Why people care about jump takeoff (flutz)?

khanhhung2512 · Mar 20, 2018

Why do so many people care about jump takeoff in women's figure skating (aka. flip + lutz = flutz)?

With nearly flat edge, even judges can't tell if it's inside or outside without video replay. Shouldn't people focus more on the more visible and important results of the technique like secure landing, height, frequency of success, and graceful minor movements before or after the jump? I know the jumps were invented to be performed in a particular way (in only 1 rev though) and most official sources say that you're supposed to perform it with inside or outside edge. However, I don't think there's any research on how to perform the jumps most beautifully for women, e.g. inside or outside edge but what angles, or whether that angle should apply for all women. As far as I'm concerned, those elite women are the ones at the frontier to experiment with the techniques for most beautiful programs and most graceful and reliable jumps for themselves.

It seems that in the past, the ISU was also quite fussy with this edge thing but has become more lenient with it recently. And I think it's a good thing. I watched Kim Yuna's 2010 Olympic LP and I don't enjoy it nearly as much as Medvedeva's and Zagitova's programs nowadays (or even Lipnitskya's Olympic team LP), probably because Kim spent more idle time before each jump trying to find the right momentum and the right edge.

Barb · Mar 20, 2018

If I take into account which jumps look beautiful, regardless technique, I would not talk about Evegnia, Alina and much less about Yulia, I would talk about Mao, Osmond, Polina, Gracie, Yuna.

mrrice · Mar 20, 2018

Well, I care because it's much more difficult to perform a clean Lutz than it is to do a toe loop. That's why a clean Lutz is worth more than a toe loop or a flip. I have a ton a respect for skaters who can do a true Lutz.

Shayuki · Mar 20, 2018

khanhhung2512 said:
Shouldn't people focus more on the more visible and important results of the technique like secure landing, height, frequency of success, and graceful minor movements before or after the jump?

Well... to me, Lutz edge is pretty much the most visible feature of the jump. An incorrect edge totally ruins the jump in my eyes. Other things I find important on take off are a soft toe pick and the toe pick foot elevating very little(These 2 things go hand in hand). Another thing is the lack of pre-rotation as in the proper technique but this to me isn't nearly as important as these other three things. The only way jump edge would be somewhat difficult to figure out is if the camera angle is almost directly from the opposite side of the toe pick foot. But I'd hope there would be more than one camera angle.

By the way, it's not just a difference of "correct edge vs incorrect edge" for me. There's a world of difference between Sasha Trusova's Lutz edge and Alina Zagitova's Lutz edge, even though both are correct edges.

Right, that's just from the perspective of spectator enjoyment. Reality is, performing the jumps on correct edges is very difficult for the vast majority of ladies and as such, it'd only be fair if the skaters who can actually pull that off would be rewarded for it. For example, Medvedeva should get e for every Lutz, Osmond should get e for some ! for the rest, Sakamoto e for every Lutz etc. and these would be fair advantages that other skaters would have over them by learning the jumps properly.

But honestly, I wouldn't even limit it to just incorrect edge. I'd also like there to be a further GOE advantage for an amazing edge like, as mentioned, Trusova has in comparison to Zagitova.

Koatterce · Mar 20, 2018

It's not a matter of whether it looks nice or not. It has to do with the skater getting credit for something they did wrong/didn't do. Inside/outside edges aren't about looking nice. It's the literal definition of the jump, and if you do it wrong, you're doing a different jump. Why should a skater get a credit for a lutz when they actually did a flip (or vice versa)? Similar principle as underrotations/downgrades. Skaters shouldn't get credit for doing something they didn't do/did wrong.
If edge calls weren't a thing, why bother learning both lutz and flip when you could just learn one and sometimes call it the other?

xeyra · Mar 20, 2018

A lutz is worth more points than a flip and doing a lutz that is technically a flip shouldn't be worth the same points as an actual lutz, no matter how pretty the jump looks. Performance wise it may not matter, but it's still a points-based sport and so should be judged accordingly. So unless they abolish lutz/flip as two different jumps altogether or make them worth the same points, I think the edge should matter.

Mathman · Mar 20, 2018

Shayuki said:
Well... to me, Lutz edge is pretty much the most visible feature of the jump. An incorrect edge totally ruins the jump in my eyes.

This is especially true for men, IMHO. Most elite men don't flutz, but some can ride that deep outside edge all the way in and it looks spectacular. Also, with a deep outside edge it is practically impossible to pre-rotate (you are curving the wrong direction). This is the one jump that is not dimininshed by too much telegraphing.

I, for one, would be sad if the ISU decided to lighten up on ladies' edge calls. This would basically be saying, well, we can't expect a mere woman to do what men do.

Lester · Mar 20, 2018

If you can't do a proper lutz (or another jump) you shouldn't get rewarded for it, it's not fair to the people who have mastered the proper technique. Beautiful jumps, experimentation and all that is visible to the audience can be rewarded in GOE and PCS. The base value score should strictly reflect what happened on the ice in terms of technical execution.

pearly · Mar 20, 2018

It's obvious - edge determines if the jump is clean or not, which in turn determines its base value, which in turn determines the score and the result. I don't understand the problem.

Also - what is the difference between caring about it in women's or men's figure skating or pairs? We care the same.

