Chen edges out Uno for gold in Japan

rabbit1234 · Dec 12, 2017

sheetz said:
Fans might grumble but I do think it was a sound strategy for the top guys to go for aggressive layouts at the GPF, all things considered. The skaters need to see how far they can push themselves under the pressure of competition, and it's a trivial matter to dial back the technical difficulty later on. OTOH, had they been successful Brian Orser would be waking up in a cold sweat every night.

Nathan needs to drop 4S ASAP because every time he pops it his program goes into a downward spiral. I think it would reasonable for him to attempt a 5 quad, 1 3A program with 2x4Lz, 2x4T, 4F.

I think that he will not remove 4S.
Because edge jumps almost disappear through SP and FP.
He proved to be able to perform nearly no mistake with 5 quads with 4 S like this year's National.

Nathan is a candidate for the Olympic gold medal.
He understands how many points BV needs in order to win rather than the opponent's mistake.
For him, FP will need BV 115.
It is unthinkable for him to make it less than 4 quads.
Because BV is his weapon.
To him as to lower the BV is the same as abandoning his weapons

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 12, 2017

Mussique said:
The winner shouldn't be able to win with a sloppy performance. It makes the whole sport look absolutely terrible. It's all about finding the balance, and with the technical growth the sport has been having lately that's still obviously not there yet. I mean, it's a pity because everyone can have a bad day, but that's sports for you.

Agreed, as a general statement. However, a sloppy performance doesn't just constitute successful jumping passes, it's the overall program. And also, a sloppy performance can still win if everyone else bombs as well. Hanyu's Olympic FS was sloppy, but even with 2 falls it was first overall, because the others did poorly too. And that was before the guys started going crazy with the number of quads.

I think with 4 or 5 quads, a skater still has the POTENTIAL to skate cleanly, and skaters should challenge themselves.

We also can't expect skaters to be perfect or even close to perfect every time they go out. They're not doing exhibitions with jumps they're comfortable with - they are doing difficult elements in an attempt to defeat their competitors. So of course things could get riskier and sloppier.

Do you really want an Olympics where nobody goes for huge difficulty and everyone skates clean? I mean, that is preferable to a splatfest, but there's not much excitement if there is no risk or the technical envelope isn't being pushed. A quad lutz/flip/loop have never been landed at the Olympics, and if these guys hold back on their content, the sport doesn't progress forward and the world doesn't see these technical strides that have really pushed figure skating to its technical limit.

Now is when it gets super interesting/exciting, since the guys aren't holding back and are going for broke, but maybe that's just me.

Mathman · Dec 12, 2017

Something just (belatedly) occurred to me on the subject of whether the ISU should place a limit on the number of quads permitted in a program. Our first reaction is: of course not, let the skaters do as many as they can and the devil take the hindmost.

But then, if you think about it, the whole thrust of the balanced program requirement is that the skaters must present mastery of the "full vocabulary of skating" (I love that phrase

). There is a limit on the total number of jumps you are allowed to do (currently 7 passes in the men's LP). There is a limit on how many 2- and 3-jump combinations you are allowed to do. There is a limit on the number of jumps that can be repeated. Etc. The whole point of the IJS rules is that the skaters should not do just one thing or one type of thing over and over. So it would be within the spirit of the ISU's intent if they said, "OK, you have done enough quads, now let's see what else you've got."

I don't think that the ISU will do this, but it would not be the end of the world if they did.

Tahuu · Dec 12, 2017

sheetz said:
Nathan needs to drop 4S ASAP because every time he pops it his program goes into a downward spiral. I think it would reasonable for him to attempt a 5 quad, 1 3A program with 2x4Lz, 2x4T, 4F.

Same thought here. Nathan’s 4Ts at the exhibitions were as easy as cakewalk and he may be able to do it in his sleep if he’s not tired or stressed to change the entry and add it after a pop or fall. He could skate clean by doing 2 4Lz and 4F in the first half and the 2 4T in the 2nd half, and than 3A2T, 3F and 3Lz to end the program.

