Medvedeva vs Zagitova (and backloading)

Arwen17 · Feb 14, 2018

So how does Eteri deal with the Medvedeva vs Zagitova issue? She's the coach for both, so technically she could design a program that could guarantee that one or the other would win Gold. I guess I'm asking is how does she avoid playing favorites when she's the coach of both? It's pretty much assumed if both girls skate the way they've been skating that one will get Gold and the other Silver. The way Eteri designs their programs could decide who gets gold and who gets silver since they're both so talented.

Medvedeva has the greater artistry. Zagitova has far less artistry, but she's a little stronger than Medvedeva in the jumps. Does Eteri backload Zagitova's programs to make up for her lack of artistry? Why doesn't she backload Medvedeva's programs too since that's supposed to collect the most points? Is Medvedeva physically incapable of backloading ALL jumps like Zagitova or what?
What's going on here? Why is Zagitova backloaded when Medvedeva is not? They have the same coach.

Personally, I really want Medvedeva to win since she has the "full package": artistry and the jumps. But I feel like Zagitova will win again simply because she is backloaded, despite being much weaker in artistry.

I like both girls, but I think Zagitova needs more time to develop her artistry before she wins Gold.

Mathman · Feb 14, 2018

I think Eteri has done a stellar job of designing programs that show off the strengths of both of her proteges. Zhenya is her heart of hearts, so it is reported, but the coaching team has given Alina everything she needs for a challenge for the gold medal.

Grin · Feb 14, 2018

Med can't do 0/7. Btw, 0/7 is a standart Eteri's layout. Only Med and Tarakanova don't do it.

chopinskate · Feb 14, 2018

Both of them are merely adequate technicians and artists. However, I think Medvedeva muscles her jumps a lot more. She'd probably get tired far more quickly in the second half.

MiRé · Feb 14, 2018

Med also doesn't have solid 3Lz, hence why she only puts 1 in the FS. She really should be getting e instead of !, but unfortunately the judges are blind. Technically, Alina is way ahead of Med and even if Med does backload her jumps, she probably cannot come close to Alina, especially now that Alina is receiving similar PCS as Med. My guess is Eteri relied on judges to score Med higher on PCS to be on par with Alina's possible score, but that cushion is fading rather quickly.

Nikidom · Feb 14, 2018

Grin said:
Med can't do 0/7. Btw, 0/7 is a standart Eteri's layout. Only Med and Tarakanova don't do it.

correct. Previous Med's program was backloaded as well, but it is not possible for her this season.

Nikidom · Feb 14, 2018

Arwen17 said:
Medvedeva has the greater artistry. Zagitova has far less artistry, but she's a little stronger than Medvedeva in the jumps.

Personally, I really want Medvedeva to win since she has the "full package": artistry and the jumps. But I feel like Zagitova will win again simply because she is backloaded, despite being much weaker in artistry.

I like both girls, but I think Zagitova needs more time to develop her artistry before she wins Gold.

Completely don't agree with you, they have way different programs, Med mostly play with her face and pantomima, but in Ballet programs it is prohibited,so Alina work more with hands, edges, footsteps, spins, transitions. And all this components looks little bit more confident with Alina i guess to everyone.

Imagine · Feb 14, 2018

Random question...but why don’t the men do the same thing instead of falling on so many quads?

Lester · Feb 14, 2018

Imagine said:
Random question...but why don’t the men do the same thing instead of falling on so many quads?

I think they might start falling on triples then

PP

I suppose quads have still a greater BV (don't know the points table by heart) and then they are more of a wow factor.

ancientpeas · Feb 14, 2018

We really need to stop blaming the skaters for doing what they need to do to get the marks and start taking on the IJS if we have a problem with backloading or frontloading.

It's like blaming the person serving you the burger for the price increase. It wasn't their decision and it changes nothing.

lavenderblossom · Feb 14, 2018

Imagine said:
Random question...but why don’t the men do the same thing instead of falling on so many quads?

topic:
:think: Lots of the men do 3/5, with the first 3 being quads and the triples backloaded. So in a way they do it already. I think a fully backloaded program without any triples would still lose to one with quads, because quads are worth so many points and backloading can't make up that gap in TES even with backloaded 3As. So it's better to do the quads in the first half and risk falling than not to risk and just do triples.
I would like to see a man try a 0/7 layout with just triples up to 3A though, would be interesting to see how it would score

I think a fully backloaded program with quads is too difficult/tiring.

Nikidom · Feb 14, 2018

lavenderblossom said:
I would like to see a man try a 0/7 layout with just triples up to 3A though, would be interesting to see how it would score I think a fully backloaded program with quads is too difficult/tiring.

i guess it is too risky for men to do 0/7 even with triples, if they fall it will be mess, not so much time to prepare next jumps like they use to.

kenboy123 · Feb 14, 2018

Slightly off topic, but I want to rant...

