Chen edges out Uno for gold in Japan

coldblueeyes · Dec 10, 2017

evasorange said:
The real travesty of this event imo was Mikhail getting 95 tech for a program with a pop, and multiple step outs and falls. He should not have been able to podium. Would love to know just what exactly is going on behind the scenes in regards to the judging for him...it's been so obviously wrong and crazy all season

Go read the rules - or at least the protocols and come here to tell me where his scores went wrong. It's tiring, exhausting, draining to read this over and over again, because you clearly don't know why he's received these scores. People might want to complain about his programs, and about the falls, or whatever else they're on about that day, but he's playing by the rules. He gets the scores he gets for a combination of things:

-rotated jumps
-five jumping passes in the second half of the program (including a clean 4t-3t that garnered him 1/5 of his total TES)
-quads of high value

Even with a pop, his BV only in the FS was almost 12 points over Sergei, 17 over Adam and 25 over Jason. If you put the SP too, add at least 10 points to each. There's zero surprise in his scores, only for people who want to complain - for what reason, I have no idea. It's the same that happened at COR between him and Misha Ge, a thousand miles technically between them, for which no amount of GOE can make up.

You can even detract 5 points of his PCS in each segment and he still would have stayed in the exact same place in the podium. But mind you, had he landed a clean 3lo he'd have won the event, and I wonder what kind of mental gymnastics people would have to do then.

noskates · Dec 10, 2017

rabbit1234 said:
There are athletes who challenge the limit there.
A competitor who only fears his failure and can do his own surely is more boring.
If you want to see it, go to a professional ice show.
Because sports do not know what will happen, sports attracts people.
There are no popular sports such as soccer, basketball, golf, tennis, etc. without failure.
Because they challenge the limit, there is a failure, and a drama is born there.

I'm not interested in a "safe" professional ice show when I view a skating competition. There is enough of a challenge for any skater pushing the limits to skate a CLEAN program. It's been awhile since we've seen one of those. I don't think we should go back to the 6.0 judging system because it was too simple. But I do think there should be more of a penalty for falling on any jump.

rabbit1234 · Dec 10, 2017

noskates said:
I'm not interested in a "safe" professional ice show when I view a skating competition. There is enough of a challenge for any skater pushing the limits to skate a CLEAN program. It's been awhile since we've seen one of those. I don't think we should go back to the 6.0 judging system because it was too simple. But I do think there should be more of a penalty for falling on any jump.

For example

4T　10.3

fall　
GOE　-4
deduction　-1

PCS　-1to-2?

3.3

Is this fair?

If it is 3T, even junior competitor can land without mistake.
As preferential treatment of competitors who do not contribute to the evolution of the technical, we will lose technical progress for 30 years like ladie's.
Now the field of ladies is boring.
Is it so important to raise your hand during a jump?
Carolina Kostner is indeed a good competitor.
However, I think that the situation where she is still competing for the GPF podium from the 2006 Olympics yet it is likely to take a medal even at the 2018 Olympic Games is crazy.
Because it is evidence that sports are not progressing.

Olympic · Dec 10, 2017

I'm OK with the results. But, I think Kolyada getting 89.20 PCS is ridiculous for a performance w/ 2 falls, a pop, step outs and little connection to the music to which he is skating. He is a mismatch for Elvis Presley music. I still thought he did enough to be 3rd, but should not have been close to Chen or Uno. Interesting how his scores suddenly inflate by quite a bit in an olympic year.

coldblueeyes · Dec 10, 2017

Olympic said:
I'm OK with the results. But, I think Kolyada getting 89.20 PCS is ridiculous for a performance w/ 2 falls, a pop, step outs and little connection to the music to which he is skating. He is a mismatch for Elvis Presley music. I still thought he did enough to be 3rd, but should not have been close to Chen or Uno. Interesting how his scores suddenly inflate by quite a bit in an olympic year.

