying russian athletes suck their doping with breastmilk or something, so they are all guilty.
Jokes aside, i believe it is unfair to punish people who did nothing wrong because someone else did.
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No smoke without fire..
Do I think it's unfair for clean Russian athletes? YES
However, I also think we have been hearing about these issues for long enough... there was a partial ban in Rio, then Russia wasn't part of the paralympics.... and 2 years later, more and more people are convinced there was national cheating programs in Russia.... though the "evidence is not yet out"...
I don't read this as there is no proof... I am reading this as a court case... people who are working to show Russia's guilt here are not revealing what they have yet... they are building their case. It's not complete yet... it can take years before it gets done. In the meantime, it's sad for everyone... not just Russian athletes. Olympians don't want to win a medal in a lesser field. They want to beat the best. However, too many times have I seen athletes getting a gold medal after 8-10 years because everyone ahead of them was in the end disqualified.... Olympians want to beat the best, as long as it's fair game.
There will always be cheaters, and not just in Russia, but everywhere. However, this systemic doping plan surpassed anything anyone could have ever imagined....
Despite being disappointed by how things are dealt with, turning a blind eye or not giving any consequences to a cheating federation would be a huge mistake. People forget the implication of doping, especially in an organized system like this... It touches elite teenage athletes as well... who take things because they are forced to do it.... just imagine enrolling your children in sport to keep them active, fit and healthy and finding out a few years later that they have been given a bunch of "weird drugs" with "some potential long term side effects".... If I were Russian I would be furious that my federation has abused its people... to do what? Win silly medals????? Discs that people put around their necks ???? Like beasts at the fair?
Seriously, stop thinking in the immediate... think about the larger picture. It's a deep issue.
Do I think it's unfair for clean Russian athletes? YES
However, I also think we have been hearing about these issues for long enough... there was a partial ban in Rio, then Russia wasn't part of the paralympics.... and 2 years later, more and more people are convinced there was national cheating programs in Russia.... though the "evidence is not yet out"...
I don't read this as there is no proof... I am reading this as a court case... people who are working to show Russia's guilt here are not revealing what they have yet... they are building their case. It's not complete yet... it can take years before it gets done. In the meantime, it's sad for everyone... not just Russian athletes. Olympians don't want to win a medal in a lesser field. They want to beat the best. However, too many times have I seen athletes getting a gold medal after 8-10 years because everyone ahead of them was in the end disqualified.... Olympians want to beat the best, as long as it's fair game.
There will always be cheaters, and not just in Russia, but everywhere. However, this systemic doping plan surpassed anything anyone could have ever imagined....
Despite being disappointed by how things are dealt with, turning a blind eye or not giving any consequences to a cheating federation would be a huge mistake. People forget the implication of doping, especially in an organized system like this... It touches elite teenage athletes as well... who take things because they are forced to do it.... just imagine enrolling your children in sport to keep them active, fit and healthy and finding out a few years later that they have been given a bunch of "weird drugs" with "some potential long term side effects".... If I were Russian I would be furious that my federation has abused its people... to do what? Win silly medals????? Discs that people put around their necks ???? Like beasts at the fair?
Seriously, stop thinking in the immediate... think about the larger picture. It's a deep issue.
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Nobody takes WADA seriously except themselves and it's why you see them barking so loudly. They can't fail yet again!! Their relevance is in question and the more we see stories like what just happened with UKAD and cycling the more we are starting to see informed people who wonder about these organizations ability to achieve their goals. Shall we mention the famous football doctor of the premier league?
The IOC will likely do what they did in RIO because it is the most prudent way to punish the athletes caught cheating while Upholding the inclusive spirit of the games. They are the best equipped to handle the individual cases for very obvious reasons. Based on evidence alone it is looking like 15-30 athletes and potentially those sports that will face the most scrutiny. It's been four years and the evidence at this point seems to suggest a smaller doping scheme and a real possibility that the man who orchestrated it destroyed thousands of samples to conceal a few. They've had access to his emails for sometime and only have implicated like 15 to 20 people. A blanket ban needs far more evidence than this and it must be conclusive too!!
I think allowing the individual federations to use their own data and test samples supplied by WADA to make decisions will be the most accurate and responsible way to handle this. Unless WADA is able to produce evidence of of the contrary for all to see then why should it be any other way? Anything but the rhetoric of Tygert and the likes who remind me more of those fiery ministers preaching fire and damnation than professional mediators with a tremendous responsibility to the world of sport.
The IOC will likely do what they did in RIO because it is the most prudent way to punish the athletes caught cheating while Upholding the inclusive spirit of the games. They are the best equipped to handle the individual cases for very obvious reasons. Based on evidence alone it is looking like 15-30 athletes and potentially those sports that will face the most scrutiny. It's been four years and the evidence at this point seems to suggest a smaller doping scheme and a real possibility that the man who orchestrated it destroyed thousands of samples to conceal a few. They've had access to his emails for sometime and only have implicated like 15 to 20 people. A blanket ban needs far more evidence than this and it must be conclusive too!!
I think allowing the individual federations to use their own data and test samples supplied by WADA to make decisions will be the most accurate and responsible way to handle this. Unless WADA is able to produce evidence of of the contrary for all to see then why should it be any other way? Anything but the rhetoric of Tygert and the likes who remind me more of those fiery ministers preaching fire and damnation than professional mediators with a tremendous responsibility to the world of sport.
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Unfortunately, the WADA code doesn't oblige McLaren's commission to be neutral and honest.
