Arm Variations Other Than Tano and Rippon

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 28, 2017

Shayuki said:
This made me curious for some unbiased opinions - Do you think that a tano performed like this looks bad? I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't even notice it was a tano at first. It really doesn't pop out like they tend to. Does this look good or not?

Very strange looking in my opinion...the combination of very long braids and bent arms during the jumps is a bit confusing to the point of almost distracting from the other aspects of her jumps. Have you paused the video to see the air position? It looks like the Madonna Vogue pose a little bit.

I have no opinion either good or bad but considering the strangeness of the whole program I guess the the technique is very fitting. Does she do it on all of her jumps ususlly?

Shayuki · Dec 28, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
Very strange looking in my opinion...the combination of very long braids and bent arms during the jumps is a bit confusing to the point of almost distracting from the other aspects of her jumps. Have you paused the video to see the air position? It looks like the Madonna Vogue pose a little bit.

I have no opinion either good or bad but considering the strangeness of the whole program I guess the the technique is very fitting. Does she do it on all of her jumps ususlly?

No, she mixes them up almost evenly. I think it's quite interesting, her other arm's very high up as well. I don't think it's just a program thing.

This is another where the camera angle actually allows you to see the entire thing.

See, it's really interesting because for just about everyone else when I see a tano I clearly see a tano, but with this one I'm like "wait, what?" and have to go back and watch it in slow-mo to actually recognize it. It can't be a standard tano, right? Or my brain just doesn't trigger the "Oh, a tano" response selectively for her. I think I watched these programs several times before realizing they are tanos, despite having an active dislike for tanos before ever seeing it. It doesn't stick out in the same manner for some reason. It's as if it meshes in due to how high the other arm is and due to the lack of space in between the head and the hand. Or is that just something I'm making up?

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 28, 2017

Shayuki said:
No, she mixes them up almost evenly. I think it's quite interesting, her other arm's very high up as well. I don't think it's just a program thing.

This is another where the camera angle actually allows you to see the entire thing.

See, it's really interesting because for just about everyone else when I see a tano I clearly see a tano, but with this one I'm like "wait, what?" and have to go back and watch it in slow-mo to actually recognize it. It can't be a standard tano, right? Or my brain just doesn't trigger the "Oh, a tano" response selectively for her. I think I watched these programs several times before realizing they are tanos, despite having an active dislike for tanos before ever seeing it. It doesn't stick out in the same manner for some reason. It's as if it meshes in due to how high the other arm is and due to the lack of space in between the head and the hand. Or is that just something I'm making up?

It’s just a very bent arm which I’ve never minded myself and am starting to prefer over the staight arm in terms of visual aesthetics. Have you watched the non tano arm? It’s in a very interesting position too. Does she do rippons too?

Yulia did a tano on a Lutz once and it was very similar looking.
https://youtu.be/soVGVnIu2Nk?t=4m31s

Shayuki · Dec 28, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
It’s just a very bent arm which I’ve never minded myself and am starting to prefer over the staight arm in terms of visual aesthetics. Have you watched the non tano arm? It’s in a very interesting position too. Does she do rippons too?

Yulia did a tano on a Lutz once and it was very similar looking.
https://youtu.be/soVGVnIu2Nk?t=4m31s

The non-tano arm indeed is the thing that throws me off there. With Yulia for instance the tano itself is somewhat similar(not quite) to this but the other arm is much lower. I don't know if I've ever seen a tano quite like this by anyone else.

Her rippons are much higher and they look normal and my brain at least instantly recognizes them. Like the second jump of this combo.

The non-tano arm on the other hand is almost at neck level and even horizontal. It's like its own sub-variation.

I guess that's what throws me off about it, the elbow's really not even close to being stuck against her body so it has this distinct trace. I guess naturally attention's drawn towards that rather than the tano arm itself... At least it seems to work that way for my brain.

...Which is a pretty interesting thing to achieve. A tano that draws attention away from the tano.

Sam L · Dec 28, 2017

How about a Ballet Arm 1st position like how the male ballet dancers do it for their tours en l'air like Nureyev here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv_UAkpNnKE&t=

The Rippon is essentially Ballet Arms in 5th position except in ballet you don't hold the hands together like you would in a Rippon.

Personally, I don't find Tanos as elegant as Rippons.

Makkachin · Dec 28, 2017

Sam L said:
How about a Ballet Arm 1st position like how the male ballet dancers do it for their tours en l'air like Nureyev here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv_UAkpNnKE&t=

The Rippon is essentially Ballet Arms in 5th position except in ballet you don't hold the hands together like you would in a Rippon.

