Artistic comp as new part of Broadmoor Open

4everchan · Apr 23, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
True but about a whole extra minute of time which has to be a choreographer’s dream.

I like the layout and would love to see something like this replace the FS in regular competitions which I often find feels too long.

i don't know... i like to see a skater showing their proficiency with all kinds of jumps... so for that, there is a need of 4 or 5 jumping passes... I woudln't mind reducing the number of jumping passes to feature each kind of jump once but 3 jumps only in a regular LP? I don't know... Only then if the skater had to include the other 3 jumps in their SP but then... how would that work?

I also have reservation on how these things will be scored considering judges have already a hard time getting PCS right, according to this forum

el henry · Apr 23, 2018

4everchan said:
i don't know... i like to see a skater showing their proficiency with all kinds of jumps... so for that, there is a need of 4 or 5 jumping passes... I woudln't mind reducing the number of jumping passes to feature each kind of jump once but 3 jumps only in a regular LP? I don't know... Only then if the skater had to include the other 3 jumps in their SP but then... how would that work?

I also have reservation on how these things will be scored considering judges have already a hard time getting PCS right, according to this forum

But maybe we won't have the "multiple quad bonus" for program components score. At least I hope not

It would be nice to see at least one comp without that bonus applied:agree:

4everchan · Apr 24, 2018

el henry said:
But maybe we won't have the "multiple quad bonus" for program components score. At least I hope not It would be nice to see at least one comp without that bonus applied:agree:

you tell me about it... i believed Patrick Chan had the best SP in Helsinki but others got the second quad bonus on PCS... and though their second quad may not have been as good as Patrick's first quad, they still managed to be several points ahead...

So... i am not one that needs convincing. I believe that not only the capped PCS (at 100) should be factored by 1.2 (to 120) to match potential TES advantages and allow for skaters to gain significantly higher than others in PCS when they deserve it.... but I also would implement a new rule: 1 fall and the PCS for performance, execution and interpretation of music is capped to 9 maximum....every fall is a disruptive fall and i prefer that a skater doubles a triple or triples a quad to keep on his feet rather than falls on a leaning tower of Pisa quad...

but yeah.... I said it a couple times... nobody cared... so i just stopped preaching because really, why bother?

karne · Apr 24, 2018

frida80 said:
This has Jason written all over this. I hope he participates because I can't wait to see him win this.

I know, it's been the one name on my mind since it was announced. If he doesn't compete, my disappointment is going to be extreme :laugh:

But, like the Aerial Challenge wanted to have in the "good jumpers" to promote it, I imagine they'll want to be getting in the "good artists" for this one. So I'm sure someone has already begged Jason to do it.

So they must be doubles... *still with a faintly hopeful expression*

surimi · Apr 24, 2018

Sounds interesting. I definitely would be one to support the emergence of artistic programs, although I'd also want to keep the programs as they are now (as they are well-balanced IMO). It would be a great opportunity for skaters who aren't able to jump due to age or injuries anymore, and I'm sure there would be many fans who would go see their favorites in these events. Looking forward to reading how the idea was received.

gkelly · Apr 24, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
I like the layout and would love to see something like this replace the FS in regular competitions which I often find feels too long.

I wouldn't, in what the Russians call "big sport."

I think there is a place for athletes showing off the maximum technical/athletic content they can do in one program, covering all significant aspects of technique.

For Olympic-track sport, I'd want to see something like the well-balanced program as the most important determinant of the results.

Some excellent athletes who are also excellent performers can combine maximum tech content and great artistry in the same program. Those would be the medal contenders, and the sport competition can also include some highly artistic performances.

The other phase(s) of competition could focus on specific kinds of technical skills and/or on using some of those skills for artistic purposes, with combined results of both/all phases determining the best all-around skater of the event.

Or maybe let just the well-balanced program be a one-phase competition for best combination of technique and technical content, athleticism, and artistry, and then have separate events with separate medals to focus on jumps, spins, artistry, edge skills, etc.

Depending on how the events were structured, skaters who can excel in technical content when they don't have to worry about artistry and who can also excel in artistry when they don't have to worry about pushing their personal athletic/technical envelope could medal in different events or even in combined events, although the ones who can put it all together in one program should have an advantage.

However, what I would like to see is a separate competition track that focuses on using skating technique for artistic purposes. It probably would not be included in the Olympics, but it could have its own world championship and other international, national, and grassroots competitions through which skaters can build their skills and (at the higher levels) reputation and fan base. Some skaters would go into this track instead of high-level well-balanced freeskating if this plays to their strengths better. Others would move from top-level well-balanced freeskating into artistic skating as they get older (or injured) and they can't maintain the same level of jump content.

