Carol Heiss, The Coach

SkateFan4Life · Oct 14, 2004

Carol Heiss won five World titles and the 1960 Olympic gold medal in women's figure skating, and for the past twenty-five years or so, she's been very actively involved in the sport as an elite coach in the Cleveland, Ohio area. She has coached some very promising skaters - Lisa Ervin (1993 US silver medalist), Timothy Goebel (who left Heiss to train with Frank Carroll), and Tonia Kwiatkowski, a perpetual "bridesmaid" at US Nationals. I guess my question is, why has she had so few top skaters? She doesn't seem to train the skaters who win major titles. Why is that? Heiss appears to be a very intelligent, motivated, and positive person who would make a fantastic skating coach. Is her lack of top students due to her Ohio location? It's just puzzling to me, that's all. Frankly, I would have expected to see Heiss at the Olympics by now, as the coach of a medal-winning skater.

Ptichka · Oct 14, 2004

Great topic. I don't think many top elite skaters went on to be world class coaches, though many tried. Look at Rodnina, for example -- a super-champion, she's only had moderate success in coaching.

Currently, many former elite skaters are coaching.

Lininchuk & Karponosov. While they did win the OGM, they can hardly be considered legends in the sport. On the other side, while they've trained some Olympians, I can't help feeling it was due in large part to sheer numbers.

Oleg Vasiliev. Also a champion but not a legend. Perhaps he can become a great coach, but the jury is still out. It is also out for Zhulin, Platov, Usova, Dmitriev, and many others. Similarly, while I'd be thrilled if Yagudin becomes a great coach, we currently have no evidence of that happening.

There are many theories as to why that is so. One is that the legends in the sport have some things come naturally to them, and therefore have trouble teaching others. I am not sure that's so. I rather think that the qualities that make one an athlete and the qualities that make one a coach are two completely different sets that may or may not interesect.

soogar · Oct 14, 2004

Actually I think that Carol Heiss is a great coach and probably the only successful coach who was a successful singles skater. I think that the fact that she has had so many students make it to national senior level speaks volumes about her coaching ability. On FSU, it was mentioned that carol doesn't have the team of people like Frank and Richard (ie choreographers, trainers etc) and that was what hurts her as a coach (they were discussing how yet another promising student has left Carol for Tatiana Tarasova). I think that maybe Carol doesn't want to be a big time coach. Not everyone wants to deal with the stress and pressure of having a huge entourage working for them and lots of students. Carol strikes me as someone who genuinely loves to teach skating and perhaps she just doesn't have that extra push in her to get her student to the top. Also it could be the club she's coaching at as well. Perhaps the big clubs in California and Michigan have an unfair advantage.

Linny · Oct 14, 2004

Jury still out?

Would have to respectfully disagree that the jury is still out with regard to Zulin as a coach. One of his dance teams has done rather well...
Linny

PAskate · Oct 14, 2004

Probably the best person to answer those questions would be former students of Carol. I can make guesses based on stories that I've heard, but I think that personal experience probably best answers that type of question. Each coach has an unique style and I think that as skating progresses over time different coaches can be more or less successful.

Ptichka · Oct 14, 2004

Linny said:
Would have to respectfully disagree that the jury is still out with regard to Zulin as a coach. One of his dance teams has done rather well...

How much of Navka and Kostomarov's success is due to Zhulin? Navka comes from the old Dubova school, so her technique is one of the best in the world. Kostomarov has spent a lot of time with Lininchuk. I am just not sure exactly how much their success is his doing.

His other students - Abt, Murvanidze, haven't done too well with thim.

Joseph & Forsyth broke up before we could see results. I wouldn't say his results with Lang & Tchernyshev were at all impressive...

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Zhulin is a bad coach, I am just not ready to declare him a great one.

***********************************************
I think one of the problems with many athletes-turn-coaches is that they immediately get many quite established skaters. Perhaps, there is an advantage in building up one's experience from the ground up. BTW, in one interview Igor Shpilband said that he considers the best experience earning activity working with kids. He sayd he still sometimes does it.

nuggetr · Oct 14, 2004

I have wondered the same thing over the past few years. Jill Trenary was with Carol for a very short time, she had to go through regionals ( did a very nice job I might say ) then just gave up skating, I never did hear why she just left like she did. I have wondered what the problem was there. Would like to see a local girl get to the senior level. I live close to both Winterhurst and Ice Land so I could get to either place to see some good skating!!!

jesslily · Oct 14, 2004

Champion skaters are not necessarily going to be good coach. It is similar like the Nobel Prize winners, not necessarily going to be a good teacher. To be a good coach, you should know how to explain things in a way your skater would love to here. Good coaches should know how to motivate your student. You know all the techniques, but it's not necessarily that you can execute yourself. Basically you don't have to be a champion skater in order to be a great coach. That's why champion skaters never coach any champions themselves. But most champions are taught by coaches who have never won any major titles.

