Should FS tests decide comp level?

chiyung · Jan 26, 2018

gkelly said:
What I've tended to see with serious competitors at the rinks I've skated at is either 1) they get through the moves tests quickly early in their careers and then already have all the skills with senior-MIF-passing quality by intermediate level and can focus on combining those skating skills with technical elements and presentation skills in their programs at higher levels and improving the quality and difficult of the basic skating as needed to remain competitive as they move up the ladder, or 2) they focus on developing the skills they need to be competitive at each level, including the difficulty of the steps and the quality of the basic skating at a much higher standard than what would pass the test for that level, and then they wait till they're getting ready to move up before learning the patterns and passing the tests.

This got me wondering how prevalent the use of MIF is in early IJS competitions nowadays (by Juvenile FS or Intermediate FS levels). Some good skaters may not need it, but there appear to be some who do work on it.

I dug into real data from the Juvenile Girls competition at USFS National 2018 and what USFS published online on its tests passed (as of Nov 2017). There were 5 girls who passed Sr MIF at Juv Girls Free Skate Nationals. Most have passed either Jr or Sr MIFs, but there are apparently some who have only tested MIF when needed to move up to the next FS competition level.

Place | Element Score | Program Component Score | MIF level passed
1 | 34.38 | 31.29 | Sr MIF
2 | 32.90 | 30.93 | Sr MIF
3 | 32.83 | 30.63 | Int MIF
4 | 27.31 | 27.44 | Sr MIF
5 | 29.67 | 24.76 | Juv MIF
6 | 29.34 | 24.43 | Jr MIF
7 | 26.90 | 27.10 | Nov MIF
8 | 27.42 | 26.92 | Sr MIF
9 | 24.17 | 27.03 | Nov MIF
10 | 19.59 | 26.75 | Sr MIF
11 | 23.23 | 23.02 | Jr MIF
12 | 21.50 | 22.93 | Nov MIF

Furthermore, I tried digging into some USFS test history of some Senior ladies, which is difficult to do because I could only find recent ones posted online, and a lot of Senior ladies passed many years ago. One test history that I found interesting is for Starr Andrews (below). She's a really good skater who appear to have been just passing the MIF tests in order to move up to the next FS competition level.

Pre-Pre MIF (7/10)
Pre-Pre FS (7/10)
Prelim MIF (3/12)
Prelim FS (3/12)
PJ MIF (2/13)
PJ FS (2/13)
Juv MIF (8/13)
Juv FS (8/13)
Int MIF (4/14)
Int FS (4/14)
Nov MIF (3/15)
Nov FS (4/15)
Jr MIF (4/16)
Jr FS (8/16)
Sr MIF (7/17)
Sr FS (7/17)

VegMom · Jan 26, 2018

We were told at a recent Skating Club event that singles events are likely to separate into two groups where one stays as it is and the other is more like ice dance - focuses more on the moves and figures, less on the jumps. I don't know how accurate that is or not but for those of us with younger children we were told that it's very likely by the time our children get to be at the top of their skating careers there would be a singles option that doesn't require doing triples or quads.

concorde · Jan 26, 2018

VegMom said:
We were told at a recent Skating Club event that singles events are likely to separate into two groups where one stays as it is and the other is more like ice dance - focuses more on the moves and figures, less on the jumps. I don't know how accurate that is or not but for those of us with younger children we were told that it's very likely by the time our children get to be at the top of their skating careers there would be a singles option that doesn't require doing triples or quads.

I have never heard that before and I have a 12 year old unless the second option is "solo ice dance." That is relatively new, within the last 5 years or so.

Regarding MIF / FS levels. When we go to different rinks, I tend to read the bulletin boards that provide information about the local clubs. What I have noticed is certain clubs seem to keep the two tests in balance whereas other clubs seem to push MIF early. My guess is it may be related to available ice time- clubs with only 1 sheet of ice have "balanced" skaters whereas the clubs with multiple rinks, each with multiple sheets, have lots of "early" passers.

treesprite · Jan 26, 2018

concorde said:
I have never heard that before and I have a 12 year old unless the second option is "solo ice dance." That is relatively new, within the last 5 years or so.

Regarding MIF / FS levels. When we go to different rinks, I tend to read the bulletin boards that provide information about the local clubs. What I have noticed is certain clubs seem to keep the two tests in balance whereas other clubs seem to push MIF early. My guess is it may be related to available ice time- clubs with only 1 sheet of ice have "balanced" skaters whereas the clubs with multiple rinks, each with multiple sheets, have lots of "early" passers.

I think this might be true here. We have several FS and "open FS" sessions 7 days a week, in morning, after school, and in the early evening, and some are at times most kids are in school, so then the home schooled kids are skating. Some of the FS sessions are full and end up with wait lists. On top of that, a lot of the younger ones (juv and below) also practice in public sessions between the after school and evening FS sessions, so they are on the ice pretty much from 3:45 to 8:00, and some probably also in the morning before school. At least 10 of them also skate during the Tuesday public that goes until 10pm. They don't do anything outside of school and skating, which is actually kind of sad and they will probably regret not knowing anything when they have their own kids (sorry, going off topic).

