ISU Makes Threat To Member Nations Re. Skaters That Pulled Out of GP

Linny said:

Great idea (from AttyFan) about the GP events being for the up and comers with a big headliner doing an exhibition and possibly an autograph signing. So how can that idea be communicated to the organizers?
Linny

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Linny, you can email the ISU from their web site. I did last month about a different matter and I got an answer back the next day from Fredi Schmid.

But it looks like the idea of reserving the Grand Prix for up-and-comers is happening anyway without the ISU making any declarations about it. The marketplace has a way of working its will.

Janna said:

In figure skating there are so few competitions, that in my opinion it should be expected that the skaters appear in them, unless injured. And if they are injured, they should not be allowed to appear in shows during the time frame of GP competitions, if they wish to remain as eligible skaters for Worlds and Olympics. And they should not in future to be allowed to compete in Worlds and Olympics, if they don´t compete in GP (unless injured).

In my opinion ISU has been way too lenient in this matter.

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Jaana, to me, your post contains a lot of what you think people in positions of authority should "not allow" others to do. Many people (Speedy, for instance) have that mind set.

JMO.

Mathman

Linny said:

Great idea about the GP events being for the up and comers with a big headliner doing an exhibition and possibly an autograph signing.

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If the "big headliners" don't want to travel all over the globe to compete, why would they want to do so to skate exhibitions and sign autographs? Especially if they're not getting paid the same amount of money as they would to compete? And if they are getting paid $$$, where's that money going to come from in the age of declining TV revenues?

Mathman said:

Jaana, to me, your post contains a lot of what you think people in positions of authority should "not allow" others to do. Many people (Speedy, for instance) have that mind set.

JMO.

Mathman

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I´m not sure if I got you right, but to clarify my own opinion... I happen to think that Speedy is right in this matter about Grand Prix and skaters, for once, LOL.

Marjaana

I wonder what will happen if a skater's doctor think s/he needs to skip GP because of injury, and the ISU doctor thinks the injury is not severe enough, and s/he needs to compete??

gezando said:

I wonder what will happen if a skater's doctor think s/he needs to skip GP because of injury, and the ISU doctor thinks the injury is not severe enough, and s/he needs to compete??

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I would sincerely believe that if that skater is not appearing in shows or other competitions during the time of GP series, it would not be a problem.

Marjaana

You have more faith in the ISU to do the right thing than I do. If it were up to the ISU, nothing short of being hospitalized for an injury should be a reason for missing their precious GP series. If a skater wants to do the GP,fine with me. If not, that's OK with me as well. I don't hear of letters being sent to S. Korea over the problems with short track speed skating. Oh wait, Speedy was a speed skater, so what could be wrong with his sport?

Jaana said:

I would sincerely believe that if that skater is not appearing in shows or other competitions during the time of GP series, it would not be a problem.

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I understand that Plushenko's doctor told him to avoid long intercontinental plane flights in order to prevent a recurrence of the serious ear infection he had last spring. So maybe it's perfectly reasonable for him to stay home in Europe and do events there instead of flying off to North America or Asia to compete in Grand Prix events.

dr.frog said:

I understand that Plushenko's doctor told him to avoid long intercontinental plane flights in order to prevent a recurrence of the serious ear infection he had last spring. So maybe it's perfectly reasonable for him to stay home in Europe and do events there instead of flying off to North America or Asia to compete in Grand Prix events.

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Well, I also understand that Plushenko had no problem in going to Japan to appear in PIW shows in October...

Marjaana

Jaana, all I meant by my post was that as a matter of principle, it is almost always better to let people do what they want to, rather than impose a bunch of rules and regulations about what they must do and what they can't do.

Mathman

Re-thinking all this GP participation stuff....

I guess I like to try to put myself in the shoes of others, and also come up with the closest relevant examples in my own experience.

When Michelle first pulled out of the GP series, I didn't think about it a whole lot, and off the top of my head, it seemed like "well, it's her choice when / where to compete."

However I'm developing some different opinions. Of course I would never support forcing a truly injured skater to compete. So just for purposes of this scenario, can we assume at least some of these injuries are not necessarily so serious that the skater could not safely compete.

I personally think the GP series is important so that there IS a skating "season" (not just a nationals and a worlds and an oly every 4 years). I think fandom, and subsequent income opportunities for skaters might really dry up if there were not an organized season. If you agree with that line of thinking (and maybe you don't, that's just IMO).....

The skater's do get paid for GP participation (is that true at all levels, or only for the prize money winners? I'm not sure...). Therefore, there are contracts involved. Contracts are contracts, and the skaters shouldn't sign them and subsequently promise to participate if they don't want to agree to anything formally.

On my job that I get paid to do, I don't have the luxury of just showing up whenever I feel like it, and even without pay NOT showing up whenever I feel like it. My employer is paying me to provide value to the company, and that would not be possible if I just showed up whenever, or cancelled out of commitments at the last minute.

