Short term adjustments for USFS

eriecold · Feb 24, 2018

I know that a younger generation of ladies is coming in the US and that they're starting to copy parts of the Russian model and pushing girls technically from a younger age, however, I couldn't help but notice a couple subtle differences that made an impact in the olys that USFS could adopt in a short term.

1. There was noticeable difference between the skater that competed in Euros and 4CC and the ones that didn't. Soma and Satoko had their chance to bomb out and get that out of their system before giving incredible competitions, Evgenia got her insecurities out and had a chance to compete and consolidate her programs after her injury, Boyang got to increase his PCS scores and get a boost... I understand the problem with logistics and the long trip, but still, Javi and G/G travelled from Eastern Canada to Russia for their events. If location is a problem, I think USFS should demand that ISU make the 4CC tournament more accessible for Americans in Olympic years, and it should require Olympic skaters to compete in it save an injury.

2. Canadian selection criteria includes 2 prior seasons, not one. That would have made the selection criteria in the US a little more interesting in everything except dance.

Any other short term tweaks to suggest?

skatesofgold · Feb 24, 2018

Yeah, I agree about 4CCs. I remember Matt Savoie competed at 4CCs in 2006 and although he medaled, he really struggled with his long program. He ended up doing better at the Olympics. I wonder if it would have helped Bradie if she had competed at 4CCs.

TontoK · Feb 24, 2018

eriecold said:
I know that a younger generation of ladies is coming in the US and that they're starting to copy parts of the Russian model and pushing girls technically from a younger age, however, I couldn't help but notice a couple subtle differences that made an impact in the olys that USFS could adopt in a short term.

1. There was noticeable difference between the skater that competed in Euros and 4CC and the ones that didn't. Soma and Satoko had their chance to bomb out and get that out of their system before giving incredible competitions, Evgenia got her insecurities out and had a chance to compete and consolidate her programs after her injury, Boyang got to increase his PCS scores and get a boost... I understand the problem with logistics and the long trip, but still, Javi and G/G travelled from Eastern Canada to Russia for their events. If location is a problem, I think USFS should demand that ISU make the 4CC tournament more accessible for Americans in Olympic years, and it should require Olympic skaters to compete in it save an injury.

2. Canadian selection criteria includes 2 prior seasons, not one. That would have made the selection criteria in the US a little more interesting in everything except dance.

Any other short term tweaks to suggest?

I'm going from memory here, and perhaps my Canadian friends will chime in...

But Canadian BoW criteria are also more specific. For instance, I think it's not just "GP Series" but something more specific, like "Medaled at one GP series event" "Medaled at two GP series events" Something like that.

bekalc · Feb 24, 2018

People keep talking about BOW but I must point out that Zhou for example
Finished significantly higher than Rippon. I personally think body of work should only be rewarded for significant achievements.

I think more internal competitions would be start.

moonvine · Feb 24, 2018

skatesofgold said:
Yeah, I agree about 4CCs. I remember Matt Savoie competed at 4CCs in 2006 and although he medaled, he really struggled with his long program. He ended up doing better at the Olympics. I wonder if it would have helped Bradie if she had competed at 4CCs.

For her, I think it would have been extremely important to do so. Her world ranking was so low she had to skate first. Even had she skated lights out, she would have been marked lower just because she was first. Of course this is not fair, but it is what it is.

moonvine · Feb 24, 2018

bekalc said:
People keep talking about BOW but I must point out that Zhou for example
Finished significantly higher than Rippon. I personally think body of work should only be rewarded for significant achievements.

I think more internal competitions would be start.

I guess more internal competitions would be ok. But I would not have sent Karen, for example. Her record is so spotty. Ashley is more consistent than that. People say it doesn't matter because no medals or spots for next Worlds were on the line, but there's a lot of handwringing that has occurred with the US not having 3 ladies in the top 10. I'm really worried about the worlds result. Karen was under far less pressure than any other US lady. I bet a lot of casual once every 4 year fans didn't even know she existed until the SP started. She still had a meltdown. I think she's a lovely skater but at this point in my opinion she is not ready for any large international competition. It would be good to find out why in general other countries ladies are not consistently melting down - there is always the exception, like poor Gabby. Do they start them with sports psychologists when they are young? What is the difference?

As far as BOW goes, Adam earned 2 silver medals and the GPF. What did Zhou do internationally on the senior level this season?

eriecold · Feb 24, 2018

TontoK said:
I'm going from memory here, and perhaps my Canadian friends will chime in...