Neenah16 · Dec 12, 2017

Let the men splat all over the ice, it is not like each fall is a possibility of an injury. No, it brings up viewership rates so it must be good

Also, let the men have all the quads and ignore transitions, choreography, and everything else. Difficulty is obviously only by jumping more. It is not like they need to have a good program if they are jumping quads, these lame things are for the weaklings who can't do quads :disapp:

Even more, we should have the ISU declare anyone with less than 3 quads disqualified from any major competition. They obviously don't deserve to be there and should stay in shows where they belong. Only someone who can sometimes rotate 4+ quads are worthy of medals

And more importantly, someone tell Nathan that his 4Lz and 4F are not difficult and he is only pushing himself by having 5 different types of quads in his free. It doesn't matter that those quads are not stable and are causing him trouble, it is absolutely not acceptable for him to have a program with only his strongest jumps, if he did, it would be a show program and he should be ashamed of himself

Mathman · Dec 12, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Do you really want an Olympics where nobody goes for huge difficulty and everyone skates clean? I mean, that is preferable to a splatfest, but there's not much excitement if there is no risk or the technical envelope isn't being pushed. A quad lutz/flip/loop have never been landed at the Olympics...

I think that the ISU is being lazy in not allowing skaters to really push the technical envelope. As far as feats never before accomplished at the Olympics, has anyone ever done a double Walley? A clockwise/counterclockwise double Lutz sequence, a toeless Lutz?

Must the only measure of the difficulty of a program be "how many total degrees did a skater achieve on standard jumps?" I won because I rotated 2520 degrees and you only rotated 2340. Figure skating isn't barrel jumping. (I jumped 23 barrels and you only jumped 22.

)

That said, I am looking forward to the first 4T-4T combo next year. Then we can all say, "What is this, the ladies' competition? Go away and come back when you can do a man's combo, such as 4F+4T." :yes:

Jaana · Dec 12, 2017

I have followed figure skating for a long time and remember the time when men were landing double jumps and maybe one or two simpler triple jumps. After that things moved slowly forward and the final result was programs with triple jumps including the triple axel, which has been difficult for many skaters and still is. I have no doubt that in future we will start seeing programs with only quads plus triple axels landed consistently. I´d believe quad axel will take more time to realize... All that is called progress in our sport and with restricting quad jumps would just mean going backwards, IMO.

riminin · Dec 12, 2017

rabbit1234 said:
At least the Japanese people in the venue seemed to be interested in mens who had more mistakes than ladies who had few mistakes.
The men's rate is around 20%, and the average combined with the ladies SP in the first half is 14.4%, so you can read that the ladies' late is fairly low.
In Japan, the ladies are more popular than originally. From the era of midori ito ladies were popular.

2017　GPF
http://www.hochi.co.jp/entertainment...HT1T50127.html
https://news.infoseek.co.jp/article/...20171211_0086/

Men　SP　
12.6％（Maximum momentary rating　19.8％）

Ladies　SP　＆　men’s　FP
14.4％（Maximum momentary rating　　men’sFP　20.9％）

Ladies　FP
10.3％（Maximum momentary rating　15.9％）

Mens has a higher rating than ladies that have continued less mistakes.
There were no hanyu, Javier, Chan, etc this time.
However, it is high enough compared with the football's national team fight etc.

December 9, 2017
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2...000073-sph-ent

11.3％（Maximum momentary rating　17.4％)

Just to show the numbers above in a bigger picture (though it's just a trivia and I'm not sure whatever the conclusion it could possibly bring for the current discussion).

Audience rating for 2013 GPF in Fukuoka in Japan (so, just like this year, it was a pre-OG GPF and held in Japan)

SP Men&Ladies
average 16.0% (the peak rating 25.0% after Mao's performance)

FS Men
average 21.0% (the peak rating 28.8% after Hanyu's performance)

FS Ladies
average 23.1% (the peak rating 34.8% after Mao's performance)

As you see, general interest in this year's GPF was much lower in Japan than 4 years ago. Viewership ratings have got to do with the absence/presence of big stars. I don't think the number of quads per se can be made responsible for it.

rabbit1234 · Dec 12, 2017

riminin said:
Just to relativate the numbers above (though it's just a trivia and I'm not sure whatever the conclusion it could possibly bring for the current discussion)

Audience rating for 2013 GPF in Fukuoka in Japan (so, just like this year, it was a pre-OG GPF and held in Japan)

SP Men&Ladies
average 16.0% (the peak rating 25.0% after Mao's performance)

FS Men
average 21.0% (the peak rating 28.8% after Hanyu's performance)

FS Ladies
average 23.1% (the peak rating 34.8% after Mao's performance)
As you see, general interest in GPF was much lower this time in Japan.

