Trusova and Quads

Shayuki · Oct 16, 2018

neusw said:
...OK, let's see if she manages to jump any of those without < or << or falls once she gets even slightly bigger in any way. She is absolutely tiny, gets so little height on her jumps it's not even funny. If you think Anna has small jumps, holy hell even Alysa's triples are 1000% dependent on rotation speed right now. Of all young skaters trying difficult elements, I have the least faith in her keeping them. Her jumps are so tiny I expect her to be more likely to under-rotate her regular triples after puberty than to keep any of her 3A or quad elements.

I think that Elizaveta Berestovskaya has the worst quad attempts I've ever seen. Then again, she's not junior eligible until 2021-2022 so I guess there's plenty of time still.

On Alysa Liu, the 3A potential seems fine to me, it has decent size. But otherwise, she struggles with even rotating her triples at this point. She's about the same age as Shcherbakova was when she was landing fully rotated 4Ts.

oatmella · Oct 16, 2018

I think some skaters find 3A harder than quads. I don’t know if that’s the case with Sasha - but I recall Nathan was learning 3A for years (not months!) before learning quads. He’s still working on mastering 3A after 7 years or so

Shayuki · Oct 16, 2018

oatmella said:
I think some skaters find 3A harder than quads. I don’t know if that’s the case with Sasha - but I recall Nathan was learning 3A for years (not months!) before learning quads. He’s still working on mastering 3A after 7 years or so

It is the case with Sasha. She was trying the 3A at first(because you are "supposed to") and it didn't work so well, so they switched to learning the 4S. As it turns out, 4S even ends up being a pretty weak quad for her and the toe quads actually work out much better.

So no, it's not just them deciding to do quads "because they give more points" and her surely being able to 3A "if she tried". Of course, it's still possible she could learn 3A. But the reason she went for the quads first is because it was easier for her than 3A.

neusw · Oct 16, 2018

Shayuki said:
It is the case with Sasha. She was trying the 3A at first(because you are "supposed to") and it didn't work so well, so they switched to learning the 4S. As it turns out, 4S even ends up being a pretty weak quad for her and the toe quads actually work out much better.

So no, it's not just them deciding to do quads "because they give more points" and her surely being able to 3A "if she tried". Of course, it's still possible she could learn 3A. But the reason she went for the quads first is because it was easier for her than 3A.

Everyone has their strengths, but the argument that a 3A should be worth more than some quads, like some people are trying to make, just because a few notable skaters are better at quads makes no sense. Across all skaters, the success rate on average with 3A is better than with quads. That applies to both men and women. Just like a few women may struggle more with the 2A, but on average more mistakes happen with triples than with a 2A. The base value is based on average perceived difficulty across all skaters, not what’s “easier” for one skater over another. Some skaters, like Zagitova, find 3Lz way easier than 3S, but no one’s trying to say that a 3S should be worth more than 3Lz.

Somehow, the incredible recent success of just a couple of girls with quads has devalued the apparent worth or impressiveness of the quad for some fans. And because of the perception that these girls won’t be able to get a 3A, that somehow means the 3A is a superior skill. These girls are still pushing the technical boundaries and actively improving week-to-week. It would be foolish to assume that they’ve reached their maximum technical abilities.

Shayuki · Oct 16, 2018

Oh, I see. Well, that just makes no sense. If we watch any Men's skating for instance, the vast majority of the mid-end skaters do have 3As yet have no quads. Heck, even with the quadsters there are several more ladies with 3As than quads.

chopinskate · Oct 16, 2018

neusw said:
Somehow, the incredible recent success of just a couple of girls with quads has devalued the apparent worth or impressiveness of the quad for some fans.

I haven't yet seen this, but sad if true. Most argue that the quads these ladies have done thus far aren't impressive and not worth the GOE they receive, with which I agree. Some other debate poses that women have their own strengths which ought to be explored instead of the hyper-focus on jumping (better spins and spirals than men, for instance), which is worthwhile to have, IMO.

I think bringing up the men's field in relation to the junior ladies doing quads or not isn't fuel for a good debate.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 16, 2018

chopinskate said:
I haven't yet seen this, but sad if true. Most argue that the quads these ladies have done thus far aren't impressive and not worth the GOE they receive, with which I agree.

Strongly disagree! Saying most people feel this way is just plain conjecture. I certainly don’t agree. Sasha scoring positive GOE is nothing egregious by today’s standards. Triples are scored the same way and there is nothing wrong with it. People get carried away with their criticism of the scoring sometimes and just lose sight of what balance and fairness look like in a practical sense IMO. Even the jumps Sasha has fought for can realistically score a few positive GOE by some judges.

Some other debate poses that women have their own strengths which ought to be explored instead of the hyper-focus on jumping (better spins and spirals than men, for instance), which is worthwhile to have, IMO.

Don’t take this wrong but that sounds a bit like go back to the kitchen and cook :shocked:

Girls can do anything boys can.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo2CwgxlhfY/

IMO the problem isn’t with the girls pushing boundaries but with those obsessed with hyper criticism. Being outraged is so 2018.

chopinskate · Oct 16, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Saying most people feel this way is just plain conjecture.