But Canadian BoW criteria are also more specific. For instance, I think it's not just "GP Series" but something more specific, like "Medaled at one GP series event" "Medaled at two GP series events" Something like that.

went from memory too, let me see if I find it

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 24, 2018

Dump the concept of body of work completely and make US Nationals the end all be all competition of the year. Maybe by creating a more cut throat competition with meaningful consequences we’ll see better competitors develop. :think:

moonvine · Feb 24, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Dump the concept of body of work completely and make US Nationals the end all be all competition of the year. Maybe by creating a more cut throat competition with meaningful consequences we’ll see better competitors develop. :think:

I totally disagree.

chuckm · Feb 24, 2018

The problem with 4CC this year is that the competition ended less than two weeks before the start of the Olympics, and practice time for the team event actually began several days before the opening ceremony. It's a long travel time to 4CC, plus the jet lag upon arrival, and there's limited practice time. When the event is over, there's the dilemma of traveling back to the US (more lost practice time and jet lag) or finding a place to stay in Asia with available practice ice (and having the money to pay for it) until the Olympic practice venue is available.

For a newbie like Bradie, that in itself would have been an exhausting experience, and I'm not sure it would have helped her much. She probably would have had to go back the US and then travel again back to Korea, thus losing at least a full week of practice time due to jet lag on both ends of those trips.

I don't know how the ISU could make this any better, other than scheduling 4CC to run concurrently with Euros, and they would never do that, because there might not be enough ISU judges and officials to cover both at the same time. They can't schedule Euros any earlier because of conflicts with European championship events. And the Canadian championships were the week before Euros, so Skate Canada would be horrified to have 4CC the week after their championships.

You could hold 4CC in North America, but then all the Asian nations would complain, and there are a lot more of them than there are NA countries.

louisa05 · Feb 24, 2018

moonvine said:
For her, I think it would have been extremely important to do so. Her world ranking was so low she had to skate first. Even had she skated lights out, she would have been marked lower just because she was first. Of course this is not fair, but it is what it is.

USFSA and the other federations need to demand a scheduling change for this event, though. Ladies event ended on January 26 and the Olympic team event for ladies began on February 11. That is just over two weeks. To expect skaters to travel to Asia and compete, travel home, resume training, then travel to Asia for the Olympics to compete with less than a two week turnaround is not reasonable. These people are human. And you have to wonder who the Asian teams would have sent if their skaters had to travel to the U.S. for it this year with such a short turnaround before the Olympics.

USFSA needs to perhaps consider an earlier Nationals every year, as well, to accommodate it.

Most of the suggestions I've seen for improving U.S skating are not too promising. It is not really a good time to advocate a gymnastics style team camp/selection. Nassar was the worst, but not the only source of athlete abuse at the Karolyi Ranch. Selling that idea to parents of young skaters is not going to be easy.

And the "Russian Methods" are not an answer. I'd really like to know when skaters in Eteri's camp are educated, for one thing. And it's easy to say that they don't need to worry as medals will make them rich. But for every one Zagitova with a gold medal, how many are discarded along the way because they don't reach that level and are left with nothing and likely an inadequate education as well?

I do know that shaming the current U.S. team is not the answer. And I find it a bit disturbing that the shaming from the sports media (a lot of whom only cover skating every four years) is focused on the ladies and not men's or pairs. The men have been allowed to be satisfied with their performances while the women apparently didn't act hysterically upset enough to suit them. Seems rather sexist.

eriecold · Feb 24, 2018

Just for reference, here's the selection criteria from the SC website:

Medalist at the 2016, and/or the 2017 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
Placement at the 2018 Canadian Tire National Figure Skating Championships
Top 10 placement at the 2016 and/or 2017 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
Top 6 placement at the 2016 and/or 2017 ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
Qualifying for the 2015/2016, 2016/2017, and/or 2017/2018 ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final and/or the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final
Other relevant criteria deemed appropriate for selection

Will post other countries as I find them

Shayuki · Feb 24, 2018

Was it really worth it to send Adam Rippon instead of Ross Miner, just so Rippon can finish 10th with clean performances? It's like they went out of their way just to piss Miner's team and fans off. Having much more clear BoW(If you even want to use it) categories(Examples: Was in GPF, top 5 at worlds, medaled in GP event, etc) rather than something totally arbitrary would go a long way towards the skaters feeling like what they are doing actually has some meaning. If Rippon was a medal contender I'd understand, but here it just felt completely arbitrary.