True injury is one thing, but I think Plushy may have crossed a line. It just doesn't ring true for him to say he's injured, but then participate in other comps and exhibitions. And to the degree he has an agreement with the ISU regarding these things, then he may well be in the wrong.

Before anyone throws eggs, I truly do not know to what degree MK, SC, or Plush or any others are injured or not, and what true limitations they have or not. I'm just saying that when people are getting paid to do a job, then they should honor their commitments if that is in fact, at issue here. All of us with a job have to do it that way, and I imagine that nearly all athletes who have $$ opportunities sign contracts that they are obligated to uphold.

Just a new 2 cents. OK!! BRING ON THE EGGS!!!

DG

Doggygirl said:

The skater's do get paid for GP participation (is that true at all levels, or only for the prize money winners? I'm not sure...). Therefore, there are contracts involved. Contracts are contracts, and the skaters shouldn't sign them and subsequently promise to participate if they don't want to agree to anything formally.

On my job that I get paid to do, I don't have the luxury of just showing up whenever I feel like it, and even without pay NOT showing up whenever I feel like it. My employer is paying me to provide value to the company, and that would not be possible if I just showed up whenever, or cancelled out of commitments at the last minute.

DG

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Where do people get this idea? Skaters do not get paid for GP participation. There's no appearance fees. There are no contracts. There are rules defining expectations of seeded skaters, just as their are rules that allow seeded skaters to decline. The only way a skater gets paid is if they are under contract by their country's federation to appear in certain events. The ISU doesn't put skaters under contracts. The contracts through a country's federation is meant to define and negotiate the amount of time required of skaters to promote certain events (such as the USFSA fluff comps), participate in clinics, compete at the events, do the rubber chicken circuit with sponsors, etc. Some countries may have a system like the US where you get funding based on a team envelope. Top skaters make their real money in endorsements, skating in sanctioned shows like COI, corporate sponsorship, etc. Very little of a top skater's earnings comes from the member federation or the ISU.

I wish people would stop making comparisons to their own work situation or those of professional athletes. If you accept employment and sign off on a company's policies and procedures mandating the hours you work and their expectations in exchange for a salary, that's a de facto contract. You work in exchange for an agreed upon salary. That's not the case with skaters.

Baseball players, football players, et al get paid MILLIONS under contract, so they can't just skip games at will. Plus their uniforms, equipment, training, coaching, and all travel and hotel expenses are covered by the team's owners. The players don't pick up the tab themselves the way skaters have to until they achieve a level of success that garners them corporate sponsorship to defray those costs.

If the ISU wants to put their marquee skaters under a contract paying them millions to to ensure their participation at events (and prize money is NOT the same as a salary under contract), then they should just do it. Otherwise they should shut up because none of the member federations will EVER vote to give away their rights to name whomever they want to the World and Olympic teams in favor of making GP participation a prerequisite to Worlds/Olympics.

"It was with due regards to all these aspects that the Members organizing the GP

competitions have made contractual commitments to enter seeded skaters in

accordance with article 2.1 of the GP Announcement and that the ISU Congress

some years ago adopted an amendment to rule 125 paragraph 4 and to rule 136

paragraph 6 of the ISU General Regulations under which :

“Improper conduct by a skater includes refusal, for other than medical or

other justifiable reason, to participate in the ISU Events in accordance with

commitments established by the ISU and Members concerned.” (For

confirmation of illness or injury see rule 104 paragraph 17)."

That's where I got the idea that there are agreements in place between federations, skaters, and the ISU. Agreements are agreements. Oral ones and hand shake ones can be just as strong and legal as written ones in many situations. (although I'm not certain about this one) If one makes an agreement in writing or otherwise, upholding it becomes something of importance in my opinion anyway.

Why are anyone's work related commitments (time / work in exchange for agreed upon pay) any different than a skater's or anyone else's for the purposes of a discussion about contracts and agreements? Are contracts only relevant if they pertain to athletes with a scale of pay in the millions? (If so, I'm calling in sick everyday I feel like it from here forward, and will expect my employer to like it or lump it.)

DG

I agree with this completely. I think that it hurts the attendance of the events when top stars i.e. Michelle Kwan, Evgeni Plushenko drop out. I was looking forward to seeing her Andrei Griazev, and others but NO she wasn't there. But I still enjoyed the event and I am happy for Angela Nikodinov that she won. But I think there would have been more people if Michelle Kwan opted to attend the event. I think they indeed should be punished for their unwillingness to compete in the Grand Prix series. I am afraid this would hurt Michelle at the Nationals (scoring wise) since she wasn't out there representing them, and drawing more attendess to the events, which would bring in more money.

I understand that people are mad that the ISU wants to "control" the seeded skaters. However, I can't blame them. I'm tired of seeing skaters pull out due to injury, and yet these same skaters are in a shows or compete at cheesefests. ISU depends on TV contracts, federations depend on ticket sales. This season, nothing has been sold out because of all the witndrawals. Even Cdn Nats (who used to be sold out) is now in a smaller venue due to reclining sales. It's obvious to me that most of these skaters are pulling out this season not because of injury, but because the reduction of prize money. For the top skaters, the money is not worth it.

