What does career of a skater look like? | Golden Skate

What does career of a skater look like?

Arwen17

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
What does the typical career of a senior-world-level figure skater look like?

Travel back in time, you are now 3 or 4 years old (or your daughter is 3 or 4 years old). You go to your first ice rink and join LTS classes.
Generally, do the "talented" kids graduate LTS classes around 5 or 6 years old?
For people (or parents) who know they want to be serious about this sport, do they travel and find "pro" coaches right from the beginning or do they wait a few years?
It seems like Russia has certain schools set up that are known for "creating champions".
Do people just fall into competitive skating after a few years or do they pursue it with intensity from the age of 4 with the best coaches and the best schools/clubs/ice-arenas?

I suppose by the age of 13-14, they will have generally reached Junior World events. And then, if they're lucky they'll get to move up to Senior events around age 15-16. By age 20-23, they generally retire from skating and move on to other things.
During ages 4-13, what are they doing to get themselves up to Junior World level?
For example, at what age have they likely passed all of their MIF tests? (but not the FS tests. They won't pass FS tests until they're ready to move up in competition levels. AKA if they want to continue to compete at Junior World events they can't take the Senior FS test yet.)

Paint me a picture of the typical progress of the girls who compete at the Senior level. I know they all start skating at age 4 for the most part, since that's what they all say when they're interviewed.
I know skaters blossom at different speeds, but in general, all skaters who arrive at the World stage have about 10 years of experience in figure skating by the time they're age 14. They also have all of their triple jumps by this age too.
I'm going to attempt to breakdown this "10 year progress" of what it takes to get them to the Junior World level:
Year 1-2 (age 4-6) - LTS classes
Year 3 (age 7-8) - single jumps (toe thru lutz) mastered, MIF up to Juvenile level?
Year 4 (age 8-9) - (axel, 2T, 2S) , MIF up to Novice level?
Year 5 (age 10-11) - (2Lo, 2F, 2L), MIF up to Junior level?
Year 6-7 (age 11-12) - (2A, 3T, 3S), MIF up to Senior level
Year 8 (age 12-13) - (3Lo, 3F, 3L)
Year 9 (age 13-14) - Junior World events
Year 10 (age 15-22) - Senior World events (those who can't cut it may stay at Junior level until age 19)

I added the extra year to the LTS era since that can take awhile if the kid/parents aren't serious yet and just testing the waters. And I added extra time to the 2A era since that's a huge stepping stone. I believe 2A and above is supposed to be the difference between "naturally talented" and "hardworker".
I might be being too generous with this time outline. They may learn the elements much quicker than this and then spend ages 11-13 fighting to get them perfect and consistent for competition at the Junior Word level.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Way too varied based on skater to even plot a chart or a list like this.
 

Arwen17

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Way too varied based on skater to even plot a chart or a list like this.

I don't think its that varied if we confine ourselves to the ones who make it all the way to Senior level events. All of the girls at senior level are in their late teens. The few that are in their twenties have been in Senior level since their teens. They enter around ages 15-17 and retire around 20-24, in general. They may go on to Adult competitions or show skating afterwards, but they leave the senior stage.
Every interview I listen to from senior world skaters is "I started skating when I was age 4, I've been skating for 10 years, I'm in the prime of my career, blah blah"
There are a few who start later and manage to catch up, but they're rare.
 

chiyung

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 1, 2017
I agree there is a huge variation, and I do have some thoughts on the timeline you provided based on non-elite, but above-average skaters I know or I've seen in local competitions.

For a skater to start skating in pre-school and advance to really high FS level, I think the jumps are more advance than shown on the chart. I know several girls who started skating at age 3 or 4 and are above average, who were able to start Freestyle 1 at age 5. At local No Test FS competitions (with single Lutz), there are 6-year-old girls in them. At local Pre-Pre FS competitions (with single Axel), there are 7-year-old girls in them. At local Prelim (with double Loop) and PJ FS competitions (with double Lutz), there are 8-year-old girls in them. At Juv FS national, there seem to always be 10-year-old girls who can land clean double axels. I think the 12-year-old girl who just won Jr FS at USFS national had landed clean double Lutz at age 9, clean triple Salchow at age 10, and clean triple Lutz at age 11 in competition.

