Difficult jump entries?

The CoP is set up to reward difficult and unusual entries into jumps. In the Campbell's event both Shizuka Arakawa and Sasha Cohen tried an Ina Bauer into a triple jump. Sasha's was hard for me to judge on TV because of the camera angle (she was headed straight into the camera), but it looked like she barely got into a proper Ina Bauer position at all. Shizuka did a fine Ina Bauer, but she didn't hold it very long and she then took plenty of time in straightening up and preparing her jump entry as usual.

Are there rules that define what a "difficult and unusual entry" requires, or is this left up to the opinion of the judges?

I was always impressed with Matt Savoie's hydroplane entry, in which he really did seem just to pop up into a jump from the low-to-the ice position.

Who would you say has a unique jump entry that the CoP will reward this year?

Mathman

Mathman said:

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Who would you say has a unique jump entry that the CoP will reward this year?
Mathman

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Slutskaya's 3turns into 3loop, tano axel, lutz
Honda's spread eagle into 3axel.

I think Irina should bring her tano axel/lutz back, she'll be rewarded for doing it. She said that she stopped doing the tano axel because judges were not rewarding her for it consideirng it was very difficult.

Good post, Mathman. I see many skaters do a 'field' move and then a jump. However, there are very few who connect the two as if were a combo. Most do them separately.

Joe

Interesting question - I have not read any rules about what constitutes a "difficult" jump entry (but I confess that I have not waded through all of the ISU's summer publications, LOL). From what I remember, there was definitely a break between both Sasha's Bauer and Shizuka's Bauer and the subsequent jump (more so with Sasha, IIRC), but they both may still qualify as difficult entries under CoP because of the additional balance and strength required to transition from the extra move (e.g., Bauer) to the jump while maintaining sufficient speed to execute the jump. Still, it's certainly much more interesting when the jump comes as a suprise because there is no break.

Johnny Weir had a neat backward shoot the duck in a catch foot position into his lutz. I think he also had a step in between the two, yet Dick remarked that Johnny's was a very difficult entry, so who knows.

While difficult, I find 3 turns into a loop rather predictable - maybe because it's a fairly common entry for single or even double loops. A spread eagle into an axel always wows me.

There no competition between Sasha and Shizuka in Jump entrances, Shizuka's jumps are never telegraphed, they come out of now where, she is the one to beat, very strong competitor right now.

Tim's hybird(term, spelling?) into the loop is very impressive. Since he has to adjust his postions from very low deep down then up to the entry of jump. which needs extremly strength on legs.

I was watching Plush's Godfather program and he does a spread eagle into a triple flip or triple lutz (normally I can indentify both jumps but since he is doing from a spread eagle, I don't know exactñy), I think COP does reward from that, doens't it?

One would think, as other posters have mentioned, that CoP rewards those jumps that seem to come out of nowhere, ones that are not telegraphed. As for me, I'm waiting for someone to do something unusual, like spread eagle to 3salchow/half loop/3flip. I'm definitely not as fond of the 3/3/2 jumps - it always seems that last double just looks tacked on.

As a side note, I always wondered why people on various boards refer to spread eagles as "field moves". Spread eagles are definitely not in any of the moves in the field tests.

Excidra2001 said:

I think Irina should bring her tano axel/lutz back, she'll be rewarded for doing it. She said that she stopped doing the tano axel because judges were not rewarding her for it consideirng it was very difficult.

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Her tano axel was so pretty! I hope she does bring it back.

I think Mike Weiss at times has done a shoot-the-duck position into a jump. And Klimkin's camel spin into a triple sal should definitely get some bonus, or would, if he were competing in GP events this year. SIGHHHHHHH

Kasey

dobiesk8r said:

One would think, as other posters have mentioned, that CoP rewards those jumps that seem to come out of nowhere, ones that are not telegraphed.

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If only this would be enforced! Liashenko won a series of events last year, and not only does she have an awful telegraph into all of her toe jumps, she also squats before her 3F take-off. I did not see the required deductions reflected in her scores across-the-board last year, but the ISU at least knows who the culprits are. The question is whether the ISU will bring the culprits into line this year.

hockeyfan228 said:

If only this would be enforced! Liashenko won a series of events last year, and not only does she have an awful telegraph into all of her toe jumps, she also squats before her 3F take-off. I did not see the required deductions reflected in her scores across-the-board last year, but the ISU at least knows who the culprits are. The question is whether the ISU will bring the culprits into line this year.

