ISU Makes Threat To Member Nations Re. Skaters That Pulled Out of GP

Mathman said:

But seriously, I think in every form of entertainment, sports included, there is a certain pressure to send the crowd home happy. Non-USA skaters never win the the cheesefests, for instance -- who wants to tune in and see their favorite skater lose? (Except Plushenko, who is usually SO much better than everybody else that there is nothing anyone can do.) Mathman

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The judges are pressured?

Then why have a competition? If we know the winner beforehand, why not just put on a show like Mickey and Judy used to do. Now "That's Entertainment"

Joe

During the NHK telecast, it was mentioned that Johnny Weir was very popular in Japan. I don't know why that would be. In looking up his competitive history, I don't find any appearances in Japan. He won the 2001 World Junior Championship in Bulgaria, he appeared at the 2001 Goodwill Games in Brisbane, Australia, and his previous two GP events were in Canada and France.

Maybe the Japanese just like his skating---that doesn't seem so far-fetched.
Takeshi Honda hasn't lived in Japan for many years, and he was absent from competition last season. I don't think he'd be a heavy favorite there anyway, and he skated poorly.

It's interesting that Stefan Lindemann won the World Junior Championship when it was held in Germany, and his first and only World medal when the WCs were held in Germany

Joesitz said:

The judges are pressured?

Then why have a competition? If we know the winner beforehand, why not just put on a show like Mickey and Judy used to do. Now "That's Entertainment"

Joe

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It's human nature, Joe. As hard as the judges try to be impartial, they want everything to "turn out right," too. It's that way in every sport. The home team gets all the calls. I'm not saying it's right, but statistics bear it out.

It's like in Salt Lake City with Madam Le Gougne. At first she went with her Federation. Then eveybody booed, so she got all flustered and thought, oh no, I made a terrible mistake and started "confessing" right and left. Then she changed her mind back again. The human element.

Irina in Moscow, 2005!

Mathman

If it's human nature to want to please the home crowd, then it is human nature to be against the home crowd, too. Why bother competing? If you know these judges are going to a or b above then if I were a skater, I would not compete in a GP hosted by a country of which I am not a citizen of and which will have a top tier skater.

I think most judges are there to do their job.

Not all of them, by any means, but most, yes. Some judges were former skaters themselves where their previous governments made them elite citizens, and convinced them that winning was there most important job. I don't think that has rubbed off in several cases. There are other judges, who see a gang up against their 'hometown' skater and react defensively. We are hoping that the random drawing and hi/lo scores will take care of most of that.
Some judges see two foot landings; some don't. Think Kerrigan/Baiul.

As for cheesefests, I can see where you are coming from but it hasn't turned out just like that. I definitely think Sasha Cohen won that 2003 Campbells. Tim beat out Joubert this year, clearly, but there could be a question of Shizuka and Michelle but one Japanese judge gave it to Miki instead of Shizuka. He had his reasons, I suppose.

Joe

Joe, I think it's possible to come to a more or less fair technical mark. The second mark, for instance, implies a certain subjectivity. Even while CoP tries to standarize it -- how can you be 100% objective on "interpretation"? "Feeling/imagination of the structural design of the skater’s chosen music", "Expression of the music’s style and character" - those are subjective by definition. It's natural for judges to have an impression that if the audience is giving a skater the standing ovation, the program probably had good "feeling/imagination" and "expression".

euterpe said:

Although Slutskaya wasn't skating at home, the incredibly high scores SHE got at CoC were clearly based on reputation. According to posters who saw her performance, she skated very well, far better than she had last season, but not nearly as well as the inflated scores suggest. It well may be that Ando was marked down as part of the process of elevating Irina.

It may be a new scoring system, but the judges are still playing the same games they were before. Only now they can get away with it because their identities are protected.

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*Sigh* That makes me very sad. When is this judging system ever going to be fixed??? The ISU made a serious error when they protected the judges' identities. How could they not realize it gives the judges more inclination to cheat? Or did they?

Now I'm even more nervous for Moscow and it's even near yet.