From that time, the rating of the whole TV is decreasing.
It is a considerably high from the current rating

ISU Four Continents Championships 2017

https://www.videor.co.jp/tvrating/2017/02/1067.html

men’s　SP　　　10.7％
men’s　FP　　　12.7％
Ladies　SP 6.9％
Ladies　FP 9.5％

ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2017
https://www.videor.co.jp/tvrating/2017/04/1037.html

men’s　SP　　　 12.7％
Ladies　FP men’s　FP　　　18.1％

The popularity of Ladies is decreasing.

Anyway, men's who made more mistakes than Ladies who had few mistakes this time was interested in more people. People need a challenge and stimulation.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 12, 2017

Mathman said:
I think that the ISU is being lazy in not allowing skaters to really push the technical envelope. As far as feats never before accomplished at the Olympics, has anyone ever done a double Walley? A clockwise/counterclockwise double Lutz sequence, a toeless Lutz?

Must the only measure of the difficulty of a program be "how many total degrees did a skater achieve on standard jumps?" I won because I rotated 2520 degrees and you only rotated 2340. Figure skating isn't barrel jumping. (I jumped 23 barrels and you only jumped 22. )

That said, I am looking forward to the first 4T-4T combo next year. Then we can all say, "What is this, the ladies' competition? Go away and come back when you can do a man's combo, such as 4F+4T." :yes:

Skating isn't the only sport where the number of twists matters nowadays.

Here's Eizo Kenmotsu in 1976: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9apWb5bOsjE (doesn't even have 5 twists)

Here's Kenzo Shirai in 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OevKut6Ylro (has 22 twists; he even ends with a quad!)

Sport has to evolve; just as Nathan/Uno didn't bring their best to the GPF, Shirai messed up his routine at the Rio Olympics; sometimes when attempting great difficulty you run the risk of failing. But when it's good, it's incredible and that's the moments you live for as an athlete. A win by playing it safe, while a win, just isn't as satisfying.

It shouldn't be the only measure obviously, but if sports are about progression of athleticism, that is inherent in the elements and execution, and not the artistry.

shine · Dec 12, 2017

sheetz said:
Fans might grumble but I do think it was a sound strategy for the top guys to go for aggressive layouts at the GPF, all things considered. The skaters need to see how far they can push themselves under the pressure of competition, and it's a trivial matter to dial back the technical difficulty later on. OTOH, had they been successful Brian Orser would be waking up in a cold sweat every night.

Nathan needs to drop 4S ASAP because every time he pops it his program goes into a downward spiral. I think it would reasonable for him to attempt a 5 quad, 1 3A program with 2x4Lz, 2x4T, 4F.

That would be the logical thing to do, but I think part of the reason why he has insisted on doing the 4sal is because he prides himself in the fact that he not only can land multiple quads but also land different types of quads. And I think it’s alteady hurting him a little inside that he hasn’t been able to officially incorperate the 4L in his program yet. I do hope for his own psyche he gets rid of the sal but he might just be too stubborn to do it.

nekun · Dec 12, 2017

The funny thing is at GPF Nathan and Shoma did the clasic YuzuxPatrick "you get the title" "no, you get the title"

Or the clasic Yuzux Machinda at 2014 WC when Yuzu won over Machida by 0,33

Mathman · Dec 12, 2017

Jaana said:
All that [progressing from doubles to triples to quads] is called progress in our sport...

I guess I expect more.

To me, one good thing that the code of points judging system has brought is a greater attention to other aspects of figure skating than just rotating in the air, which is hardly a skating skill at all -- where does the skating come in? The video linked by Canadianskatingfan shows a gymnast twirling in the air on dry land. Well, skaters have to do it with the handicap of being weighted down by heavy boots, so I guess that's impressive.

As far as actual skating, what we have seen is an increased emphasis on blade-to-ice skills and transitions. That's progress, too. :clap:

Don't get me wrong. I like quads. Nothing wrong with quads. A well-done quad is a delight. A poorly done quad, not so much. A fall on a quad, no -- but good for you for trying your best, and here's your prize for participation in the competition. As they say at the rodeo, Let's give that cowboy a big hand; that's all he's going to get today.