Mussique · Jan 26, 2018

treesprite said:
I think this might be true here. We have several FS and "open FS" sessions 7 days a week, in morning, after school, and in the early evening, and some are at times most kids are in school, so then the home schooled kids are skating. Some of the FS sessions are full and end up with wait lists. On top of that, a lot of the younger ones (juv and below) also practice in public sessions between the after school and evening FS sessions, so they are on the ice pretty much from 3:45 to 8:00, and some probably also in the morning before school. At least 10 of them also skate during the Tuesday public that goes until 10pm. They don't do anything outside of school and skating, which is actually kind of sad and they will probably regret not knowing anything when they have their own kids (sorry, going off topic).

Well, that's kind of presuming too much? If I look back on my childhood years I didn't do much apart from school and piano, and I haven't come to regret it, and I don't see myself coming to regret it in the future either, even if I'm not going to be a soloist. Unless they become injured (and sometimes even if they do, like my mum with gymnastics), I don't think they will come to regret it, if they're there voluntarily. All the kids in my rink that are that much time absolutely love it, and it's their choice to spend all that time on the ice —it's not like it's cheap, easy, or gives a lot of job opportunities :laugh:

It's hard, but it's rewarding.

You also learn a lot about time management, about effort. You build character.
...I don't find it sad at all? It also speaks for the effort the family puts in... I don't know. I just find it a really surprising assumption for a skating forum!

...but that's also going off topic so sorry about that as well :')

concorde · Jan 26, 2018

treesprite said:
I think this might be true here. We have several FS and "open FS" sessions 7 days a week, in morning, after school, and in the early evening, and some are at times most kids are in school, so then the home schooled kids are skating. Some of the FS sessions are full and end up with wait lists. On top of that, a lot of the younger ones (juv and below) also practice in public sessions between the after school and evening FS sessions, so they are on the ice pretty much from 3:45 to 8:00, and some probably also in the morning before school. At least 10 of them also skate during the Tuesday public that goes until 10pm. They don't do anything outside of school and skating, which is actually kind of sad and they will probably regret not knowing anything when they have their own kids (sorry, going off topic).

Oops. I think you misunderstood my "balanced" comment. I meant "balanced" in terms of MIF/FS levels, not extracurricular activities.

VegMom · Jan 26, 2018

I wouldn’t assume one sheet of ice would result in more balanced skaters. Id actually assume one sheet created more recreational skaters and that the more competitive skaters would go where there’s the most ice time. But then I think it’s more about coaches and rink culture than anything else.

In regards to the other kind of balance I noticed my kiddo was choosing skating over birthday parties. I asked around and learned other skaters skipped parties too. I decided I won’t let him skip out on parties just to practice. If it’s a competition that’s different.

I also noticed it’s tricky to tell which kids like it and which are being forced by their parents. The passionate ones who love it are easy to spot but the ones who just like it behave similarly to the ones who are being forced. There’s one kid I know who would rather not do figure skating but is coerced to do it. I don’t really understand that. If I were going to “force” my kid to do a sport I would choose a less expensive sport.

AndreaRu · Jan 26, 2018

VegMom said:
I wouldn’t assume one sheet of ice would result in more balanced skaters. Id actually assume one sheet created more recreational skaters and that the more competitive skaters would go where there’s the most ice time. But then I think it’s more about coaches and rink culture than anything else.

I don't think that having your moves and freestyle tests more in sync with each other necessarily means you are only a recreational skater. After all, look at the 3rd place juvenile at nationals. I'm not surprised that she's from Illinois. It's just the norm for parts of this region not to do all your moves tests in advance. Test sessions are difficult to find and tend to fill up with home club members before outsiders can register. Many kids are working on multiple tests at the same time. My daughter knew and had been working on intermediate moves long before she passed juvenile moves. Getting into test sessions is very intense. If you register with another club, then you get waitlisted, there's no guarantee that your child's coach's other students will get in, so you may end up paying more. Many are during the week so you have to take them out of school. It's just a logistics issue in this region.

concorde · Jan 26, 2018

#2 and #6 Are from Northern Virginia (Washington FSC). The rinks in the area have lots of available FS ice so it is not surprising to me that #2 has completed her Senior MIF and #6 has complete her Junior MIF.

But WFSC has lots of skaters so you know that if you want a particular test session, sign up early.

jf12 · Jan 26, 2018

There’s also lots of variation within the same club or the same coach. 2 kids who might compete at juv regionals might be 11, but the one who started when they were 6 will have the chance to get all the moves done, while the one who started when they were 8 would not have had time. There’s lots of kids who compete at Juvenile who haven’t been skating all that long.

treesprite · Jan 26, 2018

concorde said:
Oops. I think you misunderstood my "balanced" comment. I meant "balanced" in terms of MIF/FS levels, not extracurricular activities.

Ha. What I said had nothing at all to do with your comment. LOL.

cl2 · Jan 26, 2018

jf12 said:
There’s also lots of variation within the same club or the same coach. 2 kids who might compete at juv regionals might be 11, but the one who started when they were 6 will have the chance to get all the moves done, while the one who started when they were 8 would not have had time. There’s lots of kids who compete at Juvenile who haven’t been skating all that long.

