Mao Asada's Olympic FS

NadezhdaNadya said:

Mao Asada should have won the FS in 2014 Olympics.There, I said it.

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Yes.

Mao skating to a Rach program choreographed by Tarasova, performed at the Olympics in Russia, with that beautiful dress it was clearly the best free skate.

Politics aside, I think her score were lowballed due to her SP, just like Maria Sotskova was kinda robbed this year in Pyeongchang because of the mistake in the short.

Certainly not the best free program I've ever seen, but it's great nonetheless. Personally, I think that FP should be #1 quality-wise in Sochi. Scoring-wise though, I think her inconsistency with the triple axel, which she failed to land in both team and SP, hurt her score. And I'd like to quote an article with link below:

"She was 16th after the short program, with no realistic chance of getting a medal.
[...] Much has been made of her outstanding free skate on Thursday, with some considering it redemption. But that is a weak assessment.
[...] Performing when you have no pressure at all is no challenge. The expectations are low, so it is not difficult to look good."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...kating/maos-inflexibility-hurt-medal-chances/

khanhhung2512 said:

Certainly not the best free program I've ever seen, but it's great nonetheless. Personally, I think that FP should be #1 quality-wise in Sochi. Scoring-wise though, I think her inconsistency with the triple axel, which she failed to land in both team and SP, hurt her score. And I'd like to quote an article with link below:

"She was 16th after the short program, with no realistic chance of getting a medal.
[...] Much has been made of her outstanding free skate on Thursday, with some considering it redemption. But that is a weak assessment.
[...] Performing when you have no pressure at all is no challenge. The expectations are low, so it is not difficult to look good."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...kating/maos-inflexibility-hurt-medal-chances/

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I don't think that's the right quote at all to describe what we witnessed in Sochi. Mao's freeskate wasn't memorable because it was being compared to a botched SP, it was great simply because it was great. Everything from the performance and technical side was wonderful and it captivated the audience. I think I remember it was the most of tweeted about performance of the night.

I was stunned by her relatively mediocre scores. Her FS was far and above the best of the entire ladies comp. I thought so then; I think so now.

khanhhung2512 said:

Certainly not the best free program I've ever seen, but it's great nonetheless. Personally, I think that FP should be #1 quality-wise in Sochi. Scoring-wise though, I think her inconsistency with the triple axel, which she failed to land in both team and SP, hurt her score. And I'd like to quote an article with link below:

"She was 16th after the short program, with no realistic chance of getting a medal.
[...] Much has been made of her outstanding free skate on Thursday, with some considering it redemption. But that is a weak assessment.
[...] Performing when you have no pressure at all is no challenge. The expectations are low, so it is not difficult to look good."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...kating/maos-inflexibility-hurt-medal-chances/

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That statement is just so wrong and full of unneccessary negativity. Performing is never easy and pressure and nervousness is always there. Skaters want to do their best every time, but sadly not many manage it. If performing is easy when you're not in medal contention, why arent all lower placed skaters at the Olympics performing flawlessly? Those who know well before they wont medal will still not be perfect. Maybe that's because it is never easy.

Moreover, Mao still faced pressure. After she failed two times she feared it would happen again. She was devastated that she couldnt deliver and thought that she couldnt return to Japan like that. So she desperatly wanted to do well at last. How can anyone think this skate wasnt a challenge for her any more only because she wasnt in medal contention?

I totally agree she should have been first in the FS. It's hard to enjoy my sport sometimes, because of this type of nonsense. I also don't understand why Mao had to meet such a high standard to have her jumps called clean, but many others are constantly not called and given the benefit of doubt. What kind of politics was going on behind the scenes concerning her? She's a legend, I just don't get it.

But back to the program, it was a masterpiece, it was perfect for her and she skated so well there, had all the components of what an Olympic Champion should be. I still go back and watch it. It was really the only FS of the 2014 and 2018 Olympics that stuck with me. I also love Yuna's Send in the Clowns SP. Which was also very underscored. How can Med score close to 160 sometimes, but Mao only got like 143. It's total nonsense. We all know skating earlier lowers your score, but whyyyyyy does it lower your score. The practice is ridiculous.