Personally, I don't find Tanos as elegant as Rippons.

That would look beautiful. Having the arms lower might make the jump much more difficult, since you're no longer getting that full range of motion of swinging the arms through on the take off. The hands on hips/arm behind back/other lower arm positions shown in this thread are more impressive to me than Tano or Rippon for this reason. I know a biomechanics professor, I should ask her about this sometime!

Zora · Dec 28, 2017

I've noticed Sotskova has an arm variation on her landing position after one of her jumps (see here), does it also count?

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 28, 2017

Zora said:
I've noticed Sotskova has an arm variation on her landing position after one of her jumps (see here), does it also count?

If anything I would say it would count toward a difficult exit but I think it comes up short to meet the criteria for that. The first arm variation that comes to my mind that would count toward a difficult exit would be something like THIS which looks much more difficult and is more involved with the choreography and character of the performance.

It does give an interesting angle on things though. Skaters doing arm variations and incorporating choreographic arm movements into and out of the jumps. I don’t think we’ve seen this utilized enough. It would clearly demonstrate a mastery of that jump to have such choreographic content involved.

noskates · Dec 28, 2017

Been reading this thread off and on and just have to say - I'm SOOO over the arm above the head thing. It's being way overdone and sometimes the arm looks like a limp noodle. I realize it takes some real concentration to complete a jump with the arm over the head but it's just a gratuitous way to get points and doesn't always add to the choreography.

Procrastinator · Dec 28, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
If anything I would say it would count toward a difficult exit but I think it comes up short to meet the criteria for that. The first arm variation that comes to my mind that would count toward a difficult exit would be something like THIS which looks much more difficult and is more involved with the choreography and character of the performance.

It does give an interesting angle on things though. Skaters doing arm variations and incorporating choreographic arm movements into and out of the jumps. I don’t think we’ve seen this utilized enough. It would clearly demonstrate a mastery of that jump to have such choreographic content involved.

Yes, it would. My favorite example for this is Sotnikova. Look back in Sochi at her hands when she lands the flip and the loop. Shows great control, emphasizes the effortlessness of the jump, the superior extension/flow on landing, and matched the musical structure of both the SP and the FS. She's got +2 on the jump before you even account for difficult entrances and height/distance.

I frankly think the judges are not always going to count the arm over the head as a feature, especially not if it's sloppy or the jump has an error. I think they've been doing this in practice too, because otherwise Sotskova, Medvedeva, Zagitova would be getting even higher GOEs than they already do. Personally, to borrow from the jump GOE thread, I think the judges weight some GOE criteria more than others, namely, distance/height/flow, and then use others like delayed air position as a "bonus" plus factor. This is probably unconsciously done because the judges have internalized the criteria, know which are more meritorious/difficult, and "eyeball" GOE to an extent.

Maybe Eteri will stop with this trend once she realizes that putting it on every jump means that the judges start to ignore it as a feature, especially when the jump has an error on it.

charlotte14 · Dec 29, 2017

Procrastinator said:
Maybe Eteri will stop with this trend once she realizes that putting it on every jump means that the judges start to ignore it as a feature, especially when the jump has an error on it.

Nope they will not stop the hand over the head because it helps with their rotation.

GrandmaCC · Dec 29, 2017

Makkachin said:
I have nothing against Tano/Rippon on every jump but I personally would prefer to see other features, like difficult entry or doing something interesting with the landing edge, to add difficulty to/show superior control of the jump (therefore garnering higher GOE) rather than doing the same variation over and over (it's reminding me of when everyone was putting a Biellmann position in every spin, and the rules have thankfully changed to disallow this). A mixture of different arm variations besides Tano/Rippon like the ones in this thread within one program would be fun to see.

Same here, nothing wrong with an arm variation in my eyes, but I love seeing different entries and exits. Irina Slutskaya springs to mind with her double axel entry and the spiral out of it.

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 29, 2017

jf12 · Dec 29, 2017

arewhyaen said:
I doubt the following arm variations can be done, but it's very funny to imagine:

'The Helicopter' where the skater jumps with her arms out wide.

I've seen a video where Yuzuru do this on a double loop in practise for quad loop - Wish I could find it again.

lappo · Dec 29, 2017

jf12 said:
I've seen a video where Yuzuru do this on a double loop in practise for quad loop - Wish I could find it again.

