Acquisition of Skills - averages

VegMom said:

How accurate do you think it is???

edit to add: FOR THOSE WHO THINK THIS CHART IS INACCURATE CAN YOU PLEASE SUGGEST A BETTER RESOURCE ?
ALSO, can you be specific? For instance, "no its not accurate" is not helpful. Instead, perhaps "My experience coaching 200 skaters suggests that the average total hours to master the double axel is closer to 3000 not 2500" or "This chart looks fairly accurate but only for elite skaters."

Click to expand...

Sorry to be so snarky but I'm not sure why you posted these questions. Several posters (including me) were kind enough to explain why they disagreed with the chart but you seemed to discount their comments.

Ic3Rabbit said:

Then why ask? I'm seriously confused by what you want here. You asked for our opinions and expertise. I (we) gave it to you and still you want to follow your chart that is not accurate.

Click to expand...

My sentiments exactly!

concorde said:

So for an 8 year old to get all single jumps in 1 year is not far fetched but it would be for a 3 year old.

Click to expand...

This suggests that you do perceive some sort of average development. So, maybe expand on that idea. What would averages look like from your perspective?

concorde said:

I know a 13 year old male skater who started skating at age 2. He currently has all his triples except for the triple axle which he just started working on. According to this chart, he is behind the average since the triple axle is not yet in his arsenal.

Click to expand...

All the comments that say "according to the chart, so-and-so should have xyz jump by now" demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the chart. They're not understanding averages. Nor are they looking at the rate. Some aren't even looking at the hours and are only looking at years. So those are not criticisms of the chart, except to say in not so many words that "average people will misinterpret the chart and thus the utility of the chart is limited based on that."

concorde said:

Sorry to be so snarky but I'm not sure why you posted these questions. Several posters (including me) were kind enough to explain why they disagreed with the chart but you seemed to discount their comments.

Click to expand...

Overall, the sentiment seems to be 'ignore the chart and let your kid skate no matter what.' And well, I don't find that at all helpful. If my skater were progressing significantly more slowly than average (or even just at average) then I would probably pull back the reins quite a bit and encourage my kiddo to pursue other, less dangerous sports that are more accessible and require less investment from the parents and athlete. Instead of skating 4-5 days a week we would skate 1-2. Instead of hiring one of the most expensive, highest rated coaches we would go with one of the teenagers. Instead of registering with USFSA and competing with the club we would just stick to ISI.

Figure skating is one of the last sports I want my kid involved in - it's inconvenient, it's expensive, it's dangerous (both short term from concussions and long term from joint damage), scoring is subjective and involves all this pageantry and drama. I literally never imagined my kid would be interested. But since this is his current passion, then if there's a good chance for him to go far with this then I will support it. I did NOT give as much support to his other sport passions (motocross, for instance) because it was obvious that the chance for long-term success was not worth the risks.

I've already explained... but the reason I'm looking for the type of information given by this chart is to get a better sense of how much (time, money, travel, etc) to invest in this.

ETA: I am not my child's sole support. My child has many others in his life who know about figure skating and can comment insightfully about jumps and other elements. his dad, for instance, knows the jumps. I DO know the names for many of the other elements, the things I think are more interesting like spread eagles and spirals and shoot the duck etc. I just can't for the life of me tell the difference between jumps. I've tried to learn and it's just not happening. I know plenty of other helpful things like how to do all the clothing stuff - which are his favorite type of pants and socks and how to lace his boots etc. I drive the kid almost daily (the rink is NOT close to our house, there's nearly always traffic and it's a total PITA) and pay for his lessons and ice time. And clearly I try to learn, otherwise I would not have joined a figure skating forum!

Take a survey and ask the moms in the warm room how much they know - most are going to say they know very little about jumps. We learn what we have to in order to support our kids - how to read the ice schedules, how to use EntryEeze, what snacks to pack to avoid a meltdown, where the bunga pads go or which arch supports to use, which gloves are their favorites and what kinds of costumes are acceptable to them (mine only likes long sleeves - will not do short sleeves), how to burn a CD with kiddo's music, whether or not to give a 'tossie' (no, he doesn't want stuffed animals or flowers, he wants to go to the toy store and pick something special himself - or rather, what he really wants is first place), what kind of breakfast is best before a competition, etc etc etc.