For a skater to start skating in pre-school and advance to really high FS level, I think the MIF tests are usually later in her life than shown on the chart. This is because most don't appear to test until a few months before they need to pass the FS test. I also think those skaters would be able to pass advance MIF tests at younger ages if they practiced the MIF elements.

Even though the variation is huge, it is possible to build partial profiles (Juv and later) from publicly available information of individual skaters to get a sense of what it could take. A website like www.statsonice.com lists some of the competitions that skaters competed in. The ice network website web.icenetwork.com provides the skaters' protocols at regionals, sectionals, and national so one could see what jumps were landed cleanly. USFS website www.usfsa.org/story?id=84164 lists when skaters pass each USFS skating test. The publicly available free data only go back a few years, so it may be a tool to see future skating stars' profiles.

In the US, kids stay local and do not pursue skating with serious intensity until at least the Juv FS level. The Juv and Int FS skaters we know skate and compete because they enjoy skating.
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
I don't think its that varied if we confine ourselves to the ones who make it all the way to Senior level events. All of the girls at senior level are in their late teens. The few that are in their twenties have been in Senior level since their teens. They enter around ages 15-17 and retire around 20-24, in general. They may go on to Adult competitions or show skating afterwards, but they leave the senior stage.
Every interview I listen to from senior world skaters is "I started skating when I was age 4, I've been skating for 10 years, I'm in the prime of my career, blah blah"
There are a few who start later and manage to catch up, but they're rare.

Ic3Rabbit is a former elite skater. I think they would know better than anyone.

But there is too much variation. I doubt any one competitors progress looks exactly the same. Also- elite Intermediates and Novices don't necessarily become competitive seniors.
 

Mussique

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
I think the worst problem with this kind of threads is that they're too vague to give a definitive answer.

Just geographically speaking —the life of a "world-level-senior skater" looks very different if they're Russian or, shall we say, Filipino. Or Spanish. If you watch the different National competitions the gape is immense. In Spain this year for the first time ever we have two Novice girls with two triples (sal and toe).
With such kind of variation it's really difficult to make an accurate chart, if not impossible. There's also a not-despicable number of late bloomers (Johnny Weir! You said that they're rare, but I don't think that's exactly true, at least in terms of maintaining themselves on the top for a lot of time), and the opposite is also true —brilliant children that retire too soon or become injured.

I mean, if you wanted to do an "average" from the top skaters (that's kinda what I get you want us to do?) and get when they started and when did they get they jumps, you'd probably get a number. But it wouldn't hold much significance, since the deviation would be too wide. It's kind of like that saying of "if my neighbor has 10 cars and I have none, on average we have 5 cars each".

I'm guessing if you restricted your question to "what jumps needs to have a 13-yr-old Russian girl to do well in local competitions" the answer could be more precise (and even then there'd be a lot of variation, since skating is about a wide variety of skills), but as it's asked I don't think anyone could give a very accurate answer...
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
I don't think its that varied if we confine ourselves to the ones who make it all the way to Senior level events. All of the girls at senior level are in their late teens. The few that are in their twenties have been in Senior level since their teens. They enter around ages 15-17 and retire around 20-24, in general. They may go on to Adult competitions or show skating afterwards, but they leave the senior stage.
Every interview I listen to from senior world skaters is "I started skating when I was age 4, I've been skating for 10 years, I'm in the prime of my career, blah blah"
There are a few who start later and manage to catch up, but they're rare.

Since I've been there and done that myself, and am friends with many that also have, I'm going to just agree to disagree with you here.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If we're talking about MIF tests, than we're talking about the US specifically.

Other countries may have other testing systems or no tests at all.

And the demographics and economics of who starts skating at all and who commits to aiming for elite levels and what resources and competition for those resources are available in their countries will also differ.

For a skater to start skating in pre-school and advance to really high FS level, I think the MIF tests are usually later in her life than shown on the chart. This is because most don't appear to test until a few months before they need to pass the FS test. I also think those skaters would be able to pass advance MIF tests at younger ages if they practiced the MIF elements.

Even that really depends on the skater, and on the coach. It seems that some US coaches encourage their skaters to focus on working moves tests early on so that the skaters have strong skating skills and all the various skills needed for leveled step sequences by the time they get to Intermediate level. Others focus on perfecting the specific skills needed for that season's program(s) and whatever general skills the skater needs to be competitive at their level, and treat testing as just something to get out of the way when it's time to move up a level.