This? https://68.media.tumblr.com/6a9249bdf498acad6d3fc3bbeb2205c4/tumblr_nc93ac981z1rqryl2o1_500.gif

jf12 · Dec 29, 2017

lappo said:
This? https://68.media.tumblr.com/6a9249bdf498acad6d3fc3bbeb2205c4/tumblr_nc93ac981z1rqryl2o1_500.gif

The one I saw was a loop and it was at the cricket club, but this one is amazing too! Maybe he does it as a warmup for all his quads??

champs · Dec 30, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
If anything I would say it would count toward a difficult exit but I think it comes up short to meet the criteria for that. The first arm variation that comes to my mind that would count toward a difficult exit would be something like THIS which looks much more difficult

I don't see how Tarakanova's arms pushed behind is much more difficult than Sotskova's arms pushed in front. Shifting the center of mass backward relative to the direction the you are skating in should require finer adjustment in balancing your body on a single blade than shifting it forward.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 30, 2017

champs said:
I don't see how Tarakanova's arms pushed behind is much more difficult than Sotskova's arms pushed in front. Shifting the center of mass backward relative to the direction the you are skating in should require finer adjustment in balancing your body on a single blade than shifting it forward.

Let's be honest - the hands behind or in front are after some semblance of control has been established on the landings. Anyone can land a jump and put their hand behind their back or in front of them - just like anyone can land a jump and execute a spiral of the landing is solid enough.

The reality with several exit transitions is that they're an added move/position thrown-in that isn't really a "transition movement" from the landing position of the jump, and usually the transition is treated and executed as an afterthought.

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 30, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Let's be honest - the hands behind or in front are after some semblance of control has been established on the landings. Anyone can land a jump and put their hand behind their back or in front of them - just like anyone can land a jump and execute a spiral of the landing is solid enough.

This is kind of an odd statement. If you watch the jump she clearly extends her arms almost immediately upon landing and most importantly while she’s on the initial landing edge that she holds before adding turns. It clearly shows a certain mastery and trust in her jumps to execute it. Some ladies struggle to land all of their jumps let alone the ability to add any choreography so quickly out. Are you saying that this shouldn’t count as a feature of the jump because it’s easy to do and anyone could do it but that they just chose not to. If so I strongly disagree! I’m not sure I really follow the intent and dismissiveness of your post.

Watch the SloMo HERE

You can see how fluid the movement is and she actually uses it to accelerate out into more turns. How is this not a transition but instead as you say an afterthought?

I’d put a HUGE check after this bullet!!
5) good extension on landing / creative exit

schizoanalyst · Dec 30, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
This is kind of an odd statement. If you watch the jump she clearly extends her arms almost immediately upon landing and most importantly while she’s on the initial landing edge that she holds before adding turns. It clearly shows a certain mastery and trust in her jumps to execute it. Some ladies struggle to land all of their jumps let alone the ability to add any choreography so quickly out. Are you saying that this shouldn’t count as a feature of the jump because it’s easy to do and anyone could do it but that they just chose not to. If so I strongly disagree! I’m not sure I really follow the intent and dismissiveness of your post.

Watch the SloMo HERE

You can see how fluid the movement is and she actually uses it to accelerate out into more turns. How is this not a transition but instead as you say an afterthought?

If Tarakanova pulled her arms into that position on impact rather than before she stabilized her edge (and balance) I might agree because she'd have to start the arm motion before the landing, but the motion is already completed basically. It’s a little more difficult - but not so much I think. I’ll note I’m a casual skater who can just throw around a few solo triples (I was never formally trained, but my mom coaches and I kinda got dragged along despite my protestations) and I could easily do something like that with a minimal amount of practice fairly consistently (maybe I'll go to the rink and try to report back if it's particularly hard but I don't think so). But I don’t know if I could do that in a competition, and I’ve never competed in skating to be fair, only because I could see someone easily missing the timing, especially if you were a bit nervous and tight, and pulling into the motion *before* the edge stabilized and the motion was completed - that could force a pop or a loss of balance on the exist of the jump. In that sense, it’s more of a competitive feat but not a strong technical one. I’m not sure how or if judges should reward such a thing beyond noting it as an component feature in the transition mark.

Arm Variations Other Than Tano and Rippon

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Shayuki

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Shayuki

Sam L

Makkachin

Zora

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

noskates

Procrastinator

charlotte14

GrandmaCC

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

jf12

lappo

jf12

champs

CanadianSkaterGuy

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

schizoanalyst

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