If you don't have a kid then it might be easy to think it's 'selfish' for a parent to not learn the jumps. But the reality is that elements are for the coaches and judges to know, the rest of the stuff that is about making our skater feel comfortable and ready to practice or compete is the for parents to know.

VegMom said:

edit to add: FOR THOSE WHO THINK THIS CHART IS INACCURATE CAN YOU PLEASE SUGGEST A BETTER RESOURCE ?
ALSO, can you be specific? For instance, "no its not accurate" is not helpful. Instead, perhaps "My experience coaching 200 skaters suggests that the average total hours to master the double axel is closer to 3000 not 2500" or "This chart looks fairly accurate but only for elite skaters."

Click to expand...

It seems to me that you are assuming an accurate chart exists. (And how do you define "accurate", anyway?) The posters here have generously shared their experience and opinion that no such chart exists that is accurate by any measure, and they have gone through the effort of explaining their point. Even if you do not wish to hear that no such chart exists, it's not fair to say they have not been specific about their opinions about charts.

cl2 said:

It seems to me that you are assuming an accurate chart exists. (And how do you define "accurate", anyway?) The posters here have generously shared their experience and opinion that no such chart exists that is accurate by any measure, and they have gone through the effort of explaining their point. Even if you do not wish to hear that no such chart exists, it's not fair to say they have not been specific about their opinions about charts.

Click to expand...

I added that edit early on in the discussion when there were only a few comments. Read the first few comments in the thread and you can clearly see why I asked people to be specific.

If your child is male, he will have more opportunities at a given skill level than a girl would.

For example, at US regionals, juvenile-intermediate-novice, a boy who scores in the 50th percentile of his region might move on to sectionals. A girl who scores in 50th percentile would not get past the qualifying rounds at regionals.

(On the other hand, it can be harder to find meaningful competitions for boys close to home at lower levels, so if he wants to compete in nonqualifying competitions the travel expenses would likely be higher.)

Jump content will start separating out those with national potential from those without sooner for boys than for girls. But basic skating skill is still at least as important, and it's much harder to measure on a chart.

You're in the US, right? You could use MITF tests as a proxy.

The novice test is the one with the lowest passing rate, that requires the most retries from skaters who eventually move on and weeds out skaters who don't have the talent or drive or resources to get to higher levels.

Just-passing several MITF tests a year might look impressive from one perspective, but making slower progress through the tests with higher scores might reflect stronger actual skill level.

As of next September, USFS is going to start giving "distinction" and "honors" on tests that pass well above average (along with a change in the way that the tests are scored in numbers). The idea as I understand it is to encourage skaters to aim for quality and not to squeak pass the tests in as little time as possible.

Some serious competitors get the MITF tests out of the way early on, passing through senior moves by juvenile or intermediate level. Others focus more on the skills they need for competition and just fit in the tests when convenient over the years, or when they need the next level to test up in freestyle. The latter will probably end up scoring higher on the tests although the time to pass them took longer.

And then there's everyone who passes moves tests on their own schedules without competing seriously in freestyle.

Again there's no hard and fast timeline for an average or best rate of passing moves tests, and emphasis on time vs. quality can confuse the issue. But as a rough guideline, I'd say that passing more than one per year with scores well above passing on most moves would be an indication of talent and good technique, whereas just-passing the tests at the same rate would be commendable but nothing that would set the skater apart.

When you start competing at IJS levels (officially used at juvenile and above in the US, but some club competitions bring it down to pre-juvenile or lower, and I understand that will become the norm in the not-too-distant future), look at the GOEs and the program components. That will tell you not just what the skater did, but how well they did it in the assessment of the judges. You can compare roughly to other skaters at the same level -- what are typical scores at that level, and how does your skater fit in? Placement in a specific event is less meaningful because you might end up in strong fields where everyone scores relatively high for that level, or the opposite.

Seren said:

The more important issue is the skater's desire to skate combined with their natural talent. The skill acquisition chart posted here is nice in theory, but not correct. You couldn't make a chart like that truly accurate, there are too many variables.

The real question is- does the child want to skate and how much do they want to skate. If a child loves skating but isn't necessarily gifted, is their skating less important than a more talented skaters? The majority of skaters won't get to double axels and triple jumps. That doesn't mean they can't take it seriously. I would be very wary about using a rigid measuring standard to measure a young skaters progress. I've seen skaters fly through levels and then get stuck, and I've seen skaters who were slower starters end up at higher levels.