Mathman · Oct 14, 2004

Parker Pennington (U.S. junior champion in 2001) is the latest to leave Heiss Jenkins, as has his brother, 2003 U.S. novice champion Colin Pennington. According to Spotlight on Skating magazine, Heiss Jenkins said she was "surprised and disappointed." As I recall, she was surprised and disappointed when Tim Goebel left, also.

Mathman

thisthingcalledlove · Oct 15, 2004

All I have to say about this is...those who can, do. Those who can't, teach...

Bin Yao is the best pairs coach in China...he and his partner were the worst pair in both the Sarajevo and Calgary Olympics.

Ladskater · Oct 15, 2004

SkateFan4Life said:
Carol Heiss won five World titles and the 1960 Olympic gold medal in women's figure skating, and for the past twenty-five years or so, she's been very actively involved in the sport as an elite coach in the Cleveland, Ohio area. She has coached some very promising skaters - Lisa Ervin (1993 US silver medalist), Timothy Goebel (who left Heiss to train with Frank Carroll), and Tonia Kwiatkowski, a perpetual "bridesmaid" at US Nationals. I guess my question is, why has she had so few top skaters? She doesn't seem to train the skaters who win major titles. Why is that? Heiss appears to be a very intelligent, motivated, and positive person who would make a fantastic skating coach. Is her lack of top students due to her Ohio location? It's just puzzling to me, that's all. Frankly, I would have expected to see Heiss at the Olympics by now, as the coach of a medal-winning skater.

First of all, teaching figure skating, and producing champions is not the easy task it may look. There is the day-to-day grind of being a coach - dealing with parents and skating officials and finding skaters who have the goal to be a world champion. Not every skater wants to be a world champion.

Frankly, I don't think Carol Heiss has anything to be ashamed of. She was a five time world champion and Olympic gold medalist - when figures counted. I am sure her credentials speak for themsleves and she is much sought after as a coach.

Skaters have many reasons for becoming coaches. It's not entirely to be in the limelight, like a rock star. Afterall, who did you hear more about The Beatles or George Martin (their producer)?

Teaching skating is a demanding job as much as it is rewarding. Most coaches are satisfied to teach on a day-to-day basis knowing they are contributing to their sport. If one of their skaters becomes famous down the road, they have the satisfaction of knowing they contributed to that skaters success by teaching them the basics. Every skater starts out with the basics.

Coaches with the background of Carol Heiss are valuable to any skater. They know what is involved in competing and making it to the top. I think any skater would appreciate this.

Rachael · Oct 15, 2004

http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1097325011101830.xml

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 15, 2004

The original rivalry in figure skating was between Tenley and Carol and more than anything else it showed the difference in styles.

Tenley was the first skater to stretch out her legs a la ballet (Sonia did later as a Pro). Tenley was the lyrical

Carol, on the other hand, was the first skater to push the techncial aspects of figure skating. Carol was the bravura

Presentation has always been a subjective call and it began way back when.

Joe

Mathman · Oct 15, 2004

Rachel, thanks for the link. Interesting perspective.

MM

SkateFan4Life · Oct 15, 2004

soogar said:
Not everyone wants to deal with the stress and pressure of having a huge entourage working for them and lots of students. Carol strikes me as someone who genuinely loves to teach skating and perhaps she just doesn't have that extra push in her to get her student to the top. Also it could be the club she's coaching at as well. Perhaps the big clubs in California and Michigan have an unfair advantage.

I, too, think that Carol Heiss genuinely loves teaching, but I find it a bit hard to believe that she "doesn't have that extra push in her to get her students to the top", as you write. After all, she won five World titles and an Olympic gold medal, not to mention countless US titles during her illustrous amateur skating career. She certainly had the push she needed to be a champion when she was young. I agree with you that Heiss may be at a disadvantage in that she's not teaching in a facility that boasts other top coaches, choregraphers, etc. It's not that Winterhurst is in the boondocks, but it's not exactly a location to attract people, either. Just my opinion, of course.

