Arm Variations Other Than Tano and Rippon

I’m at a loss here. A jump combo counts because the skater maintains the edge they land on and then take off of without changing it. Why are transitions considered any different? Since when are skaters required to land directly into their transitions without first securing a landing edge. I’ve never heard such talk before this and most transitions I’m aware of will take place after the landing edge is secured and that’s actually an equally nice quality.

Can someone link an arm variation that is more immediate than this? How about an ISU explanation supporting this argument?

I’d put a HUGE check after this bullet!!
5) good extension on landing / creative exit

Sam-Skwantch said:

I’m at a loss here. A jump combo counts because the skater maintains the edge they land on and then take off of without changing it. Why are transitions considered any different? Since when are skaters required to land directly into their transitions without first securing a landing edge. I’ve never heard such talk before this and most transitions I’m aware of will take place after the landing edge is secured and that’s actually an equally nice quality.

Can someone link an arm variation that is more immediate than this?

Click to expand...

I don't think there is much more she could do - in fact if she started the motion before stabilizing it would probably cause a hideous jump. I guess I didn't state my point really - my general point was that arm variations generically aren't as difficult as people imagine to perform I think (aside from the full extension variations like Trusova or Zagitva do or Rippon did - not that arm hanging on the head thing Sotskova is trying to pass off). I'm fine with Tarakanova's being counted as a difficult exit because it's certainly as difficult as anything someone else is doing, likely more so.

schizoanalyst said:

I guess I didn't state my point really - my general point was that arm variations generically aren't as difficult as people imagine to perform I think (aside from the full extension variations like Trusova or Zagitva do or Rippon did - not that arm hanging on the head thing Sotskova is trying to pass off).

Click to expand...

Fair enough but not every bullet addresses difficulty and I’m not sure that they should. Do we believe that matching a jump to the musical structure is any more difficult than an arm variation and yet we don’t debate it’s value. It enhances the performance. The goal seems to be to achieve a variation with the Tanos. Tarakanova is a great example for this topic though. In the SP she does no arm variation on the 3-3 and then rippons the Lutz and does do a tano on the axel. In the FS she Rippons the the 3-3 and doesn’t tano the axels and instead tags them onto the toe loops. She utilizes the variation but spreads it around and executes some jumps in the different programs completely different.

schizoanalyst said:

I’ll note I’m a casual skater who can just throw around a few solo triples (I was never formally trained, but my mom coaches and I kinda got dragged along despite my protestations) and I could easily do something like that with a minimal amount of practice fairly consistently (maybe I'll go to the rink and try to report back if it's particularly hard but I don't think so).

Click to expand...

Please do. I'm curious what your experience would be.

There's Nancy Kerrigan with the hands at ears:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdSoHFGnPxz/

The Rippon has been done for a very long time, since at least the late 1960's if not before. It helps keep the core square and upright. The arms are close to the axis of rotation so it doesn't really slow it down (although I think crossing the arms at the wrists rather than having the hands together would actually be the fastest). However, it's the person who popularized a skill or variation who tends to get it named after them, not necessarily the first one who does it.

What I'd like to see is someone doing a jump with their hands straight (fingers extended pointing down) on the top of their head, forming sort of a heart shape with their arms. This is always the stereotypical position random public session people take when they pretend they're figure skating -- spin around with their arms in that position, even though I haven't seen any figure skaters do that arm position. Don't know why.

Vanshilar said:

What I'd like to see is someone doing a jump with their hands straight (fingers extended pointing down) on the top of their head, forming sort of a heart shape with their arms. This is always the stereotypical position random public session people take when they pretend they're figure skating -- spin around with their arms in that position, even though I haven't seen any figure skaters do that arm position. Don't know why.

Click to expand...

They're probably trying to do a ballet 5th position but have never actually studied ballet and learned how to do it correctly.

This one: https://youtu.be/FdWYBsDZG0k?t=5m10s

schizoanalyst said:

I’ll note I’m a casual skater who can just throw around a few solo triples (I was never formally trained, but my mom coaches and I kinda got dragged along despite my protestations) and I could easily do something like that with a minimal amount of practice fairly consistently (maybe I'll go to the rink and try to report back if it's particularly hard but I don't think so).

Click to expand...

gkelly said:

Please do. I'm curious what your experience would be.

Click to expand...

Ask and you shall receive

I’m reporting back after playing around for a few days. Just to recap a bit about me I’m a young guy. I was never trained at an elite level or pursued skating competitively, but I do have a fair amount of natural talent (I actually *did* want to compete and try to go competitively but that’s a different story). I learned from my mom, a coach, and being at the rink most of my life. I can do all the triples up through lutz and I’ve always had pretty good technique. So, generally, my background is I’m hardily an elite skater but I have some ability and talent - thus I reason if I can pull off these arm variations off - elite skaters should have little problem.