Kuchana said:

How could they not realize it gives the judges more inclination to cheat? Or did they?

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I think the sole motive of the ISU was to prevent the scandal of judges getting caught.

MM

*Sigh* That makes me very sad. When is this judging system ever going to be fixed???

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That's just it....the judging system doesn't need to be fixed. The cheating judges do. Until the ISU takes action against cheating this type of thing will keep happening.

euterpe said:

During the NHK telecast, it was mentioned that Johnny Weir was very popular in Japan. I don't know why that would be. In looking up his competitive history, I don't find any appearances in Japan. He won the 2001 World Junior Championship in Bulgaria, he appeared at the 2001 Goodwill Games in Brisbane, Australia, and his previous two GP events were in Canada and France.

Maybe the Japanese just like his skating---that doesn't seem so far-fetched.
Takeshi Honda hasn't lived in Japan for many years, and he was absent from competition last season. I don't think he'd be a heavy favorite there anyway, and he skated poorly.

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From what I have heard, the Japanese will applaud any good skater, regardless of the nationality. At 2002 worlds Abt received a big ovation even though he was competing against Honda for the bronze (the judges gave it to Honda, but it was not due to crowd noise). So I am not surprised if Johnny is appreciated in Japan. May be his style is more in tune with the Japanese taste, compared to- for example, Plushenko's. Besides, there was no Japanese skater competing for a gold at NHK. Had there been one, my feeling is that the crowd would still have cheered for Johnny because he skated great.

I had always felt that the nationalistic feelings tend to abound more in N.America, but after seeing what happened in Germany at the 2004 worlds I am beginning to question that. Miki skated well enough to deserve high marks at NHK, so I don't see a crowd influence in giving marks, although being at home may have helped her skate better. In any case, there is nothing wrong in cheering for the home product. However, if that makes the judges give unfair marks that has to be discouraged.

Vash

Vash - In N.America, there are so many hyphenated Americans that it is very difficult to unify them. An act of war against the US will unite them, but a favorite ethnic skater from another country will be cheered by Amercians of that ethnic background. Perhaps this happens in Canada, S.Africa, Australia as well, but in each European country, they don't have such diversity among their people. Of course, there are diehard skating fans who don't care where their favorite skaters come from.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Vash - In N.America, there are so many hyphenated Americans that it is very difficult to unify them. An act of war against the US will unite them, but a favorite ethnic skater from another country will be cheered by Amercians of that ethnic background. Perhaps this happens in Canada, S.Africa, Australia as well, but in each European country, they don't have such diversity among their people. Of course, there are diehard skating fans who don't care where their favorite skaters come from.

Joe

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Joe,

I may be ignorant on this, but I have to disagree with you, given my knowledge of N.American fans. My impression is that Michelle Kwan is adored regardless of the ethnic origin of the fan. I don't think fans of Ina-Zimmerman, NNN, Naomi Lang & Peter T., Beatrissa Liang, Angela Nikodinov, Sasha Cohen, and so on really care for the ethnic origin of the skaters. The only likely case may be with Debi Thomas. Although she herself did not want to be viewed as the first AA to win an Olympic medal, some fans may make her 'special' in that regard. Tiffany Chin may have been an exception too (it was before my time) as she was among the first non-Caucasian US skaters. I don't think Tai & Randy were adored because of Tai's ethnic origin (which I did not even know until a few years ago). My impression has always been that the US audiences/fans will root for a US skater before a foreign skater. If some rooted for Oksana over Nancy, it had to do more with the tragedies in Oksana's young life than her ethnic origin (Ukrainian).

As far as Americans of ethnic origin rooting for a foreign skater that shares the ethnic origin with them, would most Chinese Americans root for S&Z over Scott & Dulebahn BECAUSE of the race? I don't think so. The difference is skills is too big. Would most Polish Americans root for Zagorska-Siudek before they would for Ina-Zimmerman (in the past) or Inoue-Baldwin (now)? I doubt it. However, as I said I am not very knowledgeable in this area, and may be you know better.

In Canada there is less diversity, so I don't think the people there would root for a skater based on the ethnic origin of the skater.

