Does ISU Qualification System Need Reform? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Does ISU Qualification System Need Reform?

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I’d love to see everyone who qualifies to the GPF be allowed to compete in the WC every season. No federation tricks though like substituting other skaters to circumvent the process.

Nope, because again, big countries control this process, like how Katia and Harley got screwed over this season, where multiple pairs they beat at both JWC and WC got gifted GP spots by virtue of being bigger country skaters, and they were locked out.
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
I am not in favor of increasing the cap of skaters. The Olympics is meant to be a competition where the world comes together in friendly competition. To take spots away from other countries and give them to stronger federations seems to go against what the Olympics are meant to be. The Olympics are for everyone- not just Russia/USA/Canada/Japan with some obligatory spots handed out to other countries. What makes the Olympic Games so great is the diversity.


It is up to each country how they choose their team. If you happen to be from a country with a strong federation it is a double edged sword. On one hand the competition is much harsher but on the other hand you have access to better training and facilities.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
As to the Worlds, I am for open individual qualifications. I am fine if it's dominated by four countries and nothing else. I am not really interested in seeing skaters that qualified based on international equality, rather than real skills.
ISU should maintain true rankings based on GP, previous Worlds, Europeans, 4 Continents and other tournaments, including challengers. Those rankings should be the primary qualification criteria. If the top 20 includes mostly Russians, some Japanese, one American and two Canadians, I am OK with it. Other nations must step up, as nothing should be guaranteed for free.
The system should copy that of tennis.
As to the Olympics, I understand they have three participants per country, it's not only about figure skating, so the rules are rules.
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
As to the Olympics, I understand they have three participants per country, it's not only about figure skating, so the rules are rules.

That's not actually the case.

In ski jumping, Nordic combined, cross country skiing, biathlon, and Alpine skiing there are up to 4 participants per country at the Olympics.

Those are just the sports I follow, though. I don't know what the quotas are for other sports.

But, the point is that the IOC does not have a universal quota of 3 participants per country across all the sports at the Olympics.

CaroLiza_fan
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
As to the Worlds, I am for open individual qualifications. I am fine if it's dominated by four countries and nothing else.

Yes, but it's not just about what you're fine with as a fan.

The only way the sport can grow and sustain itself around the world is to allow skaters (and officials) from other countries to have plenty of opportunities to compete in the same time and place as the best in the world.

Maybe if there were a dozen or more large (24+ skaters) events held around the world that would attract the top skaters and also allow the up and comers and the weaker skaters who happen to be the best in a new federation to compete against each other, something like a super-Grand Prix, with Worlds as a super-GPF taking the top 30 from the super circuit, that would be fair. Otherwise there's no way for federations not already in the top few to grow their programs equitably.
 

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
You can't make it about scores. You can't. Because all that will mean will be even more scoring crazy than we already get. And who does that benefit? The big countries, of course. Why? Because the big countries control the GP and the championship events.

I am firmly, firmly against any proposal that increases big country spots. That form of proposal only ever hurts the little countries in spite of the protestations of "allowances" and such.

Oh, so now it's all about the little countries? Don't you think that skaters from other countries suffer too?
Just because Katia and Harley didn't get a GP spot doesn't mean that they won't go on to have a successful career. Then will you say they were screwed--they had a great career but that one year they didn't get a GP spot. The horrors! They're still Olympians, they're still champions.

But also. It's a given that the littler countries have a lower chance of having more high-ranked skaters than there are spots. That's why they're the littler countries. When you look at Russia, who has so many talented ladies that could make the Olympics in a heartbeat if they were born in a different place, why is it okay to say "well that's okay, they're from a big country so eh, they deserve it"? Let's take Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, a former world champion (!!) who won't be going to the Olympics. That simply doesn't happen in the smaller countries. Kailani's been great this season, but when there's so few skaters that even have the minimums, she could have bombed nationals and still have been chosen. Not everyone gets that sort of a second chance.
So no, it's not that the big countries are killing all hopes of success for the little ones.
And anyway, the success of Katia and Harley will probably inspire future skaters in Australia! :biggrin:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
But also. It's a given that the littler countries have a lower chance of having more high-ranked skaters than there are spots. That's why they're the littler countries. When you look at Russia, who has so many talented ladies that could make the Olympics in a heartbeat if they were born in a different place,

Well, if they were born in a different place, maybe they
*would never have started skating at all
*would have skated with less ice time, weaker coaching, less domestic competition to push them to excel at lower levels, less support from a federation with fewer resources, etc.

