Ladies Jumping Passes - GOE

Shayuki said:

Agreed, I don't think that the prettiest tano even is with arm straight ... That seems to be awfully restrictive. It just needs to look good in my opinion and that's up to each individual, really.

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I think the argument is more that a bent arm doesn't really add anything to the difficulty to the jump. And definitely takes away from the aesthetic appeal of the jump.

chopinskate said:

I think the argument is more that a bent arm doesn't really add anything to the difficulty to the jump. And definitely takes away from the aesthetic appeal of the jump.

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It doesn't absolutely take away and it might add something to difficulty, too. It depends on the specific tano. "Bent arm tano" comes in so many varieties. There are very ugly ones and very beautiful ones. And of course, ones with varying difficulty.

Well, I would remove "definitely" from my post. I would assign great aesthetic value to something like the arm position that Sasha Cohen used in her final forward scratch spin in her Swan Lake FS. But my main issue is an arm that flops. An arm that can remain in whatever position the skater chooses, the skater *commits to it*, and makes it look like a good port-de-bras would be appealing. I don't know if I would assign all of them a good amount of difficulty.

I would love to see a headless jump. I don't know if it can be done, though.

chopinskate said:

I think the argument is more that a bent arm doesn't really add anything to the difficulty to the jump. And definitely takes away from the aesthetic appeal of the jump.

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Not every bullet addresses difficulty and I disagree on your last point. I do think a bent arm variation is more appealing than a jump without. For a sport that claims to be artistic it’s fans sure struggle with the concept of encouraging creativity and individuality. Yulia did one tano that I can recall and it was on a Lutz and it had a bent arm but offered a vary nice variation from the rest of her jumps.


https://youtu.be/vd-0kLE96W0?t=4m44s

FSGMT said:

I would love to see a headless jump. I don't know if it can be done, though.

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Maybe a single or easy double by a skater who is capable of triples or quads.

It seems to me that one arm overhead is the easiest possible recognizable air variation. It does add some difficulty, but not much, and depending on the position (or the frequency of use throughout the same program) it might have a negative effect aesthetically.

So I figure judges will reward it if it also looks well done or adds to the variety or thematic choreography of the program, or if the jump is otherwise borderline between two GOEs they can use it as a positive tiebreaker.

Or, for example, if a skater switches arms between two jump in a combination, that would be clearly more difficult.

Then there are other variations that add more difficulty and should be rewarded for that reason even if the aesthetics are below average.

And a few air position variations that are so difficult that, e.g., they make a single jump more difficult to perform than a vanilla double, especially axels. And therefore they're not worth doing unless they make such a WOW statement that the skater is willing to take the risk of the difficult element outside of the designated jump slots with only PCS (and maybe choreo sequence GOE) reward, but not worth wasting a jump slot on the low-base-value easy jump even if it would earn +3 GOE.

I wish there were some way to encourage elite skaters to incorporate these extreme variations on single and maybe double jumps. The choreo sequence is one place to try them under the current rules, or as extra elements after all the other jumps are completed (they'd probably get called and asterisked, no harm no foul on the TES).

But before the choreo sequence was introduced, I always wished there was some kind of low-revolution jump sequence element with features and levels to be called by the tech panel.

Or what if the well-balanced program rules allowed or required a solo single jump variation as an element type?

Would it be possible to allow the tech panel to treat moves like split-flip or tuck axel (or headless double toe??) as a transitional move in junior and senior freeskates and not call the element? Could get tricky sometimes to determine what was a popped double axel attempt vs. a poor/failed attempt at an enhanced single.

Making the +GOEs worth more so that, e.g., a single axel with +3 GOE would be worth more than a double with 0 GOE, might encourage more skaters to include them. But at lower levels you might see more skaters winning by perfecting easier jumps rather than risking the harder ones, beyond the minimum required in the short program.

Which wouldn't be all bad -- it's great to see top quality -- but ideally the best skaters would be doing some of the most difficult content and also some easier elements with higher quality and/or more creative and difficult variations. The trick is figuring out what kind of rule changes would best encourage skaters to push the envelope in all of these directions and reward them appropriately.

I corrected myself in a post after that one, actually.

Not every bullet addresses difficulty and I disagree on your last point. I do think a bent arm variation is more appealing than a jump without. For a sport that claims to be artistic it’s fans sure struggle with the concept of encouraging creativity and individuality. Yulia did one tano that I can recall and it was on a Lutz and it had a bent arm but offered a vary nice variation from the rest of her jumps.

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And creativity and individuality are fine, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be open to criticism. Go ahead and create a new variation for all I care, but if it's ugly then you'll get called out.

gkelly said:

Note the edge call on Gorodnitsky's lutz, which accounts for most of the negative GOE. The youtube camera angle is probably more ambiguous about that than the tech panel angle.

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Of course with the edge and underrotation calls I would lower it down to a -3