Artistry | Golden Skate

Artistry

Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I know there are different people with different opinions on artistry, especially in the ladies' singles event, so feel free to discuss your opinions here.

I personally would like to know how we can promote the artistry that Giada Russo and Karen Chen show in their SPs. I feel ladies' singles suffers from a lot of things. Programmes crammed with transitions are rewarded, which leaves comparatively little space for artistic expression.

Something comes from the nature of the sport itself, because a program with more flow shows more skill, which inevitably removes certain genres like Hip-Hop (though Daisuke Takahashi had a different opinion) from the equation, but the SPs of Russo and Chen aren't Hip-Hop.

Is it also the case that the judges are too set in their ways? I remember in an interview Yuna said she was afraid to use traditional Korean music for fear of how it would be received by the Western audience and judges. Is it a "whatever works better" mentality that causes stagnation?

Similar problem for the two events separated by gender, too? Fluidity for women, strength for men?
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Currently, there's not many ladies I'd consider to be excellent when it comes to "artistry" how I see it. In fact, 0 of the senior competitors here would meet all my criteria. Zagitova and Medvedeva come closest, which is an odd place to be but Zagitova's really improved during 2018.

Giada Russo is a really odd choice because she was quite a borefest and I don't consider Karen Chen to be some great artist - She has nice spins but not a whole lot apart from that.
 

VenusHalley

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2018
I heard one commentator use the word "judge-friendly" about some classic non-daring program.

I wish more variety was encouraged. Imho, a teenager can skate and dance better to some "classy" pop piece, which they will relate to... that mime and overact to a warhorse/classical music piece (of course... it depends. That Candyman skate was horrible. So are many warhorse skates).

I would like to see a hip-hop skate. That could take the sport in interesting direction.

How great it would be to have event with classical music, disco, hip-hop, rock, metal, traditional music... maybe folklore number...
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
For me, Giada, Kostner and Alina were the most artistic skaters of the entire field. :clap:

Satoko's artistry is similar, but I find hers very conservative and predictable, therefore less artistic.

There is the usual "artistry", acting, miming, portraying emotions, but I prefer the subtler artistry conveyed in choreography and body movements.

I feel so frustrated with all the comments about how Alina lacks Evgenia's artistry...it's comparing apples and oranges.

While I agree that Med's acting is pretty good, up there with Ashley's or Kaetlyn's, that is ONE type of artistry.

There is another type of artistry, of expression, eg P/C in Moonlight Sonata, where body movements rather than facial expressions and miming tell a story that is more abstract.

Alina is not at that level of P/C but she has a similar artistry in the details of her body movements, especially her arms, which have their own choreography, unlike other skaters with the exception of Kostner's arms. They are all integrated into her stsq or transitions. In the SP, her movements were frenetic and stressful, in the FS, they were coquettish, mesmerizing and dynamic.

The arms and the torso tell a story for both Kostner and Alina.

Kostornaia reminds me so much of a technically stronger Kostner, there's that same artistry right there - stoic faced but the body and limbs express everything.

Med's the more immediately obvious performance artistry, while Alina's more abstract and difficult since it affects balance and uses more energy.

Alina does have artistry, it is a different genre from most of her rivals.

I think Med is a great performer but she is also a poor dancer, a bit uncoordinated, gangly and spindly.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
There is another type of artistry, of expression, eg P/C in Moonlight Sonata, where body movements rather than facial expressions and miming tell a story that is more abstract.

Alina is not at that level of P/C but she has a similar artistry in the details of her body movements, especially her arms, which have their own choreography, unlike other skaters with the exception of Kostner's arms. They are all integrated into her stsq or transitions. In the SP, her movements were frenetic and stressful, in the FS, they were coquettish, mesmerizing and dynamic.

Please tell me you did not, with a straight face, put Zagitova in the same artistic breath with Kostner and Papadakis/Cizeron.:eeking:
 

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
Out of the ladies, I would say that Kostner has the most artistry. Her short program at Euros showed her timing to the music and her ability to express the wistful longing in Ne Me Quitte Pas. That step sequence showed mastery over the blade, brilliant phrasing, and most of all her intention behind each move.
 

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
I also agree that Giada Russo's step sequence in the short program is one of the best examples I've seen of modern dance. She really just needs clean triple jumps.
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Please tell me you did not, with a straight face, put Zagitova in the same artistic breath with Kostner and Papadakis/Cizeron.:eeking:

Sure did! She had to get those level 4s with packing maximum no. of turns, transitions, steps, etc., otherwise, given time to stretch her range, she can do a Kostner, I guarantee it. :agree2:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I honestly have no clue how to aproach this topic. With a sport like this there are unlimited ways to be perceived as an artist. One person’s artistic vision could be another’s nightmare. I actually think there is too much emphasis on artistry in the scoring today. I’d rather combine CH/INT into one component and call it artistic impression. The first words I’d include in its description would be “free of personal preference” does the program convey a recognizable and unique artistic vision.

