Trophee Eric Bompard - Results - Ladies Free Skate

Quote: Fumie, yes she is overall better, but the "is" will turn soon into "used to be". Fumie is still a great skater, but she struggles lately. She doesn't make any progress in the technical department, and the mistakes she makes, affect the overall performance level as well (she looks worried and labouring out there, she cannot skate free).


Hello? How long have you been into skating? Fumie always starts her seasons off in a crappy way (other than last year when she won GPF, beating Sasha, and then finished crappy at Worlds). I wouldn't say she's transitioning into a used to be good skater. Even an entire off year or two doesn't mean she's gone. Yes, when Fumie makes mistakes, it can get messy, I agree with you on that. I wouldn't count her out, a top ten finish at worlds isn't a bad thing. Certainly better than these Canadian girls that this board seems to love....

d12p said:

Rochette can't breakway from the plague either it seems. Kostner is also surely more accomplished than Rochette.

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Um, no. If that's what you think of her jumps, then I presume you have not see her skate.

d12p said:

Quote: Fumie, yes she is overall better, but the "is" will turn soon into "used to be". Fumie is still a great skater, but she struggles lately. She doesn't make any progress in the technical department, and the mistakes she makes, affect the overall performance level as well (she looks worried and labouring out there, she cannot skate free).


Hello? How long have you been into skating? Fumie always starts her seasons off in a crappy way (other than last year when she won GPF, beating Sasha, and then finished crappy at Worlds). I wouldn't say she's transitioning into a used to be good skater. Even an entire off year or two doesn't mean she's gone. Yes, when Fumie makes mistakes, it can get messy, I agree with you on that. I wouldn't count her out, a top ten finish at worlds isn't a bad thing. Certainly better than these Canadian girls that this board seems to love....

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1. I have been in this sport, let me see......Does Ondrej Nepela, Irina Rodnina, Ludmila Pachomova or Gabriele Seyfert say something ??
OK, that long

2. You are misreading my statements, I said Fumie will become "used to be a better skater than Joannie Rochette", that doesn't mean I am writing off Fumie, not at all, rather that Joannie Rochette is catching up on her.

Herios

alain707 said:

Is the reason SPEED or SPEEDY ?

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I suppose.....both!

While I agreed with your comments about speed, I completely disagree with this last sentence, particularly "so is Carolina"...
Fumie, yes she is overall better, but the "is" will turn soon into "used to be". Fumie is still a great skater, but she struggles lately. She doesn't make any progress in the technical department, and the mistakes she makes, affect the overall performance level as well (she looks worried and labouring out there, she cannot skate free).
Carolina, hhhmmm, did you actually see her performance in Dortmund, she placed 5th with ??? Well, let's get serious, that was not a top 5 performance, there were "Bambi" moments in that skate, she looked sometimes very "juniorish".
All 3 ladies behind her (Sebestyen, Suguri and yes Rochette) should've been placed higher.
I know she had a big lead after the SP, but the mistakes and her presentation were not up to that level she got credit for.
I have not seen Joannie's skate this year, but looking at the results, she must be doing something right. She has a well polished presentation, she has speed, power, height in jumps (except the lutz), she is connecting to the music... I don't know how many times you have seen her, but keep watching her, please, she will be going far! She has all it takes to get onto the world podium!

Herios

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i agree about Kostner at Worlds last year. i remember thinking even at the time that she deserved to be lower than at least 2 if not all of those 3 ladies you mentioned. but oh well...

Quote:

Um, no. If that's what you think of her jumps, then I presume you have not see her skate.




I have seen her skate. She jumps like Robinson, especially her lutz. Not a good thing.

I am happy that Joannie won her first GP event and has qualfied for the GPF. Our Canadian ladies are stepping on to the plate. If they continue to improve, we may be able to get 3 spots for Olympics and Worlds next year. Rochette, imo, if she skates like she did at TEB, will be on the podium at Worlds.

In terms of comparing her to Jen Robinson (who I like as a skater) in terms of jumps, since her technique is lot better and she doesn't double foot her jumps. Jen represented the country quite well, and although she didn't accomplish what she wanted internationally, took the heat off the younger skaters to develop at their own pace. All I know that at Nats, the battle in ladies will be fierce as Cynthia and Joannie are vying for the top spot and so many contending for the bronze.

Fumie is struggling this season and if she doesn't do well at her nationals, she isn't going to Worlds. There is a battle between Arakawa, Onda, Ando and her for the 3 spots.

I think the ladies program in Canada has finally turned the corner.

Lise

I have seen her skate. She jumps like Robinson, especially her lutz. Not a good thing.[/QUOTE]

That is completely false. I conclude that you have not seen them. End of debate.