The ISU is in charge of the GP and Worlds. When skaters decide to compete at the elite level, they know they need to compete under the ISU guidelines. IMO, it shouldn't matter if the skaters are world medallist, champions ect. but they know the rules.

If the skaters no longer wish to skate in the GP or ISU championships, imo,they should turn pro.

re. GP

Skate Sandee:
Great post - ITA. The GP events are "invitationals," and as such, skaters should have the right to decline and organize their season the way they wish.

A whole lot of training and hard work goes into preparing for these events, especially with the new scoring system. For some of the more seasoned skaters, who've been doing the circut for many years, they might not see the value in doing the GP as much as the younger skaters. This doesn't mean they should have to retire. It might not seem like a lot of competitions, but if you take a closer look at the schedule, it can be exhausting.

There is also strategy involved. Using Michelle as an example, she knows that she needs to up the difficulty of her programs and add 3/3's. She chose to use her time to train these elements and work on her programs instead of traveling all of the world. Sometimes you need to take two steps back in order to move forward. Skaters should have this freedom of choice.

ISU Letter

Just e- mailed my thoughts on Speedy's letter to the USFA. Basically I am on the side of the skaters and their right to prepare and compete in those events which they deem important to them. Unless they have signed a contract with an organization like baseball,football etc players do ,skaters should not be FORCED to compete in GP events. Speedy is just upset because the TV ratings s..., they are shown 2 to 3 weeks AFTER their completion and only on cable except for SA here in the USA on ABC TV. If it weren't for the underhanded tactics of the judges maybe the TV contracts would not have been so diminished. Speedy is just worried about getting enough money out of figure skating to use to supplement his precious speed skating.
It's a free world - skaters should not be held in bondage to the ISU.
You think the revenue is down now,,just try keeping the top skaters out of World's and Olympics. It could be the death knell for skating - it will be one of those sports relegated to a news article every 4 years during an OLG season.

Welcome Joan, MK, lise, and Tereza to Golden Skate.........I think we need a skating channel now more than ever, if for nothing more than to view the Grand Prix events in their entirety........perhaps this will promote a better appreciation and a more widely received viewing audience............42

no $ for invitationals

Sandee is right--skaters are not paid unless there is a "prize" money for placement--and that has gone down from, say, 50k for a 1st to 18k for example. ISU is allowed to offer "appearance" fees to top skaters to insure their appearance in REPRESENTING their member organization. They refused.

Also, the contract is with the member organization, not the individual skaters...and the member organizations, to my mind, get to develop a wide stable of top skaters---which they don't have incentive to do when one or two long-lived performers are there to constantly "tap" However, if they did more aggressively have a hand in developing their "stable" instead of constantly using only the top 2 or 3, or rewarding marginal "favorites" until they just fade away, they would not be in a "pickle" when it came to their top seeded skaters declining or having an injury....They would have more "known" skaters to pick from (b/c they would have a hand in helping them become known!) This sport is like any other, everyone wants to see the next big thing, along with their comfy old favorites. IMO, for instance, usfsa sometimes keeps their team envelopes full of semi-retired, injured, barely there skaters for years until they "allow" them to be bumped by skaters who are serious and active and already there "knocking on the door". I don't see the harm in having a wider range...no one seems to think there are too many ball players or drag racers or whatever...they seem to be able to follow many careers, many teams.

Also, good idea---let's get the speed skaters in on generating some bucks. In fact, I would love to see it on TV every once in a while. It is exciting, why should it be left to just an Olympic "blip" every 4 years on TV--like curling?

Doggygirl, in the letter from Cinquanta that you quoted, "members" are the national federations. The ISU is an association of fererations. No skater (indeed, no individual) is a member of the ISU. ISU contracts are between the ISU and the national federations.

I'm pretty sure (though I am no expert) that Skate Sandee is right about the nature of contracts that elite skaters and their agents negotiate with the USFSA. In any case, I do not see what status the ISU has to define what constitues "improper conduct" for skaters.

Skate Sandee's last point is the clincher, IMO. Speedy, whatever delusions of grandeur he might harbor, serves the member federations, not the other way around. (OT -- That, in my opinion, is why the ISU will never be able to prevent collusion among judges, nor be allowed to punish cheaters, who are protected by their federations.)

As for the employee analogy, maybe we should think of Michelle, Sasha and the rest as free lancers, LOL.

Mathman

I've felt for a long time that ISU should be dealing with individual skaters rather than federations - we live in an increasingly globalized world, so it makes sense. Clearly, though, the federations are necessary to help bring up new talent. What would, indeed, make sense is to put skaters under contract. If they skip an event, for whatever reason, they pay a reasonable fine. I am sure ISU could think up some insentives.