The chart doesn't even touch at injuries.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread. There's no use obsessing over averages like this - it just adds a lot more pressure on children, in my opinion. That's not to say I don't understand your concerns, skating isn't a very convenient sport after all, but I think the decision whether or not to pursue skating shouldn't depend on (possible) success.

ayame said:

This is exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread. There's no use obsessing over averages like this - it just adds a lot more pressure on children, in my opinion. That's not to say I don't understand your concerns, skating isn't a very convenient sport after all, but I think the decision whether or not to pursue skating shouldn't depend on (possible) success.

Click to expand...

I can't offer a skating-wise answer. But looking at similar competitive fields (my mother was a professional gymnast, I have a professional music training) "charts" are often just for the peace of mind of worried parents. And are usually wrong. The biggest problem they have is that they make it seem kind of a spending machine: put here 1€ and you get a soda can; put here 100000 hours and you get a quad axel. And it doesn't work that way at all: every body is different (every body is different and puberty affects us all in a different way), everyone's learning curve is different...
When dealing with young children it's true that some take to learning faster than others. But sadly this isn't any indicative of anything else: they may hit much earlier the "line" where you get stuck. On the other hand, slower-learning kids may have a strong foundation that they build over the years, constantly. So which one is the one that has talent? In my experience as a teacher it's the one that keeps the enthusiasm. Now, that's kind of a tricky answer, because who keep their enthusiasm? The ones that are good at it. You like it because you're good at it and you're good at it because you like it and so you can put more of yourself on the activity —and this stands true for everything you do.

So "even" if the chart is accurate (and I'm not going to say anything about it because there has been more insight about this coming from people with way more knowledge and experience than me), even if the chart is good, it doesn't mean anything in retrospect to your child, I'm sorry.
But if he already loves skating that's a pretty good indicative that he can put a lot of effort into it. The kind of effort that pays off, be it in skating or in other areas —for me, managing to fit 30 extra hours per week in my already full high school schedule has helped me develop a very good strong focus. I'm not meant to be a soloist, but I teach classes, I'm young and already almost completely financially independent, and having half of my life dedicated professionally to music even if it's not my main dedication anymore, doesn't feel like a failure at all. So if he gets a good coach (and all the sacrifices that come with it) for a few years and it pays off in skating, that's great, if not, I'm sure he can learn a lot from it too.

No one can predict the future, and the kind of comparations that come from chart, from averaging tons of people with no real data, only hurts the children, and makes them anxious both in competitions and to show result. It's overall a really bad idea.

By the way, the thing about trusting coaches. When I get a young kid who is really interested in music, when they have perfect pitch, etc, I'm always telling the parents to put them in the conservatory. Trust the teacher to want the best for the kids. We don't want more money at the cost of a person's life, what kind of horrible person would do that? Not in that direction and not in the other direction either (I won't try to get into my class a kid that's not interested, I won't steal a kid from another teacher, wow! I mean, I can't think about anyone doing that! (well, I can think of one exception, but the music world is crazy))

VegMom said:

I've already explained... but the reason I'm looking for the type of information given by this chart is to get a better sense of how much (time, money, travel, etc) to invest in this.

Click to expand...

If that is your true question, the answer is easy. As much as time and money you are willing to commit. That is you family's decision and no one can answer it for you.

Be warned, regardless of your child's level, you will find another family at the same level as your child doing more. I used to think of myself as a pretty hard core skating parent. But after looking around, I realized that I am pretty lax when compared to others.

concorde said:

If that is your true question, the answer is easy. As much as time and money you are willing to commit. That is you family's decision and no one can answer it for you.

Be warned, regardless of your child's level, you will find another family at the same level as your child doing more. I used to think of myself as a pretty hard core skating parent. But after looking around, I realized that I am pretty lax when compared to others.

Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Since the child in question is a boy, there are going to be some differences between his experience and the more common experience for girls. That being said, there is no way to predict what will happen in the future. I do understand where you're coming from, OP, because I sat down with my daughter's coach when she was 8 and had the very same conversation about how much to commit when you are making decisions for a 2nd grader that will decide what opportunities they will have in 5 years.