And where do you think his PCS should land in this particular field? It's noteworthy to point out that once again the TES is pushing the PCS up. It happened with all skaters, regardless of how they did and do.

noskates · Dec 10, 2017

Apparently Kolyada is your favorite skater - hence the persistence.

I don't care who it is or which country they represent - I want to see a clean program. The GPF was a travesty and embarassing for the sport. TES shouldn't push the PCS up in my opinion. They should be 2 different entities. Getting 10 points while falling on your butt just waters down the sport.

coldblueeyes · Dec 10, 2017

noskates said:
Apparently Kolyada is your favorite skater - hence the persistence.

I don't care who it is or which country they represent - I want to see a clean program. The GPF was a travesty and embarassing for the sport. TES shouldn't push the PCS up in my opinion. They should be 2 different entities. Getting 10 points while falling on your butt just waters down the sport.

He is, but I'm genuinely interested in arguments not just moaning and groaning about overscoring. It's not his fault that the rules give a skater almost 10 points if he falls on his butt on a quad lutz. I just think there's a bit of selective criticism towards some skaters, and not others, but whatever. I also don't think the TES should push the other part of the score, but it's exactly what happens. However, if you look at the judges' scores they valued each skater accordingly - Mikhail got the lowest score in PE, compared to Shoma and Sergei who got the highest, for example.

qwertyskates · Dec 10, 2017

coldblueeyes said:
And where do you think his PCS should land in this particular field? It's noteworthy to point out that once again the TES is pushing the PCS up. It happened with all skaters, regardless of how they did and do.

I don't like Elvis but Kolyada has the best SS, edges, flow, speed and jump technique of the entire GPF field. It doesn't matter to some people, they will refuse results that do not suit their worldview. Judges see these qualities, reward him for them, and that's what ultimately matter.

MaiKatze · Dec 10, 2017

The SP at CoC gave Kolyada the push he needed to be taken seriously by the judges. He's been marked as a contender now, and will receive high scores no matter what. That doesn't change the fact that he is highly inconsistent and remains that way. People can complain about Nathan and Shoma all they want, but both of them proved that they can indeed skate these difficult programs clean. It just didn't happen at the GPF. Short time memory seems to be have taken hold of many as well. Because Nathan, Shoma and Mikhail are not the only ones who can bomb and fall all over. Nathan and Shoma were, for example, the only ones who skated clean LP's at last years GPF, when the three other top men fell apart. With less quads. It annoys me that the new generation of skaters is being critisized for a bad competition when bad competitions always happened, even when skaters only had one quad or triple-triple combination in their programs.

madison · Dec 10, 2017

qwertyskates said:
I don't like Elvis but Kolyada has the best SS, edges, flow, speed and jump technique of the entire GPF field. It doesn't matter to some people, they will refuse results that do not suit their worldview. Judges see these qualities, reward him for them, and that's what ultimately matter.

I agree, and also he has great musicality, control over the body movements and charm. For example in the short program, his movements are in total agreement with the music. He is one of the most talented skaters nowadays. If only he could gain some consistency...

Tavi... · Dec 10, 2017

rabbit1234 said:
I think that you should go to an ice show, not a competition. However, in fact, professional competitions and ice shows are not as popular as competitions．
Although there was also a professional competition, it was not held because it is not popular.
I think that thrill, excitement and drama were missing there

World　 Number of deduction

year ： 24competitors ： TOP6 ： TOP3 ： TOP1
2006 ： 24 ： 5 ： 3 ： 0 2006 Winter Olympics
2006 ： 12 ： 2 ： 0 ： 0
2007 ： 19 ： 2 ： 1 ： 0
2008 ： 12 ： 1 ： 0 ： 0
2009 ： 11 ： 3 ： 1 ： 1
2010 ： 19 ： 3 ： 1 ： 0 2010 Winter Olympics
2010 ： 18 ： 4 ： 2 ： 0
2011 ： 19 ： 3 ： 0 ： 0
2012 ： 18 ： 5 ： 3 ： 2
2013 ： 18 ： 4 ： 2 ： 2
2014 ： 18 ： 4 ： 3 ： 2 2014 Winter Olympics
2014 ： 13 ： 0 ： 0 ： 0
2015 ： 18 ： 3 ： 3 ： 1
2016 ： 19 ： 3 ： 2 ： 0
2017 ： 19 ： 5 ： 1 ： 1