Vash

I have read a lot of threads at FSU, and never posted there, because there seems to be a lot of anti-American sentiment, in terms of audience, fans, etc. Americans are lazy, and appreciate simple, non-complicated performances in skating. Americans have little to no culture. Americans will root for THEIR skaters regardless of the talent or skill involved. Blah blah blah.

Please, to those who insist on doing it, stop the generalizations of an entire country. Yes, European, and Russian, and Asian cultures are OLDER and more established than American. It doesn't mean we don't HAVE any. And nationalism in sport is not a strictly AMERICAN thing.

In thinking about my favorite skaters over the last decade, NONE of them were or are American, and none other than Kurt Browning were even from North America. If that makes me an exception, so be it. But exceptions exist. And I'm sick about reading how stupid, classless, and fanatically nationalistic ALL Americans supposedly are.

UGH!

Kasey

Vash - I believe the ethnic backgrounds of many Americans are very strong and will go out to those whose origins are the same.

In your list of American skaters, I would say that Kwan has been a favorite of many Americans until Tara, Sasha, and Irina came along. In the case of Tara and Sasha, I have noticed that those who prefer Kwan would not care about the results of Tara and Sasha. I've also noticed that those who do not care about Kwan and are American are quite voiciferous against her. The threads are full of this and these are just Americans. The diversity is far greater than you think in the USA. Can you imagine Russian fans in Russia rooting for anyone but Irina? And yet I believe they would be happy if Irina were to lose it is better that another Russian win.

There are many Americans who are of Russian origin living in America, and happen to love figure skating. Irina is the perfect Russian lady to root for. I do not know of any Amercian ex-patriots living in Russia and if so, maybe they prefer things American. When I was watching La Pique Dame at the opera one evening and it was sung in English. A neighbor was complaining that they should have sung it in the original Russian. We laughed because the libretto was written in French, not Russian although Tschaikowsky wrote the score and the original story is the Queen of Spades. No matter, my mother hates to listen to Opera sung in English, and she is very American.

I love American skaters and root for them, but my all time favorites happen to be Kwan (of Chinese origin) and Kurt Browning (Canada). I have rooted for Kurt in all his competitions because I like his skating, and Kwan for the same reasons. Kurt never got an OGM and more than likely neither will Kwan, but that is not going to change my mind about how much I enjoy them above all others.
I think Sarah put that equation OGM=Best to rest.

Quite frankly, I think many American would root for S&Z because no one can touch them (and that's even if they lose the Olys.)

I think a lot of Americans did not like Nancy to begin with, and yes, the tough life Oksana had did win over a lot of Americans to her corner. Do you think any Russians cared for Nancy and what she went through with that awful publicity she didn't want? I don't think so.

For most Americans it was nice to see Tiffany, Tai, and Debi in the mix regardless of color. However, among Americans, if they were skating against a comparable skater other than of color, there could be less rooting for them.

My very best wishes for this Worlds goes to Stephane (Sui), Michele (US), S&Z (Chi), and D&S (Fra). Maybe they wont win but that's irrelevant to me. I also wish many other skaters from all over the world my best wishes, too. I think many Americans will have very best wishes for skaters not of my choice.

I reiterate, we are not united in our likes, and that alone, makes me happy.

Joe

Mathman said:

I think the sole motive of the ISU was to prevent the scandal of judges getting caught.

MM

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You don't say? Hmm...what the heck were the ISU thinking seriously? I just have deep suspicions about the ISU and further with this new system. I'm praying there's not going to be another scandal at Turino *knock on wood*

BravesSkateFan said:

That's just it....the judging system doesn't need to be fixed. The cheating judges do. Until the ISU takes action against cheating this type of thing will keep happening.

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You bring up a good point but I have to say this in response...when pigs fly Seriously. I don't think the cheating will stop in one way or another.

Vash01 said:

Joe,

I may be ignorant on this, but I have to disagree with you, given my knowledge of N.American fans. My impression is that Michelle Kwan is adored regardless of the ethnic origin of the fan.