In our case, we came up with a pretty solid plan to get her to Juvenile level at age 13, which was derailed by a USFS rule change. So, even if you follow a good plan and are really on track, anything can happen. My daughter's juvenile year isn't going to happen and because we don't have the facilities here to go much higher, she's basically done competing IJS before she started. Anything can happen, so the last thing anyone should do is over-extend themselves. Assume most people will not get to a level where the financial contribution "pays off" in some way.

If you are looking at skating as a financial strain right now, then it's unlikely you will want to spend the mid 5-figures it takes to get a skater to nationals. The vast majority, even those who spend mid 5-figures, will not make it to nationals. Look at it as a gift to your child, not an investment.

VegMom said:

I've already explained... but the reason I'm looking for the type of information given by this chart is to get a better sense of how much (time, money, travel, etc) to invest in this.

Click to expand...

I understand that you're trying to do due diligence as a parent, but if your purpose is to figure out if skating is the right "investment" in your child, then I urge you to recognize that basing your decisions on a chart of numbers is not the right way to go. This is what the other posters are trying to tell you: do not treat your child like a data point to be benchmarked against some statistics. Perhaps you've drank the "data science" and "predictive modeling" koolaid, but the fact is, there's no such predictive model for skating success, and even less so a predictive model based only on jumps.

There are only qualitative indicators, including quality of basic skating skills, innate talent, mental strength and perseverance, etc., that an experienced coach would look for to identify a skater as "having potential". And yet, having potential does not mean the skater will enjoy success. As has been mentioned by other posters, there are so many uncontrollable factors: hitting a brickwall (not uncommon), career-ending injuries (also not uncommon), loss of interest (e.g. peer pressure in teenage years), among others.

Also, if you "invest" in your child's skating only if you expect a return on your investment (be it him landing quads, or competing at the elite level, or bringing home medals, or whatever you've pre-defined as success), then I'm sorry, I would hate to be your child. It has nothing to do with talent or ability to do it, rather, it is a terrible psychological pressure that could end up destroying any passion for the sport (and consequently any self-motivation to work hard and make progress).

AndreaRu says it perfectly, look at it as a gift to your child. Also, there is so much more a child learns when pursuing his passion: discipline, determination, goal setting, character development, etc., social skills when interacting with fellow skaters/competitors, teamwork if doing pairs/dance/synchro... basically a wealth of life experience.

cl2 said:

I understand that you're trying to do due diligence as a parent, but if your purpose is to figure out if skating is the right "investment" in your child, then I urge you to recognize that basing your decisions on a chart of numbers is not the right way to go. This is what the other posters are trying to tell you: do not treat your child like a data point to be benchmarked against some statistics. Perhaps you've drank the "data science" and "predictive modeling" koolaid, but the fact is, there's no such predictive model for skating success, and even less so a predictive model based only on jumps.

There are only qualitative indicators, including quality of basic skating skills, innate talent, mental strength and perseverance, etc., that an experienced coach would look for to identify a skater as "having potential". And yet, having potential does not mean the skater will enjoy success. As has been mentioned by other posters, there are so many uncontrollable factors: hitting a brickwall (not uncommon), career-ending injuries (also not uncommon), loss of interest (e.g. peer pressure in teenage years), among others.

Also, if you "invest" in your child's skating only if you expect a return on your investment (be it him landing quads, or competing at the elite level, or bringing home medals, or whatever you've pre-defined as success), then I'm sorry, I would hate to be your child. It has nothing to do with talent or ability to do it, rather, it is a terrible psychological pressure that could end up destroying any passion for the sport (and consequently any self-motivation to work hard and make progress).

AndreaRu says it perfectly, look at it as a gift to your child. Also, there is so much more a child learns when pursuing his passion: discipline, determination, goal setting, character development, etc., social skills when interacting with fellow skaters/competitors, teamwork if doing pairs/dance/synchro... basically a wealth of life experience.

Click to expand...

:agree:

I don't want this to come across wrong, but I'm just thinking about this in my normal matter of fact, objective way... the same lens I use to evaluate my own skater. I think most people with experience in the sport can look at a skater and know whether they can be successful at higher levels IF they are able to get the jumps and spins they need. So much of skating is not about those jumps and spins -- a LOT of skaters will be able to jump and spin. A lot of those jumps and spins will be mediocre.