My general conclusion:

1 - Arm variations on doubles don’t add much of any difficulty.

2 - Full extension arm variations are, predictably, the most difficult. And again predictably, the Rippon is much more difficult than the Tano. Your center of gravity shifts so the jump feels quite unnatural if you are trained in the standard way. It easily threw off my timing and forced me to generally pop because I pulled in or out at different times than usual. I was able to get a tano on all but a loop, but no success with a Rippon. It makes a substantial difference if you don’t fully extend your elbow. The Tano with an elbow break (like Medvedeva does on her flip-toe) is substantial easier than a full extension. The more you break your elbow, the easier it is. I’m impressed by Zagitova that she is able to do both a standard and Rippon lutz - that requires a lot of control. If you did the jump *always* as a full extension variety it would be somewhat more difficult, but then it would be just your technique. If you can do both, I regard that as quite impressive. Unfortunately, COP is not designed to award this as 6.0 might as there is no mark you can use to quantify this as impressive (similarly true of rotating both ways in spins!).

3 - Very slight arm extensions where your shoulder's don't rise much don’t add much difficulty at all. I was able to do the Sotskova laying the arm on your head thing after a couple tries consistently. It doesn’t shift the body adjust the position or timing all that much. Throwing your arm up slightly isn’t hard. I think this should be regarded as choreography more than a difficult variation.

4 - I tried the Tarakanova, whatever you wanna call - this. I did not attempt it on a triple loop as she did, because that was always my weakest jump and I’m somewhat out of practice (I went with salchow). I managed to pull it off, but the timing is more precise. You need to lean on the landing like she does in the video because then as you raise your center you are following the flow of your jump and it’s not that hard to do the variation. If you land it flat back, it’s very easy to force a step out as your balance goes. How difficult this is basically comes down to what your landing posture looks like.

5 - I tried various arm variations that I’ve seen from Russian girls, aside from full extensions I was able to get most of them that didn’t require more flexibility than I have. I do want to note one thing though. The most important thing is getting the timing right on placing your arms and body - and it requires more precision than the standard jumps by a fair margin (I underestimated this previously in the thread). In this sense, it’s a significant competitive feat. I was goofing around the rink laughing with my mom most of the time. If I was tight and nervous, I could see myself raising my shoulder too quickly and having a disaster. I suspect this is why more people don’t go for the arm variation gimme-points even though many probably could - under the pressure and tight they probably wouldn’t pull if off. This poses a bit of a challenge though. In principle, the arm variations aren’t terribly difficult but under competitive pressure, if you are tight, you have less room to correct yourself as opposed to a standard jump - so I am very impressed with these young Russians competitive ability! I’m unclear how such thing should be rewarded though. For GOE purposes, I think it’s fine to call some of these difficult variations since they do make the jump more difficult - just not substantially so. I just don’t think an otherwise +0.7 jump deserves another +0.7 or +1.4. Also, like I said, your landing posture and how much you extend your arm make a big difference in difficulty and COP can’t handle this currently. Finer GOE categories might help I guess, 6.0 could’ve done it better.

Awesome investigation. Really, really interesting to hear to hear the results, especially how much more difficult the ripon was than any of the singe arm variations. Makes sense that the problem would be controlling it though.

Shayuki said:

This made me curious for some unbiased opinions - Do you think that a tano performed like this looks bad? I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't even notice it was a tano at first. It really doesn't pop out like they tend to. Does this look good or not?

Click to expand...

I do not think it has the difficulty of a tano stretched out. However, that is different than looking good... I personally don't like it, however it is very unnoticeable, so I do not think it hinders the look of the overall jump. I would say it is not a good *tano*, though.

EDIT: I think Isadora's first jump combo here has a lovely tano.

schizoanalyst said:

Whole Post

Click to expand...

It is very nice analysis but we should keep mind the GOE bullet for arm variation isn't based on difficulty.


3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation


Neither is the one regarding exits which I swear at one point did.


5) good extension on landing / creative exit

There isn't anything in the description of jump GOE's intention being to reward difficulty either but instead positive aspects.

These guidelines are tools to be used together with the minus GOE charts. The final GOE of a performed element is based on the combination of both positive and negative aspects. It is important that the final GOE of an element reflects the positive aspects, as well as any possible reductions that may apply.
The final GOE of an element is calculated considering first the positive aspects of the element that result in a starting GOE for the evaluation. Following that a Judge reduces the GOE according to the guidelines of possible errors and the result is the final GOE of the element.
To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It is at the discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:
FOR + 1 : 2 bullets FOR + 2 : 4 bullets FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets

Click to expand...