Olympic · Dec 13, 2017

coldblueeyes said:
And where do you think his PCS should land in this particular field? It's noteworthy to point out that once again the TES is pushing the PCS up. It happened with all skaters, regardless of how they did and do.

Lower than 89.20, and it does happen to many skaters, but not this bad.

coldblueeyes · Dec 13, 2017

Olympic said:
Lower than 89.20, and it does happen to many skaters, but not this bad.

Yeah, right. :rolleye:

Tutto · Dec 13, 2017

Olympic said:
Lower than 89.20, and it does happen to many skaters, but not this bad.

coldblueeyes said:
Yeah, right.

Coldblueeyes, people just can't believe that judges might actually see & reward good SS, speed, flow and good ice coverage not to mention one of the best jumping techniques in the world. Thank God he didn't win GPF imagine the outcry :drama:

coldblueeyes · Dec 13, 2017

Tutto said:
Coldblueeyes, people just can't believe that judges might actually see & reward good SS, speed, flow and good ice coverage not to mention one of the best jumping techniques in the world. Thank God he didn't win GPF imagine the outcry

I don't even think he has the best technique in the world - considering how much Misha takes to start landing his bigger jumps, but it's undeniable that he has skills to back his PCS. I mean, is he not three points over Sergei? From all six guys at the GPF he has the best speed gain without effort, and I don't see his turns being any worse than what was presented by the other guys. Also, he is still behind Shoma and Jason in TR, and he had the worst PE from all six. However, the judges thought he was good enough to get a bump in CO and IN, so I don't see the reason to whine so much about his scores. He didn't even clean a competition yet with his five quads and people are already afraid (?) of what will happen when he does it.

Olympic · Dec 13, 2017

coldblueeyes said:
I don't even think he has the best technique in the world - considering how much Misha takes to start landing his bigger jumps, but it's undeniable that he has skills to back his PCS. I mean, is he not three points over Sergei? From all six guys at the GPF he has the best speed gain without effort, and I don't see his turns being any worse than what was presented by the other guys. Also, he is still behind Shoma and Jason in TR, and he had the worst PE from all six. However, the judges thought he was good enough to get a bump in CO and IN, so I don't see the reason to whine so much about his scores. He didn't even clean a competition yet with his five quads and people are already afraid (?) of what will happen when he does it.

No whining here and not really 'afraid' of what he is or isn't capable of.

The marks for composition and interpretation were too high. Around 9 points? That was not Elvis or anything close. Performance mark was also too high w/ 2 falls, a bad landing, and a pop. Again, combine the mistakes w/ the music and lack of interpretation, and I think the PCS marks were too high. I do think he deserves top score for his skating skills. Like butter. But, that is why I am an advocate for allowing a wide range of PCS marks: A performance like this can receive 9.5 for SS and a 7 for interpretation.

In the end, I understand that you will have your opinion, I will have mine and others will have theirs.

coldblueeyes · Dec 14, 2017

Olympic said:
The marks for composition and interpretation were too high. Around 9 points? That was not Elvis or anything close. Performance mark was also too high w/ 2 falls, a bad landing, and a pop. Again, combine the mistakes w/ the music and lack of interpretation, and I think the PCS marks were too high. I do think he deserves top score for his skating skills. Like butter. But, that is why I am an advocate for allowing a wide range of PCS marks: A performance like this can receive 9.5 for SS and a 7 for interpretation.

According to this, then, neither Jason, Adam or Nathan should have gotten close to the marks they received either - especially compared to Sergei. All three had falls, and Nathan, for example, had problems in five jumping passes. On the other hand, Sergei really has problems in SS and TR - he did add some transitions this year out of some jumps for example, but there's still a lot of nothing in his program. And, if Nathan got almost 9 for CO and IN, I don't see a problem with Mikhail scoring over him, and the judges thought the same.

The range of PCS marks is a problem, but it's not a problem for the scores of only one skater. If you want to open the box on his scores, you should probably analyze all the others too, because once the first skater receives his marks all the others have to fall in place around him.

Chen edges out Uno for gold in Japan

rabbit1234

CanadianSkaterGuy

Mathman

Tahuu

Neenah16

Mathman

Jaana

riminin

rabbit1234

CanadianSkaterGuy

shine

nekun

Mathman

Olympic

coldblueeyes

Tutto

coldblueeyes

Olympic

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