The truth is that the really good ones start out with some common traits -- beautiful extension, lovely hand/arm positions, an understanding of exactly when to bend the knees and when to lock them, a natural ability to move with the music, great body awareness (not putting themselves in weird-looking positions), charismatic presence that is evident to others besides their parents, etc. They didn't start out fumbling much, most of them took to the ice like ducks to water -- not just with throwing themselves into a jump, but with the way they move across the ice. These are the important things that do not appear on that chart and are hard to really teach.

The turns and moves can be taught, but there are some people who just will never do those things beautifully no matter how hard they try. Being able to do things beautifully is mandatory in this sport because it's not just about whether you can do the jump. These common traits are just givens throughout the higher levels. It doesn't matter if you have 5 quads -- you still need that something special that makes you magical to watch on the ice.

Just going to say that I do not in any way treat my child as a data point. And I’m not considering pulling the plug on skating either, it would be cruel to do that to him. I’m offended any of you would say that about me.

Also, I’ve been reading everything I can. Not just this chart but many articles and guides. So I’m not ‘basing everything on this one chart’. The chart is just a conversation starter here.

(As an aside, predictive modeling is what my spouse does for work. We’ve talked about how impossible it is for figure skating. So... no that’s no what I’m doing.)

:hslap:

I am responding as someone who has been working for 5 years at an ice rink, where there are several freestyle sessions a day, every day, plus a lot of kids practice freestyle in public sessions which are at least 2 or 3 every single day, plus we are in the top 2 largest LTS programs in the USA. I have been watching the same large number of kids skating for several years, some from the first day they skated who are now consistently landing doubles, and some who were already competing and a handful who consistently land triples.

Many of these skaters are from sets of siblings who are close in age, who start skating at the same time, at the same level, for the same amount of time, with the same coaches, and with the same financial and time investments from their parents. You can bet the siblings of respective sets are not getting all the same jumps, spins, moves, and wins in the same time frame. It is not always the older ones getting things before the younger ones. I can see it is hard on sibling rivalry when one of does things before the other, especially when the younger one progresses faster overall. The parents are giving equal attention, the coaches are giving equal attention.

The charts with fictional averages can't explain why this happens. Every person is unique, and every situation is unique. There is too much uniqueness to come up with a chart that is accurate. I am sure the parents of sets of skating siblings are not basing their decisions on charts and deciding to stop letting one child skate but not the other.

VegMom said:

Just going to say that I do not in any way treat my child as a data point. And I’m not considering pulling the plug on skating either, it would be cruel to do that to him. I’m offended any of you would say that about me.

Also, I’ve been reading everything I can. Not just this chart but many articles and guides. So I’m not ‘basing everything on this one chart’. The chart is just a conversation starter here.

(As an aside, predictive modeling is what my spouse does for work. We’ve talked about how impossible it is for figure skating. So... no that’s no what I’m doing.)

Click to expand...

My apologies, it is not my intention to offend you. It's a relief that you clarified that the impression I got previously was wrong.

All the best in your research and future decisions.

Well it's obvious that you are all very committed to figure skating because I'm the only one suggesting that the RISKS of skating possibly outweigh the benefits if the skater's goals are unachievable.

Note that these are HIS goals and his coach's goals, NOT MY GOALS. I honestly do not really care for figure skating that much and I have ZERO goals related to it. I can't even tell the difference between the jumps - and I have no desire to learn, except to support my child. Honestly, I think it's all pretty boring. I don't actually like it, sorry! EVERYTHING I learn about skating is because I'm trying to support my child. I couldn't care less about it myself.

My goals for my child are to develop a love of sport, to be a lifelong athlete, to follow his dreams and passions REALISTICALLY, to have a strong sense of self and feel safe expressing who he is, to be a good and kind person. I don't care if he goes to Nationals or the Olympics.

*ETA: This post was a reaction to the assumptions made that I was some sort of stagemom pushing my kid too far too fast. Some people have made too much of this post, assuming that if I don't love figure skating then I'm going to drive my skater away from it and there's going to be lifelong resentment about it. Well, that's ridiculous. My son is too young to make declarations like that. This isn't his first passion nor is it the only sport that coaches have said, "Wow, that kid has natural talent" and they've been excited to train with him. And besides, there are plenty of people whose parents don't share their passions. All I have to do is provide the necessary support, I don't have to love the sport to be a good parent!

VegMom said:

Well it's obvious that you are all very committed to figure skating because I'm the only one suggesting that the RISKS of skating possibly outweigh the benefits if the skater's goals are unachievable.