Impressive report. Everyone I know who could or even can do triples can only do so after very rigorous training. Sounds like you could have been rather successful.

Sam-Skwantch said:

It is very nice analysis but we should keep mind the GOE bullet for arm variation isn't based on difficulty.

Click to expand...

That's fair. I guess my assumption - though perhaps incorrect - was that this was being rewarding because it's more difficult to achieve so it makes sense to talk how much. What Sotskova vs Zagitova vs Medvedeva does have very different challenges and I think it's worth rewarding this, but I'll concede you are correct according to the handbook. Now I can add another thing I dislike about COP to my list though! I guess my opinion is I don't think we should just award variations for the sake of it, unless they otherwise enhance the choreography or interpretation by accenting something, but I'll concede the rulebook doesn't say literally what I think it intends. Again, I do want to emphasize the precision required of any variation and how much I admire the competitive nerve of these women - perhaps that itself is worth rewarding.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Impressive report. Everyone I know who could or even can do triples can only do so after very rigorous training. Sounds like you could have been rather successful.

Click to expand...

Ha, thanks. I briefly tried competitive skateboarding vert instead but I had very little success lol.

schizoanalyst said:

That's fair. I guess my assumption - though perhaps incorrect - was that this was being rewarding because it's more difficult to achieve so it makes sense to talk how much. What Sotskova vs Zagitova vs Medvedeva does have very different challenges and I think it's worth rewarding this, but I'll concede you are correct according to the handbook. Now I can add another thing I dislike about COP to my list though! I guess my opinion is I don't think we should just award variations for the sake of it, unless they otherwise enhance the choreography or interpretation by accenting something, but I'll concede the rulebook doesn't say literally what I think it intends. Again, I do want to emphasize the precision required of any variation and how much I admire the competitive nerve of these women - perhaps that itself is worth rewardingl

Click to expand...

Hmm...well I'm not partial either way in regards to difficulty but I think the worst aspect of CoP is the way StSeqs focus solely on difficulty and quantity for scoring. What about purpose and expression?? There is very little creativity left and everyone does it the same and it's about as exciting as watching someone spend the extra time to get every coin on Mario Bros level.

I'm in the minority I know but I appreciate Masha's jumps Tano and all. I'd give Tarakanova all the GOE though. She does a true variety by not doing the same every jump and tanos in the SP that she doesn't in the FS. That's variety

OT: I'm obsessed with the Vans Park series
Padro for the Olympics!!!

synteis said:

Awesome investigation. Really, really interesting to hear to hear the results, especially how much more difficult the ripon was than any of the singe arm variations. Makes sense that the problem would be controlling it though.

Click to expand...

I agree...regardless of where we stand on the Tano issue it's a really fascinating read. We really should appreciate the effort to not only attempt the variations but to then come back and report on it.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Hmm...well I'm not partial either way in regards to difficulty but I think the worst aspect of CoP is the way StSeqs focus solely on difficulty and quantity for scoring. What about purpose and expression?? There is very little creativity left and everyone does it the same and it's about as exciting as watching someone spend the extra time to get every coin on Mario Bros level.

I'm in the minority I know but I appreciate Masha's jumps Tano and all. I'd give Tarakanova all the GOE though. She does a true variety by not doing the same every jump and tanos in the SP that she doesn't in the FS. That's variety

OT: I'm obsessed with the Vans Park series
Padro for the Olympics!!!

Click to expand...

It’s mostly the totally arbitrary requirements and restrictions on the steps/spin/jumps that will kill this sport more than giving too many points to fallen quads or whatever people think is responsible for boring, identical programs now-a-days so I agree there!

On Sotskova, I just made the point it doesn’t add any difficultly really. Aesthetically, I don’t care for Sotskova’s tano’s like many - but I’ve said in a different topic elsewhere we average scores because people value different things.

Again, on Tarakanova - I was just commenting on difficultly. Her jumps have other nice qualities (I haven’t thought much about what GOE she deserves) and the variation does add a bit of a challenge. I’m still a bit in the old school thought that I think sometimes a held edge is nicer than a lot of variations - but I do appreciate her creativity and variety. One of the beauties of 6.0 you could be surprised or startled sometimes - this is something that Tarakanova is at least trying to accomplish.

Edit: Like, at least I wasn't expecting this blade grab - https://youtu.be/URpc_sDaw_k?t=1m59s !

Sam-Skwantch said:

I agree...regardless of where we stand on the Tano issue it's a really fascinating read. We really should appreciate the effort to not only attempt the variations but to then come back and report on it.

Click to expand...

I have to agree that the surprise element was lovely and that Tarakanova's blade grab did recreate some of that. I love skaters that work to create magic moments even when it doesn't affect the BV, GOE or PCS much and I do love experimentation.