Well, a girl can dream.

4everchan said:
I also have reservation on how these things will be scored considering judges have already a hard time getting PCS right, according to this forum

I hate the idea that PCS can be classified as "wrong" vs. "right." The whole point of judging qualitative skills and complex combinations of skills is to build a body of experienced experts who can then each apply their own judgment to each performance and translate those judgments into scores according to the scoring guidelines. They will often disagree with each other. That doesn't make any of them right or wrong -- the consensus of the official panel will determine the official results.

Fans who are as knowledgeable as judges, or more knowledgeable than most judges about music/off-ice dance/performing arts in general, can form their own judgments as to how they think each component for each performance should be scored. They can disagree with some or all of the official panel of judges, and disagree with each other.

Fans who are less knowledgeable can also have valid opinions about how they believe performances should be scored according to their understanding of the standards.

All of which can make for great discussion. Again, that doesn't mean that some knowledgeable fans are "right" and any other fans who disagree are "wrong," or that these fans are right and therefore judges they disagree with are wrong, any more than it means judges are "right" and fans are "wrong."

At most, there might be a consensus that some opinions or ways of using numbers are "better" or "worse" according to accepted standards and rules/guidelines within the sport.

With an artistically focused competition, artistic criteria would hold more priority than technical/athletic ones. But as long as it's a skating competition, should there be ways of writing the rules and guidelines to ensure that what's most highly rewarded is use of skating skills in the service of artistic purpose, and not just use of the body for those purposes while on the ice wearing skates but with the actual skating being secondary?

4everchan · Apr 24, 2018

gkelly said:
With an artistically focused competition, artistic criteria would hold more priority than technical/athletic ones. But as long as it's a skating competition, should there be ways of writing the rules and guidelines to ensure that what's most highly rewarded is use of skating skills in the service of artistic purpose, and not just use of the body for those purposes while on the ice wearing skates but with the actual skating being secondary?

there you go... that's exactly my point... i have often said that when it comes to PCS, i leave it to the judges because they were at the competition and I wasn't.... a whole lot has to do on how the performance "feels" live... it's very different ..... but i can't help remembering the pro-am competitions of the 90s: some of them had artistic programs but you would see the girl with a triple lutz win them

not necessarily because she had the most artistic program...

furthermore : what is artistic skating? because that's unclear to me

I see it as sport first and foremost....

and how does one judge that then?

concorde · Apr 24, 2018

Tavi... said:
Also of note:

The regular part of the Broadmoor Open for juniors and seniors will serve as a test competition for the new IJS -5 to +5 scoring & the new scale of values. It will also feature the new shorter FS times with the 7-jump limit.

Interesting - have changes to the scale of values been approved?

The" jump on it" camp includes a parent's track and during this, we were told that the -5 to +5 had be approved . . . But the associated scoring details (scale of scoring) had not yet been ironed out. I specifically asked that question.

The bullet points have been released but there are still a lot of questions on how these should be interpreted. But in essence there are 3 main bullets that have to be acheived and only if all three are acheived, than the extra bullets be earned (+4 and +5). If a skater only acheives 2 of these main bullet points but hit 3 additional ones, they are "capped" at +3.

They did say that the new GOEs would be used at all Regionals.

StitchMonkey · Apr 24, 2018

ice coverage said:
The three years of Aerial Challenge (which has been sorta analogous as part of Broadmoor Open) unfortunately never have had international entries.

I am about 99% sure that Roman Ponsart entered and won a pair of blades during the second year of the jump event. So I do think they have had one international entry. I do recall the first year's issues though.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 24, 2018

concorde said:
But in essence there are 3 main bullets that have to be acheived and only if all three are acheived, than the extra bullets be earned (+4 and +5). If a skater only acheives 2 of these main bullet points but hit 3 additional ones, they are "capped" at +3.

This sounds like a terrible idea on first look. I’m sure there is a logical and sound reasoning behind it but weighting 3 specific bullets just doesn’t sit well with me. Plus the whole +5 thing comes across as creating GOE inflation. Hmm... I’ll have to sit on this a while before I can truly get behind it or against it. Personally I’d have rather seen GOE reduced and not expanded.

Thanks for sharing this information with us. BTW: I’m not trying to shoot the messenger so please don’t take it that way

shine · Apr 24, 2018

elbkup said:
It may even be incentive for jumpers (Nathan, Vincent, et al) to enter in an effort to up their artistic game...