GPF　Number of deduction

2007 ： 4
2008 ： 10
2009 ： 4
2010 ： 4
2011 ： 6
2012 ： 8
2013 ： 7
2014 ： 8
2015 ： 3
2016 ： 9
2017 ： 9

Considering that Time Violation: -1.00 is also included, not a lot of special falls this year.

I personally prefer competitions to ice shows. In fact, I don’t like ice shows at all. I like the competitive aspect of sports, where athletes are striving for perfection and trying to beat each other.

But like Mussique, I neither want to hear someone attempt Rach 3 who can’t play it, nor watch a skating competition where competitors who attempt difficult jumps are highly rewarded for merely attempting them, regardless of how well they are executed or their effect on the overall quality of the rest of the program.

A quarterback who can only throw a pass accurately under pressure 40% of the time won’t be starting in the NFL. A point guard who misses his shots most the time won’t be starting on any team in the NBA.

Skating is different than most other sports because it’s not purely athletic. Programs are are choreographed to music, with step sequences, transitions, and spins as well as jumps, for a reason.

Unlike football and basketball, where scoring is the only thing that matters, skating was never intended to be purely about who gets the highest score for doing the hardest jumps. Points were assigned to individual program elements to make scoring more transparent and quantifiable - so that cheating would be more difficult - not to change the nature of the sport.

Seeing how many of your post are merely lists of statistics, I don’t think you understand that.

And I don’t think it’s your place to tell those of us who don’t like the current state of the sport to go watch an ice show.

Mussique · Dec 10, 2017

Tavi... said:
(Whole post)

/Claps

Also, I feel like we shouldn't need to explain this difference but football, athletism, etc, those are sports with a very strong set of rules. If at the end of the game you have more points than your competitor you win. If you have less seconds than your competitors you win. Those are easily measurable sports. This means that even if you make a mistake, if the end result is good enough, you're good to go. You fall during a run but are still faster than the rest? Good.

This also happens in figure skating, of course. A sport is always about comparing. But artistry is less easily measurable.
However we can all agree that a jump is a big mistake. Landing in two foot, a slightly smaller mistake, etc. The handbook of rules is set by the ISU, or whatever organization, and they can and should change the rulebook according what is needed for the sport —be it according to the audience or the rating of danger of the moves, etc. Remember that backflip in one foot?
If in athletism you want to run while doing hops backwards you can, it's just not effective. But there's no rule against it. Same in football. But, and I thought this was obvious, figure skating is not this kind of sport.
So, of course, you can agree or disagree here, but saying "falls should be punished more" doesn't mean a setback of the sport.
If this has been happening for a long time, then more the reason to change it, right?

rabbit1234 · Dec 10, 2017

I think that discussions should be made based on facts and data.
There is no fact that fall has increased.
Also,there is no fact that many quad competitors have made more mistakes than quad less competitors.
In addition, the competition is more popular than the ice show.

I think that promoting safe driving of cowards like an ice show only brings boredom to this sport.

chillgil · Dec 10, 2017

Yeah but i think people are frustrated that in the past few years there have been way more mistakes in empty programs that have 4-6 quads

rabbit1234 · Dec 10, 2017

For reference, Japan's a viewer rating is this.

2017　GPF
http://www.hochi.co.jp/entertainment/20171208-OHT1T50127.html
https://news.infoseek.co.jp/article/sponichin_20171211_0086/

Men　SP　
12.6％（Maximum momentary rating　19.8％）

Ladies　SP　＆　men’s　FP
14.4％（Maximum momentary rating　　men’sFP　20.9％）

Ladies　FP
10.3％（Maximum momentary rating　15.9％）

Mens has a higher rating than ladies that have continued less mistakes.