Forget the Sochi podium controversy, the biggest injustice is definitely the scoring of Mao's FS. There is just NO justification whatsoever for that performance to receive lower PCS than Adelina, who got 74 and Julia who got 70 with a fall in her program.
I didn't particularly find the Rach choreography that amazing when I first saw the program during the grand prix. However, her performance in Sochi elevated the program. I also think this might be a program that looked better live because the camera angles for most broadcasts do not do justice to her movements and the step sequence. This was apparent to me when I watched the fancam version of this performance. Her movements including all of her jumps were in synch and very well-timed to the music and the step sequence plus choreographic sequence at the end looked even more impressive when you see it from a full rink view.
But I am very happy to know that the her Sochi FS continues to remain in many people's memories, as evidenced by the references made in relation to Nathan's FS at these Olympics.

I think Mao is a very misunderstood skater, which for me makes her the most fascinating one of her generation. I disagree with the general notion that she was mostly a jumper the early part of her career and then became more of an artist in later years. I think Phil Hersh, of all people imo, got it right when he said that her lightness on the ice gave an impression of artistry from the very beginning. JSF and Mao herself did not really help to correct this misunderstanding with the constant talk about the 3A. Mao certainly devoted a lot of time to the 3A but she also paid attention to extension, positions, and carriage in her skating. One of the most striking elements of Bells was the spiral sequence which was hauntingly exquisite. To me it is really these aesthetic qualities that set her apart from her peers and made me a fan of her skating. She was one of the very few skaters to consistently showcase qualities of classical skating that IJS does not reward with their focus on speed, big jumps, rotations, etc. If it weren't for Mao, I think I'd lost interest in skating a long time ago. She was one of the last models of grace and beauty in figure skating.

khanhhung2512 said:

And I'd like to quote an article with link below:

"(deleted)."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...kating/maos-inflexibility-hurt-medal-chances/

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Japan Times? I don't even bother to click on the link and I'd know from whom you're quoting....dear Mr. G.? Just a FS reporter who claims to know everything about FS (esp. in Japan) and actually knows nothing much. TBH, most of his reporting were no more than what ppl already knew. And I'm particularly sick of how he pretends to be knowing Mao closely and personally but never bothers nor has been capable of finding out what actually happened. 'No pressure!?' Sometimes I just wonder if it is too easy for him as a foreigner to say these things in his native language without taking up any responsibility as a journalist.

Anyway, back to the topic, I think Mao throughout her competitive career has been trained/taught so well that, knowing the integrity as a sports person, she rarely complained about anything such as injuries, boots problems, and not to mention the judging system. Perhaps it's also in her nature that she knew the only things she could have done was to improve herself. So we saw how much she tried to put the 3S jump back after Vancouver, and working on the edge for Lz until the very last moment of her competitive career, also of course constantly challenging 3A. And I agree Mao had shown in her skating the artistic side very early on, and it has developed into its full form after she returned from that year she took off from competitions.

But, what's done is done, and I believe she has no regret for what happened. I'm more happy for her now that she still finds her passion in FS after announcing retirement for almost a year. Soon we'll able to see her in her ice tour to show appreciations around Japan. It's for sure she'll include Rach 2 as one of the 16 numbers from her competitive career. She may not be able to do the same 8-triple program again, but I'm still interested in watching how she'll grow, even after turning into a pro and most likely performing her competitive programs for one last time throughout next season.

Here's my opinion:

A reputation of consistency goes a long way in this sports. In other words, if you're known for successfully and beautifully performing the elements in your program, you will generally receive higher score when you perform well and not be punished as severely when you perform badly (but it'll affect your score in the next event). I guess the point is to prevent skaters from trying to design programs that are over their capabilities, so that they bomb most of the time but get gold in the rare chance they perform beautifully. In other words, Gold will be based on abilities than luck.

Mao is a legend, but at the time of Sochi, she couldn't deliver her 3A reliably anymore. Not just team event and SP, she also fell in the Grand Prix Final earlier. Even Mao herself said she only succeeded with 3A 50-70% of the time in practice. Yulia Lipnitskaya, on the other hand, had a reputation of consistency before Sochi, and let's not forget her performance at the team event.