As far as Americans of ethnic origin rooting for a foreign skater that shares the ethnic origin with them, would most Chinese Americans root for S&Z over Scott & Dulebahn BECAUSE of the race? I don't think so. The difference is skills is too big. Would most Polish Americans root for Zagorska-Siudek before they would for Ina-Zimmerman (in the past) or Inoue-Baldwin (now)? I doubt it. However, as I said I am not very knowledgeable in this area, and may be you know better.

Vash

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Well I have to be in some agreement with you Vash coming from my own experience. For instance, when I was first drawn to ice skating in '92 Olympics, I of course liked the Asian female skaters. Maybe because I'm Asian and I felt a commonality? Especially seeing an Asian on t.v.? Who knows? I just remember that whereas I didn't notice ice skating before, at that time I became more aware of it and since then I've been hooked. Funny thing is I was actually rooting for a non-American. Didn't care for Tonya Harding or Nancy Kerrigan. Kristi was ok but Midori was more my cup of tea. I really liked her style, her jumping, and her personality. And of course she was Asian, too So I guess all of those factors combined together gave me the incentive to root for her. However as I was watching the '92 Olympic pairs (no men's or ice dancing couples compelled my interest) I immediately picked out my favorites M&D. Loved them! And they were Russian! So that was the opposite with my liking for the ladies. Same went with the men's later when I finally started liking Todd Elderage and Philippe Canderlo later. And last but not least Yags

Then forward two years later. And bada-boom! Michelle came out. When Midori retired, I then turned to Michelle and of course she was Asian but we were also near the same age and I felt awed by her. Plus I was more drawn to her than I was ever to Midori. I feel kinda silly that while we were the same age practically, I regarded her as a role model. It was not only her being Asian but yes I'd have to admit that's the first thing that drew me to her automatically. But all of the other things as well combined with that drew me to her.

Maybe race does play a part sometimes in people choosing who to root for? I would attribute this to a feeling of commonality naturally in some cases. It didn't occur the same for me all the time but combined with other factors, I think I would be more likely to root for the skater. Another quick example. When M&D retired after '92,(darnit!) I didn't have a pairs to root for either until they came back in '94 then retired again (darnit!) Then they retired again and I didn't have a favorite to choose until S&Z came out. Although they were nowhere the same depth as now, I was intrigued because they were from China and China wasn't known to have any pairs teams at that time. Yet I wasn't completely drawn to them as I was with MK and M&D but I decided to wait and see how they would evolve. I wasn't drawn to them at first but eventually and since they've become my fav pair but it wasn't as instinctive as with M&D (who are still my fav pairs of all time).

So I think it depends on what kind of skater the person is and other factors. Race can be a starting point but not always in my case.

Err...I hope that didn't come off as racist and I hope what I said made sense

I think this part of the thread about being drawn to skaters of your own ethnic origin is really interesting. So, here's how it sort of applies to me.

I'm an American of French-Canadian / Irish origin. Here are my absolute favorites:
Johnny Weir
Michelle Kwan
Stephane Lambiel
Shen & Zhao
Belbin & Agosto
Pang & Tong
Plushenko
Jeff Buttle

the list goes on, but you get the jist (gist?) of it. I thought it would be cool to see whether or not I'm drawn to skaters of my own ethnicity (is that even correct when you're of European origin? Just wondering, my political correctness isn't that great.), and it appears that I'm not.

When I first began enjoying figure skating many years ago, I must admit my admiration was nationally biased. That was because we only saw snips of figure skating during Nationals and every four years during the Olympics. There was no internet, no figure skating magazines, no Grand Prix, the only skating shows were the ice capades, nothing with which to compare American skaters. It has only been recently that the world of figure skating has opened up media-wise, so that all the skaters can be enjoyed and admired. My all time fav pair skaters are not Americans but Sergei and Katia, followed closely now by the Chinese pair of S&Z. Paul Wylie is my all time fav male skate, but I love Kurt Browning's skating just as much and was thrilled when I got to see him skate last year.........42