Originally, figure skating is a competition where ladies single are popular.

There were no hanyu, Javier, Chan, etc this time.
However, it is high enough compared with the football's national team fight etc.

December 9, 2017
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20171211-00000073-sph-ent

11.3％（Maximum momentary rating　17.4％)

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 10, 2017

qwertyskates said:
I don't like Elvis but Kolyada has the best SS, edges, flow, speed and jump technique of the entire GPF field. It doesn't matter to some people, they will refuse results that do not suit their worldview. Judges see these qualities, reward him for them, and that's what ultimately matter.

For all these qualities that are, in your opinion, the best of the field - he still erred on half of his jumping passes - including 2 falls and a pop. That is not exactly indicative of good technique in this case, and should not be rewarded.

Mathman · Dec 11, 2017

rabbit1234 said:
I think that promoting safe driving of cowards like an ice show only brings boredom to this sport.

Still, there is another side to the argument.

It is a well-established principle of sports that you do not get any points just for trying but not succeeding. The pole vaulter who attempts to clear the bar at 6 meters but fails does not get any points. A diver might attempt a dive of great difficulty, but if he splats on his belly his score is "no dive."

In figure skating there is great reward for doing a quad. This reward is so high that no one can win a championship without doing multiple quads. But an athlete should be scored by what he accomplishes, not by what he intends or hopes for. If a skater attempts a difficult quad but splats on his belly, the score should be "no jump."

The Olympic games or world championships is the time to show what you can do. It should not devolve into "garbage time."

rabbit1234 · Dec 11, 2017

Mathman said:
Still, there is another side to the argument.

It is a well-established principle of sports that you do not get any points just for trying but not succeeding. The pole vaulter who attempts to clear the bar at 6 meters but fails does not get any points. A diver might attempt a dive of great difficulty, but if he splats on his belly his score is "no dive."

In figure skating there is great reward for doing a quad. This reward is so high that no one can win a championship without doing multiple quads. But an athlete should be scored by what he accomplishes, not by what he intends or hopes for. If a skater attempts a difficult quad but splats on his belly, the score should be "no jump."

The Olympic games or world championships is the time to show what you can do. It should not devolve into "garbage time."

It is a score if you put the ball in GOAL whether to break the body and kick. That is the rule.

On the contrary, it is a question.

Why can we be a world champion with low difficulty competitors that are inferior to juniors such as 4T, 3A, 3Lz, 3F?
Where is he amazing?

If skating skills are high, you can also make a difficult jump.
Competitors with low difficulty should be punished.

Wow wonderful 2A-3T.
Awesome 3Lz-3T
It is impossible to be surprised that thirty years ago as many competitors were doing it would be wonderful even after thirty years.
New surges and new evolution are necessary for surprise and excitement.
If you keep doing the same thing for thirty years it is natural that people will not be surprised and will not be excited.

fireovertheice · Dec 11, 2017

MaiKatze said:
T Nathan and Shoma were, for example, the only ones who skated clean LP's at last years GPF, when the three other top men fell apart. With less quads. It annoys me that the new generation of skaters is being critisized for a bad competition when bad competitions always happened, even when skaters only had one quad or triple-triple combination in their programs.

I agree with you about the critics too harsh sometimes towards the quadsters (not only top three men of this GPF but also Yuzuru and Boyang). They are trying to do difficult things and to improve by doing them.
The problem to me is that, probably because of the capped and livelled on the top PCS, they are rushing too much in increasing difficulty and number of quads in the FS in these last two seasons. Because their general problem seems not to be the SP, but the FS.
And also: they not only fall more often (it's also statistics, with a greater number of quads...), but the quality of the other so called "landed" jumps and of the other elements is suffering.