Another reason Mao's score was lowered than people expected is she was 16th after SP and not in the medal contending group (the last 6). I think people get punished more with their errors if they're not in the medal contending group. You may think it's not fair, but that's the way of the game. You have to perform well in both SP and LP to earn medals. (Probably the idea survives from the day where your standing depends on your ranks, not scores, in both SP and LP.)

Another thing, I don't understand why people contend about the pressure thing. If you're in the medal contending group, you're in much greater pressure. Should you play it safe, or you go all out? What about what your opponents will do?

As an elite skater, Mao understood better than any of us how the scoring system worked. But I guess she cared more about having memorable performances with her signature 3A than securing medals.

Finally, do I think Adelina deserved gold? No. But neither did anyone else. Yuna Kim chose a safe, less challenging program. Lipnitskaya, despite the reputation she had built before Sochi and during the team event, bombed. And Mao Asada, well, was not in the medal contending group.

khanhhung2512 said:

Here's my opinion:
Finally, do I think Adelina deserved gold? No. But neither did anyone else. Yuna Kim chose a safe, less challenging program. Lipnitskaya, despite the reputation she had built before Sochi and during the team event, bombed. And Mao Asada, well, was not in the medal contending group.

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I think that maybe Carolina deserved the gold (SP+FS)? Many times she has been overscored - Worlds 2008, Worlds 2014, Europeans 2018, Olympics 2018. But in Sochi was the opposite.

khanhhung2512 said:

Here's my opinion:



Mao is a legend, but at the time of Sochi, she couldn't deliver her 3A reliably anymore. Not just team event and SP, she also fell in the Grand Prix Final earlier.

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The only contradiction to the statement above is that, Mao did deliver and had (one of) the most beautiful 3A in the following WC 2014 during her SP performance. It's really not a matter of reliability but only a proof of how difficult the jump is (esp. to succeed it in the program) for the ladies.

NadezhdaNadya said:

I think that maybe Carolina deserved the gold (SP+FS)? Many times she has been overscored - Worlds 2008, Worlds 2014, Europeans 2018, Olympics 2018. But in Sochi was the opposite.

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Her FS score was right (i would have even give her a lower score since the last jumps were not that beautiful). But she could have scored higher in SP.
I would not have give her the gold.

Ballade88 said:

She was one of the very few skaters to consistently showcase qualities of classical skating that IJS does not reward with their focus on speed, big jumps, rotations, etc. If it weren't for Mao, I think I'd lost interest in skating a long time ago. She was one of the last models of grace and beauty in figure skating.

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I agree with most of your comments, but a heat map which I have posted several times before in other comments shows that Mao had the most rink coverage and most expansive jump placement in all corners in rapid succession in the Sochi LP indicating the most speed with ideal posture and few straight crossovers. Mao was a marvelous sprinter when she was younger which is one reason her dance steps are so fast, fluid and seemingly effortless with excellent edging, which is also smooth like cutting through butter as Lori Nichol said. Furthermore, physical evidence in slow motion very often shows it isn't a matter of actual rotation but on who is skating and whether they are favored or singled out as a target for the judges that determines ur and edge calls with Mao being the most victimized to my mind because she posed the biggest threat for a skater who was not favored or backed even by her own federation. This is indicated by the the fact that the JSF forced her to train in a sandy and bitterly cold rink at high elevation with less oxygen which wreaked havoc with her blades and training and was a big detriment to her preparation for the Sochi individual competition, thus the lowballed scoring in tech and PCS was an extension of this poor treatment along with the insulting comments made by the former Japanese PM. The overly harsh and bogus calls on urs at home in the Worlds LP 2014 in Japan coupled with deflated PCS scores in the SP and LP showed this as well.

Regardless of how the judges treated her, held her to impossible standards, never gave her the benefit of the doubt, they can’t take away what she has done for Ladies’ figure skating. When Mao bested everyone the season going into the 2006 Olympics (where Shizuka Arakawa won the FS with 5 triples), it really lit a fire under everyone’s *ahem* bottoms for the next quad and the one after it. I also don’t think we would have had Yuna Kim without Mao Asada and vice versa. Their rivalry on ice is one for the history books, and they really defined ladies figure skating for 8 years.