WADA needs to be reformed so as to prevent its exploitation for political purposes.
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(I'm not commenting on everything you said because I agree with a lot of it, but I wanted to point out this one thing)
And what about the athletes that were taking "weird drugs" (hello meldonium) they needed in order to compete, or at the time they believed they did, and without the least amount of research these athletes were banned from competition, and months later they got they got cleared without a problem? What they can do about the competition they didn't get the chance to partake in? They'll have the chance to fight for those medals again? All the years of hard work can be just flushed down the drain because some man was on a power trip at the time.
Also, reducing medals to just discs that people put around their necks is just silly, because while they are in fact that, they represent a lot more. And it's a big part of what sport is about.
It is of utmost importance to investigate and punish those that are guilty, but what about those that are not to blame? Will they be forgotten behind the bigger picture?
There you go, build the case first then ask them to get punished or be banned after. They can always ban the Russians in 2020 or 2024.
I myself wants the Russians to be punished but it should be done after proper investigations with irrefutable evidences.
Its creating a problem that they want the Russians to be banned now even though they are not finished with their case yet and doesnt even want to reveal their strongest evidence yet. i think that's reasonable and fair, don't you think? For the mean time the different sports body should be dealing with their athletes, which i believe is being done now.
I thought the sticking point is Russia won’t admit to state sponsored cheating but they do admit to cheating by their testing lab director, who was the original whistleblower.
WADA now has the leaked electronic testing files, which Russia refused to turn over, further confirms their belief of state sponsored doping. Yet Putin now blames the mess a US retaliation and meddling with Russian presidential election. Illogical much.
What’s really troubling to Russian athletes’ participation is they have not been tested or sufficiently tested this year during their preparations for the Olympics, and their top athletes are said to have zero or one test only this year. And now due to the failure of RUSADA to get reinstated, those who got tested will not deem to be reliable and counted. Without continued, early, multiple and random testing history, athletes would be suspected of doping months earlier but stop now. It’s unfair to other clean competitors. I fear chances are not good for Russian athletes get to compete in the Olympics.
WADA now has the leaked electronic testing files, which Russia refused to turn over, further confirms their belief of state sponsored doping. Yet Putin now blames the mess a US retaliation and meddling with Russian presidential election. Illogical much.
What’s really troubling to Russian athletes’ participation is they have not been tested or sufficiently tested this year during their preparations for the Olympics, and their top athletes are said to have zero or one test only this year. And now due to the failure of RUSADA to get reinstated, those who got tested will not deem to be reliable and counted. Without continued, early, multiple and random testing history, athletes would be suspected of doping months earlier but stop now. It’s unfair to other clean competitors. I fear chances are not good for Russian athletes get to compete in the Olympics.
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Weird....you'd think they'd have been getting tested at all of the GP events in recent weeks. Zhenya just gave an interview in which she said she was just woken up at 5am by doping control at her house. I think there is a lot of misinformation out there right now.
So all those athletes who dope legally with certificates played fair game? WADA is a joke. If it were not the hackers, I would have never imagined such ridiculous things could happen.
Besides, is it okay now to sentence a person to jail before any solid proof is found and shown, because 'no fire without smoke'?
if I remember it correctly a british or Paris lab is doing the testing for the Russians since they got suspended. i may be wrong though
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i can turn this around easily.... what about Becky Scott who competed clean and got a bronze during the games... but then... years later finally received her gold because two Russian athletes ahead of her had been doping?
What about Christine Girard, weightlifter who finished 4th in London, and will end up with gold as all the girls ahead of her were sanctioned... and not only the girls ahead of her but the girls below her. These athletes deserved to hear their national anthem and get the glory and exposure associated to their success... they were denied from that too...
Yes.... when we start looking at individual stories, we can see that sometimes, there were strict bans that were too aggressive for the knowledge. People make mistakes, even when they have good intentions... and I think that's the main difference here : there is a huge difference in making a mistake compared to having the intention of cheating....
I see no ill-intention here when the IOC issues bans.... actually, for the IOC, it's the worst thing that can happen to them as it discredits them, it discredits their power to control doping... it belittles the achievement of the athletes (i was using a figure of speech about the fair... i was a swimmer and I get what it means to stand on top of the podium... but in the end, what I remember the most is the joy of swimming and competing.. not the medals and awards who remained in my mom's basement until i threw them away last spring)...
The IOC knows that it could lose sponsors if the games are not cleaned up... each time there is a doping case, they lose money. Whenever figure skating had a judging scandal, it lost fans.... the sport is nearly dead in the USA ... combination of factors sure enough, but SLC didn't help...
It's time that people stop playing the pointing finger games... "Russia is bad" "WADA is bad" "IOC sucks" etc... and collectively CLEAN up the sport...and if it takes a major ban to achieve this, let's do it.
Yes... I am naive... i prefer being naive ...when I watch a competition, I want to remain able to assume that nobody is cheating.... that all athletes have a fair shot.
Reading GS : whenever the tech panel and judges get out, there are so many conspiracy theories and predictions made even before the skaters have skated, and based only on the panels... that it kills the sport...
I find all of this very unfortunate...
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I don't disagree with you however, what you and I don't know is how much tampering and destroying of evidence has happened and is still happening...
In such cases, we have to understand that we, the public, don't know everything that's happened... WADA could be in the situation where they have a lot of evidence adding up but always find that one missing part has been tampered... when you put all these together, your case is not only circumstantial ... but becomes legit.
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At her house? By russians or somebody else?
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