Note that these are HIS goals and his coach's goals, NOT MY GOALS. I honestly do not really care for figure skating that much and I have ZERO goals related to it. I can't even tell the difference between the jumps - and I have no desire to learn, except to support my child. Honestly, I think it's all pretty boring. I don't actually like it, sorry! EVERYTHING I learn about skating is because I'm trying to support my child. I could care less about it myself.

My goals for my child are to develop a love of sport, to be a lifelong athlete, to follow his dreams and passions REALISTICALLY, to have a strong sense of self and feel safe expressing who he is, to be a good and kind person. I don't care if he goes to Nationals or the Olympics.

Click to expand...

Well, that escalated.

I think everyone was just trying to answer your questions. You didn't really ask about the risk vs. benefits in your OP and it hasn't been a main theme of the conversation, so I'm not surprised that people haven't been discussing it. There are risks to any sport, but I've honestly seen more kids with injuries from just being a kid than I have from skating. We had one skater break an ankle but outside of that, there hasn't been as much as a bump on the head in our club for 3+ years. And honestly, all the bumps on the head before that were one particular skater who is dealing with *another* concussion right now having switched to hockey.

If you're the kind of kid who is fearless to the point of not knowing your own limits, injuries are probably more likely. If you have a good off-ice training program and coaches who train you within your limits, a lot of injuries can be avoided. Honestly, though, it doesn't seem like this was really the point of the OP and I feel like we're moving the goal posts a little.

AndreaRu said:

I think everyone was just trying to answer your questions. You didn't really ask about the risk vs. benefits in your OP and it hasn't been a main theme of the conversation, so I'm not surprised that people haven't been discussing it .

Click to expand...

It's been about risk the entire time. A variety of risks - risk of injury, risk of financial ruin, risk of putting all your eggs into one basket, etc.

I brought up injuries in post 10, which is pretty early in the thread. Again I wrote in post 25:

VegMom said:

The biggest issue for me as a parent is that early specialization is REQUIRED for big success in figure skating but early specialization at sports results in SIGNIFICANT risks. So as a parent it's crucial to try to evaluate whether or not my skater's dreams of success are realistic. I want to develop this little human. But my athletic goals for my skater (to enjoy sport, to find lifelong fitness, to be healthy) seem to be at utter odds with my skater's chosen sport.

Click to expand...

FYI the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends avoiding specializing in one sport before puberty. They say:
"Research supports the recommendation that child athletes avoid early sports specialization. Those who participate in a variety of sports and specialize only after reaching the age of puberty tend to be more consistent performers, have fewer injuries, and adhere to sports play longer than those who specialize early."
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2016/08/25/peds.2016-2148
https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the...sk-Injury-in-Single-Sport-Specialization.aspx

They also say "About 70 percent of children drop out of organized sports by age 13, research shows."
And there's a caveat about figure skating (that there's not enough specific evidence about it and other sports that require early specialization to succeed longterm - but one can surmise that this stat is likely true of skating too, even many in this thread explain that tons of skaters quit before reaching the most difficult jumps).

A prudent parent would take this information and make careful decisions about their child's athletic future. On the one hand, talent and passion go far. On the other hand, it's very easy to burn out, overtrain, and get injured.

---
Your experience may differ, but I'm fairly certain that elite skaters nearly always have some injury. And no, not every sport has lots of risks. Some have more than others. Figure skating certainly comes with risk of broken bones, concussions, sprains, and other injuries to joints and spine, as well as overuse injuries. And there's risk of disordered eating. And there's related risks to figure skating - for instance, hockey. For me, there's a real worry my kiddo will switch to hockey eventually, especially if he can't get far in figure skating.