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Well, most jumps that take off from the correct edge, are fully rotated (taking into account the natural curve of the takeoff and landing edges), and landed on the correct edge are going to be "rewarded" with full credit and a 0 grade of execution. Just because there's a long preparation or an awkward position here or there doesn't warrant a deduction (negative grade of execution).

Jumps that are particularly *good* in most phases, including short preparation, will be rewarded beyond the base mark with a +1 GOE, or if they're really special +2 or even +3.

Rewarding these qualities with extra credit doesn't take away from the fact that completed jumps that don't have those qualities will still be rewarded with the base credit.

Actually according to the rules, to telegraph jumps would be a -1 in GOE, what I do hopes the judges gets it right it's to penalized flutz that it's a -3, -2, -1 in GOE (the penalty depends on how severe is the change of edge)

gkelly said:

Well, most jumps that take off from the correct edge, are fully rotated (taking into account the natural curve of the takeoff and landing edges), and landed on the correct edge are going to be "rewarded" with full credit and a 0 grade of execution. Just because there's a long preparation or an awkward position here or there doesn't warrant a deduction (negative grade of execution).

Jumps that are particularly *good* in most phases, including short preparation, will be rewarded beyond the base mark with a +1 GOE, or if they're really special +2 or even +3.

Rewarding these qualities with extra credit doesn't take away from the fact that completed jumps that don't have those qualities will still be rewarded with the base credit.

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According to the ISU documentation for the short program
(http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152075-169291-64125-0-file,00.pdf)

2. First a judge evaluates the quality of an element (e.g. +1), then deducts for errors (e.g. -3) to obtain the final grade (e.g. +1-3=-2)

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In order to qualify for a +1 before errors, the jump must have

Good technique on at least three phases of the jump described in base value or
- a jump of base value with varied positions in the air or delay in rotations
- good flow in and acceptable flow out of the jump

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According to ISU grid, there is a required deduction of -1 is for "Minor problem in one phase of the jump," one of which is "long preparation (telegraphed)". While it is possible to net a 0 score for the jump if it starts from +1, there is a required deduction for the telegraph. However, the requirement to start with +2, which is necessary to receive a + GOE after the required deduction is applied, is

Good or very good technique and execution in all phases of the jump

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Since there is a required deduction for a telegraph, this would seem to disqualify any jump with one (or any other error that requires a deduction) from a initial evaluation value of +2.

Here are Liashenko's scores on elements that contain lutz and flip:

Cup of China:

SP:
3Z/2T: 0.2
1F (steps): -0.3 (fall)

LP:
3Z/2T: 0.4
3F: -0.2
3F/2T SEQ: =-1.6
3Z: -0.4

Cup of Russia:

SP:
3Z/2T: 0.8 (one score of 2, but who knows if it counted)
3F (steps): -1.6 (which means at least one other error)

LP:
3Z/2T: 1.0
3F: -0.4
3F/2T: 0
1Z: -.06 (3 -2's, 1 -1, and the rest 0's)

NHK:

SP:
3Z/2T: 0.8
3F (steps): -3 (fall)

LP:
3Z/2T: 0.8
3F: 1.0
3Z: -0.4
3F+2T: 0.2

GPF:

SP:
3Z/2T: 0.4
3F (steps): 0.4

LP:
3Z/2T: 0.8
3F: 1.0
3Z: -0.4
3F/2T: 1.0

Liashenko's preparation, including lifting the knee for a good portion of the diagonal, is standard for her lutzes and flips without steps. However, she received positive GOE on her all eight of her lutz combinations and half of her flip combinations throughout GP, and she may have received deductions for the telegraph on some of her single lutzes and flips. I don't understand how this should be correct, when the highest mark for a telegraphed jump or combo should net out to 0.

At the risk of sounding stupid....what is a 'Tano Axel? I know the 'Tano triple (Lutz with the arm over head), but never heard of the tano axel...is it the same thing?

Brave, I believe the "tano" axel is just an axel with the arm over the head. Very effective! I would like to see more difficult footwork right into a jump. Paul Wylie did this many times, but most dynamicly in his "Henry V" LP from 91-92. He had very fast, difficult footwork that led right into a 3t. It was incredible. I also thought Rosalynn Sumners did the best Ina Bauer into a double axel. That was a great move!