These are the success rates in doing 4 clean quads with positive GOEs of Nathan and Shoma from the beginning of last season:

Nathan Chen, quads with at least 0 or positive GOEs
1) Finlandia Trophy 2016: only 1 quad (the 4T in the combo)
2) TdF 2016: 2 quads (the 4Lz in the initial combo, and the 4F)
3) NHK 2016: 2 quads (the 4F in combo, and the 4T in combo)
4) GPF 2016: 4 quads with positive GOE, from 2.00 (first quad) to 0.71 (last one)
5) 4CC 2017: 4 quads with positive GOE, from 2.43 (first quad) to 1.29 (last one); here attempted also the 5th quad
6) WC 2017: 2 quads (the 4F combo and the single 4F)
7) USA IC 2017: 2 quads (planned apparently to do so)
8) CoR 2017: 4 quads with positive GOE, from 2.00 (first quad) to 0.57 (the 3rd)
9) SA 2017: 2 quads (4Lz in the initial combo and the single 4Lz)
10) GPF 2017: 2 quads (4Lz in the initial combo and the 4T in the combo)

So: in the last 10 comps Nathan landed 1 quad in one, 2 quad in six, and 4 quads only in three. In these last the GOEs have never surpassed 2.43 and are in average about 2.00 for 4Lz and 4Lz combo, much lesser (0.50-1.80) for the other quads.
If we want to add JO 2017, Nathan landed only 2 quads with positive GOEs, initial 4Lo and the 4Lz combo. In WTT 2017 Nathan landed 3 quads with positive GOEs, the initial 4F combo, the 4T combo and the single 4T.
TOT. success rate 10 comps x 4 quads with positive GOE: 30%; adding JO and WTT > 25%

Shoma Uno, quads with at least 0 or positive GOEs:
1) LT 2016: only 1 quad (4T)
2) SA 2016: 3 quads (4F, 4T and 4T in the combo), with positive GOE, from 2.29 (2nd quad) to 1.43 (last one)
3) Cor 2016: 2 quads (4F and 4T)
4) GPF 2016: 2 quads (4F and 4T in the combo)
5) 4CC 2017: 3 quads (4Lo, 4F and 4T in the combo), with positive GOE, from 2.43 (1st quad) to 1.29 (last one)
6) WC 2017: 3 quads (4Lo, 4F and 4T in the combo), with positive GOE, from 2.14 (last quad) to 1.14 (2nd one)
7) LT 2017: 4 quads with positive GOE, from 2.00 (3rd quad) to 0.80 (first one)
8) SC 2017: 2 quads (4Lo and 4T in the combo)
9) IDF 2017: 2 quads (4Lo and 4T in the combo)
10) GPF 2017: 2 quads (4S and 4F)

So: in the last 10 comps Shoma landed 1 quad in one, 2 quad in five, 3 quad in three and 4 quads only in one (Lombardia Trophy at the beginning of this season). In this last he GOEs have never surpassed 2.00 and are in average about 0.80-1.80 for the other quads.
If we want to add JO 2017, Shoma landed only 2 quads with positive GOEs, initial 4Lo and the single 4T. In WTT 2017 Shoma landed again only 2 quads with positive GOEs, the same initial 4Lo and the single 4T.
TOT. success rate 10 comps x 4 quads with positive GOE: 10%; adding JO and WTT > 8,3%

* Sources: http://skatingscores.com/ and GS archives

Are these success rates and quality marks so good to let think people to go easily and to skate clean and well with a 5 quads layout now ...? Maybe it would better to consolidate a 4 quads layout before to attempt something more difficult...or not?

rabbit1234 · Dec 11, 2017

fireovertheice said:
I agree with you about the critics too harsh sometimes towards the quadsters (not only top three men of this GPF but also Yuzuru and Boyang). They are trying to do difficult things and to improve by doing them.
The problem to me is that, probably because of the capped and livelled on the top PCS, they are rushing too much in increasing difficulty and number of quads in the FS in these last two seasons. Because them general problem seems not to be the SP, but the FS. And also: they not only fall more often (it's also statistics, with a greater number of quads...), but the quality of the other so called "landed" jumps and of the other elements is suffering.