If the latter, they might either never gotten to an elite skill level at all, or gotten to a lower elite level and missed out on qualifying for the big events because of no Grand Prix invitations, fewer opportunities to compete at Senior B events if their federation is poor and they're not from Europe, etc.

It takes more than just the skater's innate talent and personal drive to make an elite skater.
 

Mawwerg

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
I prefer something like it for Worlds singles

15 spots to TOP 15 Season Bests
20 spots to skaters represented another countries than skaters from TOP 15(1 spot per country in Season Bests order)
9 spots to three zonal qualifying tournaments(Europe+Africa, Asia+Oceania, North America+South and Central America) 3 to each
4 wild cards from ISU.

For pairs and dance some numbers maybe should be reduced.
 

NanaPat

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Canada
Thank you for the explanation.

Yeah, I can see the problems that would arise under this proposal if one country got a podium clean sweep. Six slots for one country certainly would not go down well with everybody else.

No, given that this scenario would be possible, I think guaranteeing additional slots for all podium finishers is going a bit too far. Just having a slot for the winner would be sufficient.

CaroLiza_fan

But under the old system, it was a maximum of 5. Only two were earned by adding up placements, any additional were earned by medalists, and were "personal" spots instead of country ones. If we were under that system now, Canada would have 4 ladies spots! Imagine the gnashing of teeth over that!

While the theoretical maximum was 5 under the old system, it was very rare (maybe never actually happened). It would require both a medal sweep AND no retirements/injuries among the medalists.

When researching for an earlier thread, I did find cases where a country had 4 actual entries in worlds. I can't remember the details any more, but I think it was Canada. The topic of that thread was whether various countries had ever sent a "full" team (3 entries in each of 4 disciplines) to worlds (or maybe Olympics, but I think it was Worlds). When looking at previous teams I found the 4-entry-from-one-country examples.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
But under the old system, it was a maximum of 5. Only two were earned by adding up placements, any additional were earned by medalists, and were "personal" spots instead of country ones. If we were under that system now, Canada would have 4 ladies spots! Imagine the gnashing of teeth over that!

While the theoretical maximum was 5 under the old system, it was very rare (maybe never actually happened). It would require both a medal sweep AND no retirements/injuries among the medalists.

I'm not sure that's how it worked, but I wasn't following skating closely before the 1990s (except for 1975 and 76 when I was a teenager, and there was not much on TV so my main source of info was Skating magazine).

My understanding of how things worked in 1988-89 was that there were a maximum of 3 spots, you needed to have a medalist the previous year to earn 3 slots (top 10 for 2 slots -- and only the highest finisher counted), and that the third spot was specific to the skater who earned it.

I could be wrong though.



When researching for an earlier thread, I did find cases where a country had 4 actual entries in worlds. I can't remember the details any more, but I think it was Canada. The topic of that thread was whether various countries had ever sent a "full" team (3 entries in each of 4 disciplines) to worlds (or maybe Olympics, but I think it was Worlds). When looking at previous teams I found the 4-entry-from-one-country examples.

Do you remember what you found?

I know there were some years with 4 entries from the same country way back in the 1950s or 60s or earlier, but I have no idea how the slots were determined in those days.

There were 4 German ladies at 1991 Worlds, but that was a one-time exception: East Germany and West Germany had each earned 2 slots, and then the countries merged.
 

NanaPat

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Canada
Do you remember what you found?

I know there were some years with 4 entries from the same country way back in the 1950s or 60s or earlier, but I have no idea how the slots were determined in those days.