I seriously want to disband the Gala and turn it into a separately judged event with separate prize money and medals.
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Take arms for example.

Kaori, Kaetlyn, Mirai all have quite rigid straight arms, except when they clearly bend them. They look like "exercise" arms, eg arms when you do jumping jacks, gymnastics.

Patrick and Max for example, have this type of arms.

Ice dancers, Kostner, Alina, have flexible arms that take on forms, shapes, angles, movements, down to their fingertips. If you pause at any frame, they make an aesthetic picture.

They don't droop or flail, like Boyang's.

That flirtatious flick of Alina's arms in the mid-point of DQ is incredibly hard to do well if you have rigid arms. Try it.

Among male skaters, Jason, Han Yan and Denis Vasiliev have more flexible arms.

It is an indication that your entire body is capable of those same nuances, capable of both co-ordination and isolation.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Wow, those are some 'interesting' choices there, to put it mildly.

:slink:
Says more about the current state of senior ladies, I guess.

I'd take Gubanova, Kostornaia, Shcherbakova and more artistically over any current senior lady.

Take arms for example.
-
Lengthy post but yes, Alina's arm usage especially in the SP is quite impressive. Probably the best among senior ladies and I'm not sure when she gained that because I didn't notice it earlier in the season. She doesn't quite earn my "divine arms"-grade but she's getting there.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Sure did! She had to get those level 4s with packing maximum no. of turns, transitions, steps, etc., otherwise, given time to stretch her range, she can do a Kostner, I guarantee it. :agree2:

She may in time develop some artistry, but at this point she is a perky, coltish juniorish skater with entirely overblown components who barely acknowledges there is music playing as she skates. I'm not saying she'll never get there, but I don't think the comparison is apt at this point. Plus, unfortunately, there is no impetus for her to develop artistic qualities, as the judges do not reward them.
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
She may in time develop some artistry, but at this point she is a perky, coltish juniorish skater with entirely overblown components who barely acknowledges there is music playing as she skates. I'm not saying she'll never get there, but I don't think the comparison is apt at this point. Plus, unfortunately, there is no impetus for her to develop artistic qualities, as the judges do not reward them.

I respectfully disagree. Both of her SP and DQ music are incredibly difficult to skate to if she doesn't have a good grasp of rhythm, tempo, pace, expression. I'm not the only one who notices, commentators and judges as well.

How many skaters manage to time every jump, every transition to accents in the music of their programs? Maybe for a couple of important combos, but not for every jump, every transition. You can't do this without BOTH technical competence and gifted musicality.

I've also watched her dance practice videos - she is by no means a professional grade dancer but she has what it takes to become one. It's something innate, and endowed, the way Max, strong and hardworking as he is, can't train himself into a Jason.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
I respectfully disagree. Both of her SP and DQ music are incredibly difficult to skate to if she doesn't have a good grasp of rhythm, tempo, pace, expression. I'm not the only one who notices, commentators and judges as well.

How many skaters manage to time every jump, every transition to accents in the music of their programs? Maybe for a couple of important combos, but not for every jump, every transition. You can't do this without BOTH technical competence and gifted musicality.

I've also watched her dance practice videos - she is by no means a professional grade dancer but she has what it takes to become one. It's something innate, and endowed, the way Max, strong and hardworking as he is, can't train himself into a Jason.

We'll have to agree to disagree on her current musical interpretation ability. I find her flailing, incredibly jarring and skating by rote, because someone has told her to throw an arm up here, a leg up there is a transition. But she has no idea how to finish or hold any of the movements (she may do a lot of transitions, but generally they are done badly) to really interpret the music, or, indeed any idea why she should do any of those particular movements to that particular part of the music.

She's just 15, and it shows. Which is not intrinsically a bad thing or anything negative about her as a person or even a skater. It's the judging with which I take issue — well, and a little bit those who argue she's already some kind of spectacular artiste, rather than someone with potential (which I believe she does have).:peace:
 

randomfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Says more about the current state of senior ladies, I guess.

I'd take Gubanova, Kostornaia, Shcherbakova and more artistically over any current senior lady.

Sorry to all the Shcherbakova fans out there, but can we at least see her international debut before we start hyping her? It’s honestly a little baffling to see so many people prop up a skater who hasn’t even been on the JGP yet.
 

alvina9894

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Gubanova and Kostornaia I can see artistry starting to develop.
Scherbakova? She is as artistic as Ashley Wagner with the current level of her SS.
 
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