If you're looking at this from the top down -- of those who did make it to the top, what did they do to get there? -- you'll probably find some of each philosophy, or some that split the difference.

And of course the emphases might be different for skaters who are aiming for top competitive results vs. those who have more modest goals, even with the same coach.
 

Arwen17

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Some great answers, guys, thank you! I wasn't expecting a concrete definition, just wanted to get some discussion and insight on it because I find it very interesting.
 

Scout

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
It does vary, but I'd guess that as a whole, it is getting faster in terms of getting jumps than what you have listed, particularly for a senior-world-level skater in a powerhouse country. I've seen a bunch of youtube videos of 6 year olds with single axels and double salchows. There's one of Emily Hughes and Nicole Bobek when Emily is 6 and she does a great single axel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeSDFjOhvQ8

At age 11/12, there are a bunch of girls with all the triples and triple-triple combos (Alysa Liu and what seems like every Russian girl). IIRC Yuna Kim once said she landed her first triple flip at 11.

Then there is the other end: the Johnny Weirs, who land their first single axel at age 12 (but after apparently only working on it for a week or something).
 

chiyung

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 1, 2017
I was curious about what the difference was between girl and boy skaters in terms of jumps. I searched online and found that Nathan Chen was competing at Juv level at Nationals in the 06/07 and 07/08 seasons. I think that would put him at age 7 and 8 with all his double jumps. He competed at Intermediate level in the 08/09 season at age 9. I don’t have access to his protocols back then, but I believe the Int level includes triple jumps. I guess boys could land triple jumps by age 9, at least a year before girls have been able to.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It really depends on the skater -- both when they start, when they get serious about training toward elite levels, and

On average boys tend to learn jumps more easily, but they also tend to start later or peak later. Most girls who are going to be elite are preteens in Intermediate. It's not uncommon for boys already in their early teens to be competing intermediate at sectionals and Nationals. Same with novice -- most of boys are high school age, more of the girls are still middle schoolers.

But there are exceptions -- there are occasional prodigies who master jumps especially early among both sexes. Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhou are recent examples among American men. That doesn't make them the norm, but it does make it more likely that they will reach the top assuming they stay motivated and uninjured.
 

jf12

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
I was curious about what the difference was between girl and boy skaters in terms of jumps. I searched online and found that Nathan Chen was competing at Juv level at Nationals in the 06/07 and 07/08 seasons. I think that would put him at age 7 and 8 with all his double jumps. He competed at Intermediate level in the 08/09 season at age 9. I don’t have access to his protocols back then, but I believe the Int level includes triple jumps. I guess boys could land triple jumps by age 9, at least a year before girls have been able to.

I skate with several boys and girls who are nationally competitive in Juv, around 10 years old. Their jumps all look about the same level between boys and girls to me - all have clean double axel and working on triples that aren't currently that reliable. I believe most boys start to pass the girls on jumps later through puberty and beyond. I think Nathan was just really special as an individual.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think Nathan was just really special as an individual.

Yes.

Also, of the kids who show stand out as showing promise as juveniles and young intermediates or very young novices, boys are more likely succeed at higher levels than girls for two main reasons:

1) In general, mature female bodies are not as good at jumping as prepubescent female bodies. Girls who had clean double axels and even clean triples as preteens might lose the ability to do those jumps as they finish growing. They won't necessarily know at 12 or 13 what their bodies will be shaped like at 16 or 17.

2) There are a lot more girls than boys. A talented boy can afford to have a bad day at regionals or sectionals and still qualify for Nationals. A really talented one might even be able to falter at Nationals and still end up with silver or bronze. For girls, one bad day along the way can end their qualifying season in October, and if they do come back the next year or the year after that ready to skate their best, they're no longer the hot new thing.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Not exactly what the OP was asking but along the lines of "What does the career of a skater look like?" I was hoping we could make a list of possible jobs/careers available to skaters. Here's my list so far:

- Perform with traveling ice show like Disney on Ice
- Coach other skaters
- Manage a learn to skate program
- Work as a choreographer

What else...?
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
For the very, very elite - Be a commentator (TV or Ice Network).

Many go on to something else. I know some former National level competitors that are now lawyers. Debbie Thomas became a MD.
 
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