I was saddened that Mao didn't place first at the FS at least back then. It was the best FS in Sochi for the ladies I've seen and still remains very memorable to me. I mean that stsq is just wow!!!:

I dare hope that had she done it this year she would have won the FS. The judges didn't realize how lucky they were to have her and held her down because they preferred other skaters. There was also much less respect for the technically ambitious lady skaters back in 2014 than in 2018.

I agree....

cheerio2 said:

Some people think Mao can't handle pressure, but I really don't think it was her fault. The judges were always so aggressive in downgrading her and never gave her the benefit of the doubt that it would have made any skater very insecure and doubt their jumps. I'm all for calling underrotations when it's obvious, but for borderline cases where it's not clear and the landing has nice flowout, the judges shouldn't be able to do a total hatchet job on someone's Base Value through arbitrary and overly aggressive downgrading.

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I agree with this opinion. During her prime, she was also attempting ambitious layouts that were technically far ahead of everyone else at the time. Remember the two triple-triples and 3A freeskate layout during 2007-2008? When you take that much risk in your layouts, there are bound to be more mistakes on average. Nowadays, we have skaters try to one up each other on technical content and difficult jumps. But Mao was pretty much the only one attempting the 3A for most of her career. Yukari retired after 2010 and Elizaveta T was at her peak during Mao's off-season. I always thought the criticism around her inconsistency with the 3A was quite unfair, because there hasn't been a ladies skater who is consistent with a 3A. Midori was magnificent but she also was not consistent with her 3A. And certainly not Tonya Harding, who only successfully landed a few and her landings were always sloppy to be honest. It's not fair to compare her to the male skaters either because triple axel is a common jump in their discipline. The triple axel was rare in the ladies discipline because it was a very difficult and tricky jump to do. Mao also has longevity with that jump by successfully attempting it well into her mid-twenties. I believe the rise in ladies attempting the 3A should be at least partly attributed to her dedication and longevity with the jump. Midori and Tonya were the trailblazers but because they were such powerful skaters, it was difficult for others to replicate the height and power of their 3As, so that was why I think the jump pretty much disappeared from the ladies field for a long time after that era. Mao's success with the 3A showed that you did not have to look like Midori and Tonya to be able to do the jump. I think that inspired others like Mirai and Rika to try that jump.

Ah the ladies event of Sochi 2014 :dance2:

What I can say, is that the fact that we are all still celebrating Mao and her Olympic 2014 free skate is a testament to how much of an impact it had on this sport regardless of placement.

Ballade88 said:

I agree with this opinion. During her prime, she was also attempting ambitious layouts that were technically far ahead of everyone else at the time. Remember the two triple-triples and 3A freeskate layout during 2007-2008? When you take that much risk in your layouts, there are bound to be more mistakes on average. Nowadays, we have skaters try to one up each other on technical content and difficult jumps. But Mao was pretty much the only one attempting the 3A for most of her career. Yukari retired after 2010 and Elizaveta T was at her peak during Mao's off-season. I always thought the criticism around her inconsistency with the 3A was quite unfair, because there hasn't been a ladies skater who is consistent with a 3A. Midori was magnificent but she also was not consistent with her 3A. And certainly not Tonya Harding, who only successfully landed a few and her landings were always sloppy to be honest. It's not fair to compare her to the male skaters either because triple axel is a common jump in their discipline. The triple axel was rare in the ladies discipline because it was a very difficult and tricky jump to do. Mao also has longevity with that jump by successfully attempting it well into her mid-twenties. I believe the rise in ladies attempting the 3A should be at least partly attributed to her dedication and longevity with the jump. Midori and Tonya were the trailblazers but because they were such powerful skaters, it was difficult for others to replicate the height and power of their 3As, so that was why I think the jump pretty much disappeared from the ladies field for a long time after that era. Mao's success with the 3A showed that you did not have to look like Midori and Tonya to be able to do the jump. I think that inspired others like Mirai and Rika to try that jump.

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I think that only Rika Kihira and Alexandra Trusova have done more difficult technical programs than Mao. Her 2007 GPF FS his one of the most difficult programs ever skated. Even with no 3-3 in 2010, for me she had the most difficult tech in FS. The podium of her best tech contents would be :
1. Fantasie impromptu (2007 GPF)
2. Rachmaninov 2 (Sochi)
3. Czcardas (2007 worlds)
And yes she has the longest longevity with 3A. Since her junior days to the end of her career.