I'm in the camp that wouldn't mind a super restricted SP with lots of checked boxes as long as they were allowed much more freedom in the LP (and were rewarded for the variation) precisely because I'd like to see some increased experimentation, especially amongst the ladies. That is one of my favourite things about the Russian skaters, they seem to be encouraged to experiment and while I sometimes dislike the results or elements of that experimentation, I always appreciate the drive behind it and I think it's part of what's made their junior ladies so special this year.

Some other old geezer is going to have to help me out here. Not exactly an air position... but dang was it cool.

An old-time Soviet pair used to do throw 2A, and when she landed, they were grasping each other's arms - right to right, with hands midway between wrists and elbows.

That move had a cool original "snap" to it, and I liked it a lot.

Of course, it was in 6.0 era, so I have no idea if the judges liked it as much as I did. I seem to recall they were the 2nd or 3rd Soviet pair. And in those days that meant podium finishers.

schizoanalyst said:

It’s mostly the totally arbitrary requirements and restrictions on the steps/spin/jumps that will kill this sport more than giving too many points to fallen quads or whatever people think is responsible for boring, identical programs now-a-days so I agree there!

On Sotskova, I just made the point it doesn’t add any difficultly really. Aesthetically, I don’t care for Sotskova’s tano’s like many - but I’ve said in a different topic elsewhere we average scores because people value different things.

Again, on Tarakanova - I was just commenting on difficultly. Her jumps have other nice qualities (I haven’t thought much about what GOE she deserves) and the variation does add a bit of a challenge. I’m still a bit in the old school thought that I think sometimes a held edge is nicer than a lot of variations - but I do appreciate her creativity and variety. One of the beauties of 6.0 you could be surprised or startled sometimes - this is something that Tarakanova is at least trying to accomplish.

Edit: Like, at least I wasn't expecting this blade grab - https://youtu.be/URpc_sDaw_k?t=1m59s !

Click to expand...

I appreciate the creativity but there is just something so forced about the way Tarakanova executes some of her transitions and features. Like it's tacking on a tricky movement on the end of the jump for the sake of gaining an extra GOE bullet, instead of be a beautiful feature. I wish she would take the time to actually hold the landing edge with her arms behind her back or the spread eagle after the 2A or the spiral (which let's be honest - she barely holds). There's something a bit wild and frenetic about her skating, like "I have to get through this, and do this variation and show this exit transition, and then get to the next thing". I suppose it's how Eteri's choreo tends to be, packing things in, but it compromises the effortlessness of the performance and she would score higher if she literally took a split second more completing some of her movements like exit transitions.

Also thanks for your analysis.

I tried some of these arm variations as well in my last session (albeit I was not nearly audacious enough, nor skilled enough lol, to attempt them on triples where I definitely need to pull my arms in!). On doubles I found a tano fairly easy - I actually find it easier to pretend like I'm touching the ceiling and fully extend the arm rather than to have the arm bent which creates a weird swinging sensation that threw my axis/equilibrium off. A rippon is much trickier but I found it easy on straight line entry jumps like my toe jumps (my lutz is a Slutskaya/Chen type instead of towards the corner on a curve). Oddly enough I found more success with it on my double flip/lutz than a double toe. I didn't get the sensation of more height though.

I also tried one arm in front and one arm behind my back. It's relatively easy, but if you mess up a landing you risk hurting your shoulder and after doing 4 or 5 of those I was feeling tension in my arm that was behind my back (hah, perhaps it's also because I don't have the greatest flexibility) - I can't imagine someone being able to execute it on a triple although some pairs skaters (eg Sui) cross their arms like this on throws and twists. This variation was also not as obvious to those watching (obviously a hand variation around the torso is not as obvious as arm or arms above the head).

I tried 2-3 attempts of the both arms behind your back and you're right, you need to lean a bit on the landing which is a bit unnatural. It just felt really awkward and forced. It's hard to make something like that look seamless/effortless. Obviously it was easier to do when I had controlled my landing for a bit and then leaned forward and clasped my hands behind, but to do it immediately on the landing was just not pleasant (to do, or to watch) lol.

These were fun to try out though! Everyone should try them on their next session.

schizoanalyst said:

Edit: Like, at least I wasn't expecting this blade grab - https://youtu.be/URpc_sDaw_k?t=1m59s !

Click to expand...

Wish she would hold it longer though, like this. She's one of Eteri's newly upgraded quad-jumping girls right? Really like her energy. She brings the drama! I think I saw one of her programs where she fell on the opening quad, or maybe it was another skater. The only one I remember is Kostornaia. That one is a real revelation, and I can't wait to watch her for years to come (or maybe like the next 1.5 years if the competition in Russia continues to trend even higher).