I honestly think backloading is horrible and is killing the artistry of figure skating... But, the system makes it so that people can take advantage of it...since one of them will win, I prefer Medvedeva because while she backloads, she does not nearly does it to the same extent as Zagitova... I personally think that a rule should be made that requires the skaters to do jumps in the first half and also a rule where only a certain amount of jumps gets the 10%...this is to avoid people abusing the system....

Oh and how does she avoid playing favorites, the same way you avoid playing favourites among your children...

j00mla · Feb 14, 2018

Arwen17 said:
She's the coach for both, so technically she could design a program that could guarantee that one or the other would win Gold.

but she can't guarantee judging, can't prevent injuries and accidental mistakes so the best strategy is make both girls as strong as it's possible to get higher chances for medals

Spirals for Miles · Feb 14, 2018

kenboy123 said:
Slightly off topic, but I want to rant...

I honestly think backloading is horrible and is killing the artistry of figure skating... But, the system makes it so that people can take advantage of it...since one of them will win, I prefer Medvedeva because while she backloads, she does not nearly does it to the same extent as Zagitova... I personally think that a rule should be made that requires the skaters to do jumps in the first half and also a rule where only a certain amount of jumps gets the 10%...this is to avoid people abusing the system....

Oh and how does she avoid playing favorites, the same way you avoid playing favourites among your children...

since when does backloading mean that there's no artistry? I find more artistry in these programs. it's not all about what people who miss the old style want. why should there be so many rules as to when you can jump?

ancientpeas · Feb 14, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
since when does backloading mean that there's no artistry? I find more artistry in these programs. it's not all about what people who miss the old style want. why should there be so many rules as to when you can jump?

I don't think it's that anyone is saying there is no artistry but rather that their impression of the program is lessened by what seems to be a lack of balance and a calculated attempt to get points rather than to create a beautiful program.

I, personally, would prefer Evgenia to win because I prefer her performance and program to Zagitova. I prefer the approach that Eteri's camp took to Evgenia's program. That does not mean I think Alina's program is bad. I just wish it felt more organic and less like a mathematical equation. But that is just my opinion. Obviously others feel differently.

Grin · Feb 14, 2018

ancientpeas said:
I don't think it's that anyone is saying there is no artistry but rather that their impression of the program is lessened by what seems to be a lack of balance and a calculated attempt to get points rather than to create a beautiful program.

I, personally, would prefer Evgenia to win because I prefer her performance and program to Zagitova. I prefer the approach that Eteri's camp took to Evgenia's program. That does not mean I think Alina's program is bad. I just wish it felt more organic and less like a mathematical equation. But that is just my opinion. Obviously others feel differently.

Sometimes 0/7 program doesn't feel like heavily backloaded. I depends on choreo and skater alot thou
https://youtu.be/-QFV79090LI

schizoanalyst · Feb 14, 2018

Grin said:
Sometimes 0/7 program doesn't feel like heavily backloaded. I depends on choreo and skater alot thou
https://youtu.be/-QFV79090LI

I actually find this whole program a little boring and I don't think it takes advantage of a lot of her talents (I prefer her short) - but it does illustrate the main difference of why the backloading for her works better than Zagitova. The main difference between her and Zagitova is, Kostornaia knows how to actually finish a movement, complete a turn, extend the limb to characterize a piece of music. It makes a *world* of difference while you're waiting for the jumps. Zagitova kinda flails around for 2 minutes doing an OK step sequence and then some flurried movements - interrupted with some quite good but not great spins. Kostornaia should hold lessons for the entire Eteri camp on this. To be honest, she should hold lessons for a lot of elite skaters too but that's another story lol.

Shayuki · Feb 14, 2018

There's nothing wrong with 0-7 backloading, none of the current seniors just can take advantage of it well enough(Not even Zagitova, in spite of what her PCS might tell you).

Shcherbakova's is my favorite by far, of course, but Kostornaia's is quite enjoyable to watch also even though her program choreo(Both programs) is of lower caliber than that of most girls on the group. With better programs next season I think that the potential is immense, however.

Unlike many seem to, I personally vastly prefer Zagitova's SP over her FS. Even though she's improved upon it lately(As should be expected), the first half still is rather empty and the rest is pretty cheap(No choreo to speak of, simply timing jumps).

kenboy123 · Feb 14, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
since when does backloading mean that there's no artistry? I find more artistry in these programs. it's not all about what people who miss the old style want. why should there be so many rules as to when you can jump?

Because people like Zagitova are taking advantage/abusing the system...and if you want to go with the idea that there should be less rules to when you can jump, then don't even bother having the 10% bonus because that also in a way limits when people can or should jump..

Well..that's you...i personally see no artistry in any of Zagitova's programs...just a whole bunch of skating around and then jump jump jump jump...if you called that artistry, then that's cool...

Medvedeva vs Zagitova (and backloading)

Arwen17

Mathman

Grin

chopinskate

MiRé

Match Penalty

Nikidom

Nikidom

Imagine

Lester

Piper and Paul are made of magic dust and unicorns

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW

lavenderblossom

Nikidom

kenboy123

j00mla

Made in USSR

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW

Grin

schizoanalyst

Shayuki

kenboy123

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