Definitely don't agree with this. There's been plenty of criticism online. Semantically, though, I meant "most people who criticize their quads".

Sam-Skwantch said:
Sasha scoring positive GOE is nothing egregious by today’s standards.

This assumes people agree with everyone else whose scores are egregious. Obviously, untrue.

Sam-Skwantch said:
Don’t take this wrong but that sounds a bit like go back to the kitchen and cook :shocked:

It doesn't, and of course that's not what was meant. It seems factual that most women have greater flexibility and sense of balance than most men, and therefore might be better at things like spirals and layback spins. It is not egregious to say that. Ideally, every skater can explore their own strengths, since not all men are great jumpers, either. One can also equally say that hyper-focus on jumping is a masculinization of the sport, and paint the "girls can do anything that boys can" instead as "women should catch up" (given that men have been doing quads and 3As for far longer). It's really not as cut-and-dry as some like to believe.

Sam-Skwantch said:
Being outraged is so 2018.

Including the outrage towards anyone critical towards the quads being produced by them?

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 16, 2018

chopinskate said:
This assumes people agree with everyone else whose scores are egregious. Obviously, untrue.

I’m not addressing those who complain about score in this instance. I’m simply saying under today’s rules and in relation to Sasha’s quads nothing is wrong with her receiving positive GOE. It’s well within the rules. Whether I personally would score it that way is irrelevant to this discussion. Even if I scored one a -2 and another judge gave it a +2 it would be completely acceptable. I wouldn’t be right or wrong and neither would the other judge. That’s just how it works and there is nothing wrong with it.

Including the outrage towards anyone critical towards the quads being produced by them?

I reserve my outrage only for the hypercritical

Atlantis · Oct 16, 2018

neusw said:
Somehow, the incredible recent success of just a couple of girls with quads has devalued the apparent worth or impressiveness of the quad for some fans.

If you by chance talk about my post, I meant literal goe bullets, as in good height and good ice coverage. Not that it isn't impressive that they can do it at all.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 16, 2018

Atlantis said:
If you by chance talk about my post, I meant literal goe bullets, as in good height and good ice coverage. Not that it isn't impressive that they can do it at all.

Sasha gets good height and ice coverage on her jumps though. That’s not really being implied somewhere is it?

Atlantis · Oct 16, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Sasha gets good height and ice coverage on her jumps though. That’s not really being implied is it?

I think it's decent but is it worth +4/+5 or +2 (by old judging system) That is debatable.
Also, please note, that I'm not against ladies quads and don't send anybody to the kitchen. I'm very much in, I just feel like proper jumping technique doesn't have any advantages in the current judging system and that upsets me a bit since skaters whose stongest side is huge jumps are not being properly valued (by comparison).

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 16, 2018

Atlantis said:
I think it's decent but is it worth +4/+5 or +2 (by old judging system) That is debatable.
Also, please note, that I'm not against ladies quads and don't send anybody to the kitchen. I'm very much in, I just feel like proper jumping technique doesn't have any advantages in the current judging system and that upsets me a bit since skaters which stongest sides are huge jumps are not being properly valued (by comparison).

I must confess huge jumps don’t impress upon me as much as clean and tidy jumps that fit nicely into a program. Only a few “huge” jumpers have really impressed me and they get great GOE and win when they are on so I’m not very concerned over their scores. If they can just perform reasonably well they win.

I concur that you make a good point but speaking of GOE let’s look at Sasha’s GOE. She rarely gets above a +2 and the judges have been in general agreement on her scores. The only instance was the 4t-3t in which most judges still went around +2 but two did give it +4’s. Meh... I have to admit that it was total badass the way she got up from that fall and went down there and did the first quad combo by any lady in history. I’d have given it a +1 or 2 even with the scratchy landing. What can I say? I’m a softy and while I respect technique I’m also open to way more things than just saying everyone needs to jump with identical technique. There is something to be said of a situational aspect of competition which exists for me. There is an energy that exists and affects people albeit sometimes differently. I wouldn’t have given it +4 because she fought the landing but I’m not upset someone did.

I for instance think her 4z getting ratified with 0 GOE is a great example of good judging. She has correct edge, reasonable rotation, excellent height and air position. There are plenty of reasons to give it GOE but it wasn’t a smooth landing this time so zero GOE was appropriate. Sasha getting an average of +2’s for the rest of her jumps seems pretty fair IMO. Especially when considering the risks she is taking.

Spirals for Miles · Oct 16, 2018

moriel said:
I kinda dont care about domestic competition and training videos.
Once a skater does it with at most < or rotated but fall internationally, then we talk about the potential.

Tired of all the obscure tries that never translate into actual performances.

but Alysa can't go international yet

Yuzuruu · Oct 16, 2018

Atlantis said:
I think it's decent but is it worth +4/+5 or +2 (by old judging system) That is debatable.
Also, please note, that I'm not against ladies quads and don't send anybody to the kitchen. I'm very much in, I just feel like proper jumping technique doesn't have any advantages in the current judging system and that upsets me a bit since skaters that stongest side is huge jumps are not being properly valued (by comparison).