From the Chron:
“Ice skating is so artistic, people view it as closer to golf as opposed to ice hockey,” said Dr. Mark Adickes, medical director of Memorial Hermann's Sports Medicine Institute. “But when it comes to injuries, it's closer to hockey. Skaters reach an elite level at such a young age and exert so much power that injuries after their careers are over are common, especially spine and hip injuries.” [...] Adickes estimates at least 25 percent of elite skaters will have significant injuries.
http://www.chron.com/news/health/ar...is-beautiful-on-the-ice-brutal-on-1696548.php

also:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12860537/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24030306
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10036716
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16882806
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15231918

And just go read the concussions thread. Lots of top skaters have admitted to having multiple serious concussions: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?64901&p=1749412#post1749412

Maybe you haven't seen it at your rink yet. I have seen quite a few injuries. One girl broke her ankle landing a jump. One girl accidentally got stabbed in the back when she fell on another's toe pick, needed stitches. A boy got smacked in the side of the head, left crying with an ice pack - I don't know the outcome. And countless other bumps and bruises. And those are just the acute injuries. The chronic ones can also be worrisome - how many young skaters would knowingly accept painful arthritis for the majority of their lives as a consequence of skating? Or the risk of possible opioid addiction as a result of trying to curb that arthritic pain?

ETA: Fact is, figure skating is very similar to skateboarding when it comes to injuries. And no one thinks of skateboarding* as a 'safe' sport like swimming or golf. For injury risk, figure skating is less like dance and more like skiing. There are risks in everything, sure. But there are more risks with certain things than others. Are the risks of figure skating like base jumping or motocross? No. But the risks are higher than tennis or rowing. You can choose to ignore the stats if they don't fit with your experience if you want, but that doesn't actually change reality.

( *I'm talking about skateboarding like a sport. Remember, it's an Olympic sport now. Kids who skateboard as a sport practice in a manner that is similar to how kids figure skate - they go to skateparks on a regular basis and have practice sessions with other skaters. Injuries occur often due to collision with other kids at skateparks just like at ice rinks. Both sports involve rolling at high speeds on a hard, unforgiving surface, doing tricks, and interacting with others at the location where they practice their sport. But skateboarding has much more cultural acceptance of helmets and in fact most skate parks in the US require helmets for anyone under 18. I don't know of any ice rinks that require helmets but a handful do suggest them or offer them.)

VegMom said:

It's been about risk the entire time. A variety of risks - risk of injury, risk of financial ruin, risk of putting all your eggs into one basket, etc.

I brought up injuries in post 10, which is pretty early in the thread. Again I wrote in post 25:



FYI the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends avoiding specializing in one sport before puberty. They say:
"Research supports the recommendation that child athletes avoid early sports specialization. Those who participate in a variety of sports and specialize only after reaching the age of puberty tend to be more consistent performers, have fewer injuries, and adhere to sports play longer than those who specialize early."

---
Your experience may differ, but I'm fairly certain that elite skaters nearly always have some injury. And no, not every sport has lots of risks. Some have more than others. Figure skating certainly comes with risk of broken bones, concussions, sprains, and other injuries to joints and spine, as well as overuse injuries. And there's risk of disordered eating. And there's related risks to figure skating - for instance, hockey. For me, there's a real worry my kiddo will switch to hockey eventually, especially if he can't get far in figure skating.

From the Chron:
“Ice skating is so artistic, people view it as closer to golf as opposed to ice hockey,” said Dr. Mark Adickes, medical director of Memorial Hermann's Sports Medicine Institute. “But when it comes to injuries, it's closer to hockey. Skaters reach an elite level at such a young age and exert so much power that injuries after their careers are over are common, especially spine and hip injuries.” [...] Adickes estimates at least 25 percent of elite skaters will have significant injuries.
http://www.chron.com/news/health/ar...is-beautiful-on-the-ice-brutal-on-1696548.php

also:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12860537/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24030306
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10036716

And just go read the concussions thread. Lots of top skaters have admitted to having multiple serious concussions: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?64901&p=1749412#post1749412

Maybe you haven't seen it at your rink yet. I have seen quite a few injuries. One girl broke her ankle landing a jump. One girl accidentally got stabbed in the back when she fell on another's toe pick, needed stitches. A boy got smacked in the side of the head, left crying with an ice pack - I don't know the outcome. And countless other bumps and bruises. And those are just the acute injuries. The chronic ones can also be worrisome - how many young skaters would knowingly accept painful arthritis for the majority of their lives as a consequence of skating? Or the risk of possible opioid addiction as a result of trying to curb that arthritic pain?

Click to expand...

First of all please forgive me ahead of time for the bluntness and forwardness that will be coming forth in this post.

I have skated for almost 30 years at this point, and am a former elite skater (now pro), I have skated since I was around 3 years old: Have I had injuries to my ankles and knees from long term wear and tear? Yes. Do I have joint pain? yes from time to time I do. Have I become an opioid addict from it? No. Have any of my other elite athlete friends who may or may not have former injuries become addicts over it? NO!