SkateFan4Life · Oct 15, 2004

nuggetr said:
I have wondered the same thing over the past few years. Jill Trenary was with Carol for a very short time, she had to go through regionals ( did a very nice job I might say ) then just gave up skating, I never did hear why she just left like she did. I have wondered what the problem was there. /QUOTE]

Jill Trenary briefly followed her coaches Carlo and Christa Fassi, when they relocated from Colorado Springs to Italy, and she continued to train with them for a short time. Trenary returned to the US and looked for a new skating coach.
As you wrote, she trained with Carol Heiss at Winterhurst for a short while. This was between her World championship victory in 1990 and the fall of 1991.
Trenary had ankle surgery during the 1991, and she missed the entire competitive season. She attempted to return to competition, but had several disastrous competitions in the fall of 1991, and she retired prior to the 1992 US Nationals. The handwriting was on the wall, as far as Trenary was concerned. The US had a fantastic trio in Kristi Yamaguchi, Tonya Harding, and Nancy Kerrigan - a threesome who had swept the medals at the 1991 World Championshps. Trenary was a beautiful skater, but her technical content
was not in the same class as those three. The did not have a triple lutz or triple loop, and her most difficult jump, a triple flip, was inconsistent, at best.

While Trenary was training with Carol Heiss, she shared the ice with her other students, including Tonia Kwiatkowski. I remember reading Tonia's opinion of that scenario - "I would have liked to have had more time with Carol to take more lessons (paraphrased). Perhaps Heiss was trying to concentrate exclusively on Trenary, who after all, was a 3-time US champion and World champion when she came to her. In any case, Trenary retired.

I do remember that when Tonia Kwiatkowski won the silver medal at the 1996 US Nationals, she had a fantastic long program and was absolutely ecstatic. Carol Heiss seemed to be just as thrilled for her. It happened to be Heiss's birthday, and Tonia sang "Happy Birthday" to her coach as they sat in the kiss and cry area, waiting for her marks. It was a nice moment for coach and skater.

gkelly · Oct 18, 2004

Joesitz said:
Tenley was the first skater to stretch out her legs a la ballet (Sonia did later as a Pro). Tenley was the lyrical

Most of Sonja Henie's pro career occurred before most of Tenley Albright's amateur career.

Did Charlotte Oelschlagel, Cecilia Colledge, and other skaters known for flexibility moves not stretch out their legs? I haven't seen enough pictures much less films of them or Albright to really say.

Carol, on the other hand, was the first skater to push the techncial aspects of figure skating. Carol was the bravura

I have no idea what you mean by this.

If no one had pushed the technical aspects of figure skating before the 1950s, how did the sport develop from nothing to a high level of technique, including all all the basic turns, a variety of spins, and all double jumps and even triples for men, before Carol Heiss came along?

RealtorGal · Oct 18, 2004

I believe that a lot of skaters come to these famous coaches once their technique has already been established. For example, who is getting the credit for Arakawa's World gold medal this year? On the other hand, who can name the coach who trained her all these years? Carol, on the other hand, seems to be taking many skaters from the ground level up. I think that she's got a lot to be proud of. :party2:

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 19, 2004

gKelly - Sad but true, we do not have enough newreels of those skaters you mentioned. I would love to see them. I'm basing my take on that TV showing of the American female skaters which kind of began with Tenley, and how different Carol was in comparison to posture and line.

As for total beautiful acrobatic, limber, flexibility (whatever you want to call it) there was a movie skater called Belita. If you can get a copy of Suspicion, there you will see, imo, the most flexible skater ever. I've never been able to find out if she skated competitions.

Bravura is a musical term which in essence means virtuoso. It means strong technique capable of going beyond the best. When explaining this I usually use Menudhin(sp) as lyrical and Jaifitz(sp) as bravura or virtuoso. Carol for her time and we are talking back in the early 50s was quite different then Tenley. Carol was the jumper. They both were the best in their era.
As for men at the time, I was not speaking about them. The topic was Carol.

Joe

gkelly · Oct 19, 2004

Joesitz said:
I'm basing my take on that TV showing of the American female skaters which kind of began with Tenley, and how different Carol was in comparison to posture and line.

You wrote: "Tenley was the first skater to stretch out her legs a la ballet "

Allow me to translate, now that you've clarified. What you really meant was "Tenley was the first skater THAT I, JOE, EVER SAW to stretch out her legs a la ballet."

As for men at the time, I was not speaking about them. The topic was Carol.

You wrote "Carol, on the other hand, was the first skater to push the techncial aspects of figure skating."

Translation:

"Carol, on the other hand, was the female skater who most pushed the technical aspects of figure skating during that era."

Or

"Carol was the first skater I WATCHED PERSONALLY to push the the technical aspects of figure skating."

Sure, there was no televised skating in the 1920s and 30s, but there were American female skaters before that, including Olympic medalists Theresa Weld Blanchard, Beatrix Loughran, and Maribel Vinson.

Just because we didn't see them skate doesn't mean that they didn't influence those who came afterward, for instance by pushing the technical and artistic potentials of skating to the limits that existed in their day.

Carol Heiss, The Coach

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