There were 4 German ladies at 1991 Worlds, but that was a one-time exception: East Germany and West Germany had each earned 2 slots, and then the countries merged.

I couldn't remember, but I found something: 1972 USA had 4 pairs participating in Worlds!

I remember that I was trying to find out when Canada had 3 women, and someone (I'm thinking Mathman, but could be way wrong on that) suggested that I go back and look at the old days when a medalist gave you 3 slots, find a Canadian ladies medalist, and then look at the following year's participants. That did lead me to years Canada had 3 ladies at Worlds: 1965, 1966, and 1973. I just happened to notice the 4 US pairs in 1972.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
You can't make it about scores. You can't.

And anyway, the success of Katia and Harley will probably inspire future skaters in Australia! :biggrin:

Under my system based on Seasons Bests and rewarding more recent perfromances, Katia and Harley would already have earned 2 spots for Australia at the forthcoming World Championships.

Pairs scores are slightly higher than Ladies and the qualifying mark might be slightly higher, but their score of 190.31 at Nebelhorn would be plenty high enough under what I'm proposing, plus they wouldn't have to get in the Top 10 to get Australia 2 spots for next year, something which they may or may not do - there's probably 12 or 13 other pairs out there that could score 190+ at the Worlds.
 

asp11

Just a dedicated fan - not a skater
On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
I can see both sides of the argument.

I totally agree that it is unfair to have qualification for the Olympics being based on just two competitions - one Major Championship, and one Senior B. As schizoanalyst says, your form can change from one day to the next. So, if you happen to have an off-day on the day of the qualifying competition, well, that's it over.

And what makes this even unfairer is that you are not necessarily qualifying a spot for yourself - you are qualifying a spot for your country. So, even if you have a good showing in the qualifying, it doesn't necessarily mean you will go to the main event.

No, at the very least, qualifying should be based on what has happened in the whole of the current season (i.e. the ISU Season's World Rankings). Even better would be basing it on the whole of the previous 12 months, or even the whole of the past 2 seasons (i.e. the ISU World Standings).

But, the whole way the Olympics is set up is wrong anyway. It should be the same rules as for the other Majors, specifically Worlds. Where this is the underlying principle:
As long as the skater meets the Minimum TES, every country automatically has one slot.

That's great. I have no problem with that. And I have no problem with the way additional slots are earned either (although, I would add a clause stating that the reigning champion is automatically qualified in addition to their country's quota).

For me, the problem is the way the Minimum TES is being set. Yes, as the top skaters push the scores higher and higher, you need to raise the qualifying requirement to keep the competition relatively fair. And it is working well in Singles skating. But, it is really stifling things in Pairs and Dance. Particularly Pairs.

Put simply, the Minimum TES is being set too high in Pairs and Dance. And, as a result, the number of entries to the ISU competitions is getting smaller and smaller. And, with the Olympics also having the citizenship requirement, it is getting critical.

For many people, the Olympics is the only time they will see figure skating. And, many children get inspired by what they see at the Olympics. But, most TV broadcasters simply can't fit everything in. So, they only show what appears to be popular. And if they see a competition with only a small number of entries, they are more likely to drop it than a competition with a lot of entries (even though they are likely to not even show the whole competition). So, if the children don't see the Pairs competition, they will not get inspired to take up Pairs skating. And so a vicious circle develops.

I know that there is a set number of slots at the Olympics, and that the number of slots is smaller for Pairs. But, that is because so few are meeting the requirements! If the requirements were lower and more partnerships were meeting them, I would expect the number of slots would be increased (or, at least, I would hope they were!)

Yes, having more people meeting the requirements would make competitions longer. And at the Olympics, time is at a premium. But, in figure skating, longer competitions could easily be accomodated because there is only one competition each day. It would just be the practice sessions held on the Main Rink that would need to be re-arranged. And if needs-be, these could be accomodated by getting rid of the Olympic Team Event and spreading the rest of the figure skating out a bit more... :devil:

Those are my thoughts. The thoughts of somebody who prefers Worlds to the Olympics.

CaroLiza_fan

Interesting thoughts...
 
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