All this talk of risk is ridiculous. Every sport there is comes with risk. Heck, walking out the front door of your home in the morning comes with risk? So maybe you shouldn't let your child do that anymore either. Perhaps roll the kid in bubble wrap?

There are many other sports that come to mind when I think of risks and horrible long term injuries (possible): Ski racing, slalom ski racing, gymnastics, diving, skeleton, bobsled, etc.

Even if your kid became a part of that 1-2 percentile that ends up as an elite figure skater, he wouldn't be coming into that until at least his teens or later, so that throws some of those "statistics" you've cited out the window. And we are nowhere close to golf or hockey at the elite levels. Sorry. I've never seen a golfer doing choreo on the course in my lifetime so that's just a stupid comparison.

As far as concussions: Yes I've had them. Where did my worst one come from? Fainting at home from having the flu. I have had a whiplash one but that's not counted by any of the specialists I've seen in the past in my case, because it didn't happen on the ice. So again, your statistics aren't serving you too well here.

Now the other injuries you've sighted. The girl that broke her ankle while landing a jump, more than likely was bad technique and carelessness or a break down in her boot, the girl that got stabbed in the back with a toe pick....very rare freak accident. Kid smacked in the head? Was it from a fall where he hit the ice or boards or were he or another skater not watching where they were going and collided? Because that would be another more rare thing left to carelessness.

Now, as far as AndreaRu's post that you quoted. IDK where she is located so IDK the extensiveness or level of the skating center at which she goes. It may be in a small locale and not have high level coaches. Or perhaps it is and they have a great protocol, I'll let her answer that for you.

I can only say for myself that I have trained in multiple top training centers over the years in the US and Canada with some of the best coaches there are, coaches you and your kid see on television. And injuries do happen. More so in ice dance and pairs, but yes they also occur in singles. Some can be freak accidents, some not so much. But are skaters getting injured every time you turn around? No. In a period of several decades in this sport I have had a total of 5 injuries (and no I'm not a freak of nature), one of my best friends has had 3 and he has been skating about the same length of time. The fact of the matter is, it's a sport and all sports come with the possibilities of injuries. And as the risk for the reward increases as the sport goes along (emphasis and push for men to be doing multi quads per program and ladies doing triple triples and 3A's), you are going to see more injuries (such as this Grand Prix season with many of the men).

From your other ranting post (post #57 to be exact), you made clear to everyone here what I had been thinking since page one of this thread. You can deny it all you want but you have a strong dislike for our sport and deep down don't want to be bothered with your kid attempting it and you don't want to be put out financially or otherwise because of his possible love for this wonderful sport. You can say all you want about how you're only wanting to do it if it makes him happy or successful etc. But in the end you're going to be breeding resentment from your kid because he knows mom hates everything there is in this sport and doesn't want him doing it and could care less to learn anything about it: Such as recognizing the jumps or something as simple as saying "hey kiddo your 3 turns and mohawks are getting better.", because that requires you to care about the sport enough to learn along with the kid without being on the ice yourself.

One last tidbit of info for you here: Ask myself or any other elite figure skater out there and they will tell you that they wouldn't be where they were without the extensive efforts of their parents and how much their parents took to learning about the sport while they were out there working endlessly for years with coaches and choreographers and the like. If you aren't going to be giving a care to the sport and what it's about and take some interest in it outside of just your kid then that's hurting your kid more than it would be helping him. And since it's a "he" that makes it even harder for him because boys get bullied by their non-rink peers and have a harder go of it than girls. Look at the "get up" campaign from US figure skating.

Again, I am sorry if this comes off harsh, but I'm just stating the truth of the matter. I am very passionate about my sport (which does have it's flaws), but it's still a great sport. I have formed skills on and off the ice and friendships that will last a lifetime and I wouldn't give it up for the world. I will never be able to thank my parents enough for encouraging me at such a young age, same with my coaches and other training staff then and all the way up.

This is something that you need to discuss with your kid NOW, not later. There is no chart to tell you anything about how things will turn out.
I would hate to see you tell him that he cannot continue in the sport because mom is being selfish about having anything to do with it on her end. I cannot see a good outcome here that doesn't end up in resentment now or down the road and it makes me very sad to say that.

I wish you and your kiddo all the best.
Good luck.