These are the success rates in doing 4 clean quads with positive GOEs of Nathan and Shoma from the beginning of last season:

Nathan Chen, quads with at least 0 or positive GOEs
1) Finlandia Trophy 2016: only 1 quad (the 4T in the combo)
2) TdF 2016: 2 quads (the 4Lz in the initial combo, and the 4F)
3) NHK 2016: 2 quads (the 4F in combo, and the 4T in combo)
4) GPF 2016: 4 quads with positive GOE, from 2.00 (first quad) to 0.71 (last one)
5) 4CC 2017: 4 quads with positive GOE, from 2.43 (first quad) to 1.29 (last one); here attempted also the 5th quad
6) WC 2017: 2 quads (the 4F combo and the single 4F)
7) USA IC 2017: 2 quads (planned apparently to do so)
8) CoR 2017: 4 quads with positive GOE, from 2.00 (first quad) to 0.57 (the 3rd)
9) SA 2017: 2 quads (4Lz in the initial combo and the single 4Lz)
10) GPF 2017: 2 quads (4Lz in the initial combo and the 4T in the combo)

So: in the last 10 comps Nathan landed 1 quad in one, 2 quad in six, and 4 quads only in three. In these last the GOEs have never surpassed 2.43 and are in average about 2.00 for 4Lz and 4Lz combo, much lesser (0.50-1.80) for the other quads.
If we want to add JO 2017, Nathan landed only 2 quads with positive GOEs, initial 4Lo and the 4Lz combo. In WTT 2017 Nathan landed 3 quads with positive GOEs, the initial 4F combo, the 4T combo and the single 4T.
TOT. succes rate 10 comps x 4 quads with positive GOE: 30%; adding JO and WTT > 25%

Shoma Uno, quads with at least 0 or positive GOEs:
1) LT 2016: only 1 quad (4T)
2) SA 2016: 3 quads (4F, 4T and 4T in the combo), with positive GOE, from 2.29 (2nd quad) to 1.43 (last one)
3) Cor 2016: 2 quads (4F and 4T)
4) GPF 2016: 2 quads (4F and 4T in the combo)
5) 4CC 2017: 3 quads (4Lo, 4F and 4T in the combo), with positive GOE, from 2.43 (1st quad) to 1.29 (last one)
6) WC 2017: 3 quads (4Lo, 4F and 4T in the combo), with positive GOE, from 2.14 (last quad) to 1.14 (2nd one)
7) LT 2017: 4 quads with positive GOE, from 2.00 (3rd quad) to 0.80 (first one)
8) SC 2017: 2 quads (4Lo and 4T in the combo)
9) IDF 2017: 2 quads (4Lo and 4T in the combo)
10) GPF 2017: 2 quads (4S and 4F)

So: in the last 10 comps Shoma landed 1 quad in one, 2 quad in five, 3 quad in three and 4 quads only in one (Lombardia Trophy at the beginning of this season). In this last he GOEs have never surpassed 2.00 and are in average about 0.80-1.80 for the other quads.
If we want to add JO 2017, Shoma landed only 2 quads with positive GOEs, initial 4Lo and the single 4T. In WTT 2017 Shoma landed again only 2 quads with positive GOEs, the same initial 4Lo and the single 4T.
TOT. succes rate 10 comps x 4 quads with positive GOE: 10%; adding JO and WTT > 8,3%

* Sources: http://skatingscores.com/ and GS archives

Are these success rates and quality marks so good to let think people to go easily and to skate clean and well with a 5 quads layout now ...? Maybe it would better to consolidate a 4 quads layout before to attempt something more difficult...or not?

Nathan is not good at 3A, not quad. Should he be 2A?
Somehow, those complaining about Quad do not recommend 2A to him, do they?

Chen edges out Uno for gold in Japan

coldblueeyes

noskates

rabbit1234

Olympic

coldblueeyes

noskates

coldblueeyes

qwertyskates

MaiKatze

madison

Tavi...

Mussique

rabbit1234

chillgil

Match Penalty

rabbit1234

CanadianSkaterGuy

Mathman

rabbit1234

fireovertheice

rabbit1234

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