I'd say a lot of people are mostly upset about the technique rather than the "hugeness". Very few skaters have really hughe jumps and I'd say Sasha is actually one of them, she gets really impressive height for someone of her size but her technique on the lutz is questionable and, yes, I dare say her and Anna's 4Lz's are not that impressive, even without slo-mo a long time viewer/fan/skater can tell that it's not a full 4Lz. It's still in the protocol though so oh well.
Sasha's 4Sal and 4T is a different story though - I applaud them loudly because they are huge, rotated and beautiful.

Atlantis · Oct 16, 2018

Yuzuruu said:
I'd say a lot of people are mostly upset about the technique rather than the "hugeness". Very few skaters have really hughe jumps and I'd say Sasha is actually one of them, she gets really impressive height for someone of her size but her technique on the lutz is questionable and, yes, I dare say her and Anna's 4Lz's are not that impressive, even without slo-mo a long time viewer/fan/skater can tell that it's not a full 4Lz. It's still in the protocol though so oh well.
Sasha's 4Sal and 4T is a different story though - I applaud them loudly because they are huge, rotated and beautiful.

I just got the impression that when it's really textbook the jumps are mavellous like some of Liza Tuktamysheva's jumps or Polina Tsurskaya's jumps. Maybe I really mixed everything together and they are just natural jumpers. But if correct technique doesn't have that sort of advantage, what advantage does it have and why should skaters use it if jumps with PR are more stable?

Sam-Skwantch said:
I have to admit that it was total badass the way she got up from that fall and went down there and did the first quad combo by any lady in history.

Yes, that is the most amazing about her, she is such a fighter.

Sam-Skwantch said:
I concur that you make a good point but speaking of GOE let’s look at Sasha’s GOE. She rarely gets above a +2 and the judges have been in general agreement on her scores.

You are right, I remember there being way more +4s but I just checked and turnes out I maybe was thinking about someone else's protocols. There are still some questionble judging choices, but who doesn't have them.

Shayuki · Oct 16, 2018

Atlantis said:
I just got the impression that when it's really textbook the jumps are mavellous like some of Liza Tuktamysheva's jumps or Polina Tsurskaya's jumps. Maybe I really mixed everything together and they are just natural jumpers. But if correct technique doesn't have that sort of advantage, what advantage does it have and why should skaters use it if jumps with PR are more stable?

No reason, really. The purpose of good technique is to make the jump be stable and gain good GOE after all. If PR technique is more stable and gives higher GOE AKA superior results, then the skater should learn such technique.

To be honest, I don't find Kanysheva's 3Lutz more impressive than Trusova's even though Kanysheva does it with classic tech and Trusova doesn't.

NymphyNymphy · Oct 16, 2018

Shayuki said:
No reason, really. The purpose of good technique is to make the jump be stable and gain good GOE after all. If PR technique is more stable and gives higher GOE AKA superior results, then the skater should learn such technique.

To be honest, I don't find Kanysheva's 3Lutz more impressive than Trusova's even though Kanysheva does it with classic tech and Trusova doesn't.

Good technique especially in the toe jumps allows the jump to be explosive and large. Skaters like Liza release moments after picking allowing for huge explosive jumps. When you pre-rotate you lose a lot of that energy generated from the picking action. I don't pre-rotate my singles and they are much larger. My doubles are heavily pre-rotated and I find that a I lose a lot of energy from rotating on the ice after picking. If Trusova can get stable jumps with the same distance and height as Liza then she deserves the highest of GOE's. I've never seen Liza or Trusova live so I can't say for sure.

Shayuki · Oct 16, 2018

NymphyNymphy said:
Good technique especially in the toe jumps allows the jump to be explosive and large. Skaters like Liza release moments after picking allowing for huge explosive jumps. When you pre-rotate you lose a lot of that energy generated from the picking action. I don't pre-rotate my singles and they are much larger. My doubles are heavily pre-rotated and I find that a I lose a lot of energy from rotating on the ice after picking. If Trusova can get stable jumps with the same distance and height as Liza then she deserves the highest of GOE's. I've never seen Liza or Trusova live so I can't say for sure.

My point is that Kanysheva has essentially perfect Lutz technique but Trusova's Lutz still is more impressive than hers because she gains a lot more height and power. Hence, in that case it's not quite like that. Another example is Berestovskaya but we don't really know how she'll turn out. Also not exactly impressive despite the Lutz tech. What that means is that such tech isn't the only thing that matters when it comes to making a jump impressive.

moriel · Oct 16, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
but Alysa can't go international yet

Whenever she can, we will talk.
Domestic judging is known for being weird, including the part where the judges evaluate the underrotations. This is why Sasha has the 4Lz, not Anya, despite Anya landing two of them in a domestic competition.

For all we know, Alysa's 3A and 4Lz may never be ratified at an ISU competition.

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