I may be among the minority here. I almost don't even notice the race of a skater. I only notice the skating. In pairs I do like the Russian style more, but that has nothing to do with race (and I am not of Russian origin). My absolute favorite (ever) are B&S, G&G and M&D. I am not crazy about S&Z. I actually prefer T&M but I would not put them in the same bracket as my top 3.There is not a lot of diversity in my taste when in comes to pairs. It is different when it comes to singles. Among ladies I have liked all kinds of skaters, from Midori to Michelle, with many other races and styles in between (Irina, Oksana, Angela, Sasha, Shizuka, and Yukina). I did like Kristi and Yuka when they were competing in the pros. They just happened to have oriental origin (I am not oriental either). Among men, I liked Boitano, Orser, Wylie, Petrenko, Plushenko,Yagudin, Kulik, Weir- again, there is no pattern.

I am very surprised that some people may like/dislike certain skaters because of their ethnicity. Actually Sarah Hughes is Jewish. Is that a factor for some people (when it comes to comparisons with Michelle or Sasha)? May be we don't really have a melting pot.

Vash

Vash01 said:

I may be among the minority here. I almost don't even notice the race of a skater. I only notice the skating. In pairs I do like the Russian style more, but that has nothing to do with race (and I am not of Russian origin). My absolute favorite (ever) are B&S, G&G and M&D. I am not crazy about S&Z. I actually prefer T&M but I would not put them in the same bracket as my top 3.There is not a lot of diversity in my taste when in comes to pairs. It is different when it comes to singles. Among ladies I have liked all kinds of skaters, from Midori to Michelle, with many other races and styles in between (Irina, Oksana, Angela, Sasha, Shizuka, and Yukina). I did like Kristi and Yuka when they were competing in the pros. They just happened to have oriental origin (I am not oriental either). Among men, I liked Boitano, Orser, Wylie, Petrenko, Plushenko,Yagudin, Kulik, Weir- again, there is no pattern.

I am very surprised that some people may like/dislike certain skaters because of their ethnicity. Actually Sarah Hughes is Jewish. Is that a factor for some people (when it comes to comparisons with Michelle or Sasha)? May be we don't really have a melting pot.

Vash

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I've actually never disliked a skater because of their ethnicity. But I do immediately take note when I see an Asian skater. It's more as in "Wow, there's an Asian face on t.v." But as for me liking a skater because of their ethnicty (which isn't the only factor), I think it's due to how I was racially conscious in my childhood (I was adopted and raised predominately in a white and black environment. There are hardly any Asians around so naturally I would feel a sense of comfort from seeing an Asian face around me (which was almost never) and on t.v. (which is still a rarity by the way). So then since I see an Asian face on t.v., I would be pleasantly surprised. It's not a question of "Oh she/he/they are Asian so I'm going to root for them right off the bat" but if I like their style and expression in addition to that feeling of commonality. For instance, I didn't care that much for Lu Chen's skating even though she was Asian.

As for pairs, my ultimate fav of all time will always be M&D. It didn't matter to me what race they were. I was just enthralled with them when I first set eyes on them. Unfortuantely I've never followed a pairs as enthuastically since. S & Z cannot hold a candle to them Neither B & S. Funny thing is these are the only three pairs I like. I have no interest in pairs anymore since because none have been able to pique my interest. S & Z of course not only being Asian but their style, their expression, and technique yet as I've said before, M&D will always be my favorite unless there's another pairs that enchant me like they did. Plus I've noted how picky I am with pairs since I've only really liked one and like B&S and S&Z.

As for singles, my choices are far more various with MK being my sole fav above others. MK, Midori, Yuka S (not so much), IS, SA, & Angela. There might be others but I can't remember at the moment. I just don't care for Sarah's skating and it has absolutely nothing to do with her ethnicity. Not so much a pattern here.

As for mens, I don't care for any Asian skaters. My choice is first and foremost Yags, Elderage, and Stojko. No pattern here. Currently, I don't follow the men's amatuer skating since Elderage left.

INow do you see where I'm coming from? I hope my post didn't come off as offensive to some.