I can see Nathan do very well in this. But I doubt he would do it.

ice coverage · Apr 24, 2018

StitchMonkey said:
I am about 99% sure that Roman Ponsart entered and won a pair of blades during the second year of the jump event. So I do think they have had one international entry. I do recall the first year's issues though.

Romain was not allowed to compete in Aerial Challenge.

What Romain won was Broadmoor Open jumps-only comp -- which is something different from Aerial Challenge and existed long before Aerial Challenge.

(Broadmoor Open also has spins-only comps.)

One way to qualify for Aerial Challenge is to do well in Broadmoor Open jumps-only comp.

Excerpt from IN's article re 2016 Aerial Challenge:

The event really got underway Thursday night with the Broadmoor Open jumps event, which has taken place for many years. In four events (junior ladies, junior men, senior ladies and senior men), the top three finishers qualified for the Aerial Challenge on Friday. Carly Berrios and Romain Ponsart won the senior events, but since the Aerial Challenge is not yet sanctioned by the International Skating Union, it is only open to U.S. skaters. Ponsart, who is French, wasn't able to compete.

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2016/06/27/186509514/krasnozhon-kim-fly-high-at-aerial-challenge

Re-reading this article, I see that I misremembered the exact nature of the issue re international skaters and Aerial Challenge -- which IN reporter Sarah Brannen said is lack of sanctioning by the ISU.

For the Broadmoor Open jumps comp, Romain did win the blades :agree: as well as $500.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BHBcowvAptZ/

concorde · Apr 24, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
This sounds like a terrible idea on first look. I’m sure there is a logical and sound reasoning behind it but weighting 3 specific bullets just doesn’t sit well with me. Plus the whole +5 thing comes across as creating GOE inflation. Hmm... I’ll have to sit on this a while before I can truly get behind it or against it. Personally I’d have rather seen GOE reduced and not expanded.

Thanks for sharing this information with us. BTW: I’m not trying to shoot the messenger so please don’t take it that way

Here are the 3 jump bullets that a skater would have to achieve to even be eligible to earn top marks (+4 or +5):
- very good height and very good distance (all jumps in the sequence)
- very good take-off and landing
- effortless throughout.

Without all 3 of those, a jump is capped at "+3"

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 24, 2018

concorde said:
Here are the 3 jump bullets that a skater would have to achieve to even be eligible to earn top marks (+4 or +5):
- very good height and very good distance (all jumps in the sequence)
- very good take-off and landing
- effortless throughout.

Without all 3 of those, a jump is capped at "+3"

I wonder if this will encourage more 3t-3t combos. :think:

I’m not a math person but I’d love to read a comparison scale of a clean (+4 or +5) 3t-3t versus a +1 or +2 3z-3t or 3z-3lo. I’d imagine the ISU explored this heavily and has a complete understanding of how this scales into things before putting forth a proposal.

Shall we conclude the USFSA is behind it or just a willing guinea pig?

concorde · Apr 24, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
I wonder if this will encourage more 3t-3t combos. :think:

I’m not a math person but I’d love to read a comparison scale of a clean (+4 or +5) 3t-3t versus a +1 or +2 3z-3t or 3z-3lo. I’d imagine the ISU explored this heavily and has a complete understanding of how this scales into things before putting forth a proposal.

Shall we conclude the USFSA is behind it or just a willing guinea pig?

It appears that the ISU prefers big jumps to "spins in the air" and this scoring system reflects this.

The Canadian ladies seems to be the winners (BIG jumps). American ladies are more in the middle.

One of the lesser bullets is body position which includes varied arm positions. To maximize GOEs, a skater needs to have varied arm positions throughout the program. All tanos will no longer maximize points.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 24, 2018

concorde said:
All tanos will no longer maximize points.

True...but they never did in the first place. They’ve always had to benefit the jump just like all other bullets. Whether or not this was applied correctly is another issue altogether and one that this change won’t address...in fact it may make it worse. I’m far more concerned with the ballooning effect we’ll see from giving the judges an even wider scale. YMMV but I saw some pretty awful judging last season in terms of remaining consistent from one skater to the next. Giving broader power to inflate and deflate...well..that’s probably going to make that aspect of judging even worse.

Probably going off topic here though.

gkelly · Apr 24, 2018

Some of those proposals have been suggested by various posters here in the past year or two.

andromache · Apr 24, 2018

This seems like a super fun competition.

elbkup · Apr 25, 2018

shine said:
I can see Nathan do very well in this. But I doubt he would do it.

Nathan probably would do well. I love Nemesis!! Maybe he will do this after all...

yyyskate · Apr 25, 2018

Cannot wait to see Nathan do this!!! :yahoo:

:luv17:

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Artistic comp as new part of Broadmoor Open

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