And then there are those coaches who regard MIF tests as a mere formality (or nuisance, depending on how you look at it), and develop their students' skating skills through a large repertoire of exercises separately from the test's limited number of set patterns.

VegMom · Jan 27, 2018

AndreaRu said:
I don't think that having your moves and freestyle tests more in sync with each other necessarily means you are only a recreational skater.

That was not my assumption. I was talking about what one sheet of ice might produce vs two sheets.

treesprite · Jan 27, 2018

VegMom said:
That was not my assumption. I was talking about what one sheet of ice might produce vs two sheets.

Rinks with more sheets mean more freestyle sessions, so more time to practice, so skaters don't feel like they have to sacrifice practicing on freestyle to have enough time to work on MIF (or vv). Almost all the FS here have a couple of sessions back to back, with a large number of skaters always doing 2 at a time, so they can still practice elements, do multiple program run-throughts, and still have plenty of time for MIF practice. Our sister rink (also under public parks) has only only 1 sheet, resulting in only a small fraction of the number of freestyle skaters, because there are only a few FS sessions; the ones who have parents willing to drive them, end up coming here instead of the rink in their neighborhood. Also, that other rink has a focus on ISI, while my rink has a focus on USFS (however, WISA originated from the sister rink, before it moved to it's current location due mostly to not having enough ice time at a rink with only one sheet; the rink it moved to has 2 sheets, hence more practice time for WISA and FS).

somelikeitpink · Jan 27, 2018

Can I just clarify, by sheets you mean more than one ice rink within the club?

concorde · Jan 27, 2018

To the best of my knowledge, Philadelphia Human Society & Skating Club has one only one rink (which it owns) and that rink has only one sheet of ice. From reading their bulletin board, members essentially get unlimited use of that facility for a "nominal" membership fee which includes unlimited ice time. My guess is that members there probably only want to use that skating facility since they have essentially pre-paid for it. If we lived in the area, I would seriously consider joining it since the club membership looks to be a good deal and that rink has produced some great skaters - I believe that is Scott Hamilton's "home" rink. Skaters there tend to have "balanced" MIF/FS.

Washington Figure Skating Club includes about 8 affiliated rinks (not owned by WFSC) and most of those rinks include multiple sheets of ice (most have at least 2 sheet, so hockey can be on one and figure skating can be on the other). Membership to that club includes the right to take test but no ice time is included in the membership. With that many rinks in the metro area, freestyle ice tends to be available at any given time but you have to drive to the rink offering it and pay the entrance fee. Hence, there is no cost benefit to stay at one rink. NOTE: Some of these rink do offer unlimited monthly ice time but that deal is through the rink, not WFSC. WFSC skaters tend to plow through MIF as quickly as possible.

Ic3Rabbit · Jan 27, 2018

concorde said:
To the best of my knowledge, Philadelphia Human Society & Skating Club has one only one rink (which it owns) and that rink has only one sheet of ice. From reading their bulletin board, members essentially get unlimited use of that facility for a "nominal" membership fee which includes unlimited ice time. My guess is that members there probably only want to use that skating facility since they have essentially pre-paid for it. If we lived in the area, I would seriously consider joining it since the club membership looks to be a good deal and that rink has produced some great skaters - I believe that is Scott Hamilton's "home" rink. Skaters there tend to have "balanced" MIF/FS.

American Ice Dancer Brent Bommentre yes. Scott Hamilton, not that I am aware, he was mostly in Ohio and now he lives in TN and has rinks there.

concorde · Jan 27, 2018

Ic3Rabbit said:
American Ice Dancer Brent Bommentre yes. Scott Hamilton, not that I am aware, he was mostly in Ohio and now he lives in TN and has rinks there.

You piqued my interest so I looked the club up on Wikipedia. Very interesting - the Philadelphia Skating Cub and Human Society is the oldest figure skating club in the USA. "Notable skaters who have represented the club over the years include Dick Button and Scott Hamilton."

Ic3Rabbit · Jan 27, 2018

concorde said:
You piqued my interest so I looked the club up on Wikipedia. Very interesting - the Philadelphia Skating Cub and Human Society is the oldest figure skating club in the USA. "Notable skaters who have represented the club over the years include Dick Button and Scott Hamilton."

Interesting that he actually represented them, Scott that is. I knew about Dick and Brent and I think his partner Kim Navarro did too even though she wasn't from there.

I know Scott represented and trained in Colorado for a time.

sandraskates · Jan 27, 2018

Ic3Rabbit said:
Interesting that he actually represented them, Scott that is. I knew about Dick and Brent and I think his partner Kim Navarro did too even though she wasn't from there.

I know Scott represented and trained in Colorado for a time.

Kim Navarro represented the Santa Rosa Figure Skating Club. Her mom taught there for many years too.

Should FS tests decide comp level?

chiyung

VegMom

concorde

treesprite

Mussique

concorde

VegMom

AndreaRu

concorde

jf12

treesprite

cl2

VegMom

treesprite

somelikeitpink

concorde

Ic3Rabbit

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concorde

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

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