Barb · Mar 20, 2018

But What are the rules for if they only punish some figure skaters while others get a pass?. Same with ur.

khanhhung2512 · Mar 20, 2018

Koatterce said:
It's not a matter of whether it looks nice or not. It has to do with the skater getting credit for something they did wrong/didn't do. Inside/outside edges aren't about looking nice. It's the literal definition of the jump, and if you do it wrong, you're doing a different jump. Why should a skater get a credit for a lutz when they actually did a flip (or vice versa)? Similar principle as underrotations/downgrades. Skaters shouldn't get credit for doing something they didn't do/did wrong.
If edge calls weren't a thing, why bother learning both lutz and flip when you could just learn one and sometimes call it the other?

Isn't the whole and final point of figure skating to look as beautiful as possible? Lutz and flip also have different setups. Edge is a thing but there are other important things that probably are not accounted in the judging process. You're Canadian, so Kaetlyn Osmond is probably your favorite skater. However, I find her movement before each jump rather funny. I wonder if it is accounted in the judging process.

russianfan · Mar 20, 2018

at times i feel like lutz edge was invented just to give people something to complain about :biggrin:

icybear · Mar 20, 2018

khanhhung2512 said:
Isn't the whole and final point of figure skating to look as beautiful as possible? Lutz and flip also have different setups. Edge is a thing but there are other important things that probably are not accounted in the judging process. You're Canadian, so Kaetlyn Osmond is probably your favorite skater. However, I find her movement before each jump rather funny. I wonder if it is accounted in the judging process.

Figure skating is a sport. Just looking beautiful isn't going to gain you points. You have to do the elements properly .

gkelly · Mar 20, 2018

There are a lot of different things that count in figure skating. Often being good at one thing balances out being not so good at something else. But ultimately the basic point of figure skating is using the body to control the blade edges on the ice. Looking good is a big plus, but the edges come first.

likevelvet · Mar 20, 2018

I think you're forgetting about GOE... the whole point of a GOE being awarded, one way or another, is for the details of the jump execution that enhance or downgrade it. The things you listed in the OP - stability, height/distance, grace in and out of the jump, difficult entry or entry out of footwork - are exactly what judges look at when deciding GOE. So they are factored into the score. But obviously you can't really award a skater positive GOE on a lutz that's been executed as a flip instead... that does bring up an interesting point, though somewhat off topic. With scoring being "what the skater did" rather than "what the planned element was," is counting a flip that was planned as a lutz as a downgraded lutz fair or would it be more fair to award the skater a well-executed flip? I don't know if there's even a right answer here, but I usually see it being counted as a lutz with downgraded GOE.

TryMeLater · Mar 20, 2018

Suppose you have a maths test and you are asked to solve 3.63+4=?
Your answer is 7.6 which is close approximation of the correct answer, but not the correct answer which is 7.63.
What grade will you be given?
The same logic applies to flutz and lip - they are close approximations of the correct jump.

ladyjane · Mar 20, 2018

khanhhung2512 said:
Isn't the whole and final point of figure skating to look as beautiful as possible?

I think if FS were only to look beautiful or perhaps spectacular, it would either not be considered a sport or just plain acrobatics. But, it is a sport and elements should be executed correctly, be they jumps or other elements. If they're also executed beautifully, that's a big bonus (I presume that's what +GOE and PCS marks are for). But I think it is rather derogatory to a sport and more specifically just to the ladies in the event, to see the main aim as 'being and looking' beautiful. These are athletes, not passive beauty queens (even if there certainly are some really good looking ladies, and men for that matter among them, and that costumes aid in looking rather nice as well, and of course when certain skaters have excellent skating skills and transitions that's lovely ). If you wish not to see it as a sport, at least call it an art, not a beauty contest or cattle fair.

I'll give another example: if a pair has a throw triple axel in their programme, it looks beautiful but it is not fully rotated and landed two footed, of course it gets less Base Value than one that is executed correctly but perhaps less beautiful looking to the watcher. I don't think anyone would question this. You can discuss the BV (is it high enough or perhaps too high), whether the GOES and/or PCS are fair or not, but not that the element should be excecuted correctly. The same applies to the edges in question with Lips and Flutzes. Usually I can't see it myself in a programme (but I can sometimes in the slo-mo from the right camera angle), but that's what Technical Callers (and specialists) are for. They might not always do it right (lots of discussions on these forums about that), the basic premise is that an element should be executed correctly and awarded points accordingly, including an edge call if it isn't.

treblemakerem · Mar 20, 2018

I don't really get the whole flutz and lip thing. If they try for a lutz but are on their inside edge, it's a flip. It doesn't matter how they entered it. I think they should credit for a flip in that case rather than a lutz with a wrong edge. It's on them to make sure they don't repeat too many jumps and make sure they're on the correct edge.

Mathman · Mar 20, 2018

treblemakerem said:
I don't really get the whole flutz and lip thing. If they try for a lutz but are on their inside edge, it's a flip.

It's tricky. What if you try for a flip but totally mess the jump up and go off the wrong edge. Should you get 6.0 points for doing a Lutz?

treblemakerem · Mar 20, 2018

Mathman said:
It's tricky. What if you try for a flip but totally mess the jump up and go off the wrong edge. Should you get 6.0 points for doing a Lutz?

Why not? If you jump off your outside edge it's a lutz, you should get credit for a lutz. Theyd just then have to make sure not to do too many lutzes in that case.

Why people care about jump takeoff (flutz)?

khanhhung2512

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Koatterce

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Constant state

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Piper and Paul are made of magic dust and unicorns

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Barb

khanhhung2512

russianfan

Match Penalty

icybear

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Mathman

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