Another thing is that it should be easier for the US skaters to get foreign coaches. If the American coaches don't get the results, the skaters should feel free to seek foreign assistance. It wouldn't be an issue if the actual coaches were good and had solid results like is the case with Russia. I'm mostly talking in the context of the ladies' discipline here. Many of the American ladies seem to have some talent that's never coming to fruition due to lacking coaching.

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 24, 2018

Move US Nationals to the Christmas break (when people are actually home watching TV) and then lobby to bump 4CC up a week or two on the schedule.

moonvine · Feb 24, 2018

louisa05 said:
I do know that shaming the current U.S. team is not the answer. And I find it a bit disturbing that the shaming from the sports media (a lot of whom only cover skating every four years) is focused on the ladies and not men's or pairs. The men have been allowed to be satisfied with their performances while the women apparently didn't act hysterically upset enough to suit them. Seems rather sexist.

I don't think they should be shamed. I think they did the best they could in that moment. The problem is for whatever reason ladies is more prestigious in the US than the other disciplines, and the ladies are expected to do well even though the last OGM was Sarah Hughes in Salt Lake City. Also NBC builds the ladies up to be medal contenders even when they are not, so of course when they do not medal it is seen as a failure. The men are typically not under so much of a microscope (this year with Nathan was different in that respect), for whatever reason ice dance is largely ignored by casual fans even though the US is an ice dance powerhouse, and the last pair I remember being extremely popular in the US was Tai and Randy.

chuckm · Feb 24, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Dump the concept of body of work completely and make US Nationals the end all be all competition of the year. Maybe by creating a more cut throat competition with meaningful consequences we’ll see better competitors develop. :think:

NOT a good idea. The possibility is you'll get a skater who has peaked mid-year and who will sink lower at all competitions from then on. Remember Alaine Chartrand's showstopper performance at Canadian Nationals 2016? Then she went on to finish 11th at 2016 4CC and 17th at 2016 Worlds.

BOW is reasonable as long as it doesn't focus only on early-season results such as GPs and pre-GP B and Challenge events. You want to know how a skater does at END season events. And don't throw out JW results because they're junior level---if a skater has done well at JW, it means that skater has peaked at the right time, NOT mid-year.

Figure 8's · Feb 24, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Dump the concept of body of work completely and make US Nationals the end all be all competition of the year. Maybe by creating a more cut throat competition with meaningful consequences we’ll see better competitors develop. :think:

Agree 100percent. The US Nationals should be the be all and every skater will know it and try to skate their best. Bow is so subjective. Just another way of saying it is all about Politics and favoritism.

louisa05 · Feb 24, 2018

Figure 8's said:
Agree 100percent. The US Nationals should be the be all and every skater will know it and try to skate their best. Bow is so subjective. Just another way of saying it is all about Politics.

Interesting that the countries winning the medals do not choose a team based only on their national championships yet people here believe that is the answer for the U.S.

Do you all really love Ross Miner that much? Of all the skaters in this country across all disciplines, that's your guy?

Figure 8's · Feb 24, 2018

louisa05 said:
Interesting that the countries winning the medals do not choose a team based only on their national championships yet people here believe that is the answer for the U.S.

Do you all really love Ross Miner that much? Of all the skaters in this country across all disciplines, that's your guy?

It is not about Ross Miner and just as much to do with Mirai in 2014. What I see is the perception of favoritism and unfairness and that totally turns me off. I do understand the concept of Bow but how many who do not follow skating but every four years?

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 24, 2018

louisa05 said:
Do you all really love Ross Miner that much? Of all the skaters in this country across all disciplines, that's your guy?

But that’s sort of opposite of the point. Not getting attached to one skater and instead focusing on the result. I do think if an athlete knows they have to perform their best at US Nationals to continue their season regardless of who they are we will see a very telling sign of how capable they are of doing the same at major international events. To me it’s a much better sign than using results that could be skewed based on other events where judges panel, strength of competition, etc come into play.

As for the Ross Minor issue. Yeah...that is something that is going to be weighing in the back of all future skaters going into nationals. What affects it breads will vary. Maybe some will strive harder to get better international results...maybe some will train just hard enough to perform as expected knowing they can’t move up. Who knows honestly.

It doesn’t matter what other countries do. Sometimes it’s better to go your own way.

Short term adjustments for USFS

eriecold

skatesofgold

TontoK

Hot Tonto

bekalc

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

eriecold

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

chuckm

louisa05

eriecold

Shayuki

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

chuckm

Figure 8's

louisa05

Figure 8's

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

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