Herios

lise said:

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Fumie is struggling this season and if she doesn't do well at her nationals, she isn't going to Worlds. There is a battle between Arakawa, Onda, Ando and her for the 3 spots.

Lise

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I would not count out Yukina Ota. She struggled at Skate America, but she is very unpredictable and a beautiful skater altogether. On a good day, she can rise up to the occassion and create havoc with the other favourites's chances.


Herios

I have not seen any skating at all yet this season so cannot comment on who is better than whom at the moment so the following are simply some comments based on my experience and opinions.

Speed is a very important factor to any skater but when high speed is used to disguse bad technique or a lack of choreogrphical difficulty then it becomes over-rated. Ice-dancers in particular tend to be guilty of this, for example FP&M, particularly Maurizio skated fast programs which tended to over awe the untrained eye and make their dances look more difficult than they actually were. Also Chait & Shaknovsky have often looked wild and uncontrolled when skating at their usual break-neck speed.

On the other hand when the speed is controlled it is a joy to watch a skater. The best example of this I can thin of at the moment is Alexander Abt, particularly his Armenian Melodies SP. I saw this live and I was awestruck by the speed and the sheer effortlessness by which he generated it. Never slowed down into jumps and carried the speed through the jump well to give beautiful deep running edges out of the jumps. And the circular step sequence, mostly fabulous edge work ,was so fast but clean and sharp.

I have also seen Corolina Kostner live a couple of times and while I agree that in some ways she is 'over-rated' by commentators and judges, I tend to agree with the general sentiment that she is a very talented skater with wonderful technique and great speed and the potential to be a great skater and possibly a champion of the future. In some ways she reminds me a bit of Urmanov. He had brilliant technique and when he was on form he was an amazing skater, unfortunately he didn't seem to be able to rescue jumps if his technique was slightly off which lead to inconsistancies and I think Carolina is similar. Also she is very young, just 17 and as such one should not expect that her skating would be very mature, very few skaters have mature programs or presentation at that age. Irina's skating did not mature until she was 19/20, Michelle's not until she was 16/17, Fumie, Susanna Poykio, Sokolova etc all in late teens, early twenties before their skating really matured.

diver chick said:

On the other hand when the speed is controlled it is a joy to watch a skater. The best example of this I can thin of at the moment is Alexander Abt, particularly his Armenian Melodies SP. I saw this live and I was awestruck by the speed and the sheer effortlessness by which he generated it. Never slowed down into jumps and carried the speed through the jump well to give beautiful deep running edges out of the jumps. And the circular step sequence, mostly fabulous edge work ,was so fast but clean and sharp.

I have also seen Corolina Kostner live a couple of times and while I agree that in some ways she is 'over-rated' by commentators and judges, I tend to agree with the general sentiment that she is a very talented skater with wonderful technique and great speed and the potential to be a great skater and possibly a champion of the future. In some ways she reminds me a bit of Urmanov. He had brilliant technique and when he was on form he was an amazing skater, unfortunately he didn't seem to be able to rescue jumps if his technique was slightly off which lead to inconsistancies and I think Carolina is similar. Also she is very young, just 17 and as such one should not expect that her skating would be very mature, very few skaters have mature programs or presentation at that age. Irina's skating did not mature until she was 19/20, Michelle's not until she was 16/17, Fumie, Susanna Poykio, Sokolova etc all in late teens, early twenties before their skating really matured.

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Abt was a very talented skater, with 3 strikes of the blade he was across the ice from one side to the other, and yes, it looked effortless.
Maturity can be developed ahead of time. There are some examples which are bursting onto the scene, and have the appearance of a champion, well beyond their age. One was "Flutzy - Sarah Hughes" while overrated technically, she was not skating like a teenager, that is for sure. Michelle was another one.
Cynthia Phaneuf and Yukina Ota are again, new examples of very young girls showing mature presentation. But I agree, there are not too many.

Herios

That is completely false. I conclude that you have not seen them. End of debate.

Herios




Hah! Right. I have two videos of Rochette from COC. I just watched them as a refresher. She has a Robinson lutz.

Herios - Abt was a very special skater. He was one whose natural talent was somewhat prevented from being all that it could be because of injuries. But when it came to basics, he is among the few who know what figure skating is all about. It goes beyond quads and bielman spins.

Joe

d12p said:

That is completely false. I conclude that you have not seen them. End of debate.

Herios




Hah! Right. I have two videos of Rochette from COC. I just watched them as a refresher. She has a Robinson lutz.

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You mind telling us what the definition of a Robinson lutz or that of a Robinson jump is?

If you were to watch the two lutzs side by side, they would look nearly identical. I'm not sure that it even matters, I'm just trying to say that Rochette is overrated, being dubbed some goddess of Canadian Figure Skating who will save the Canadian ladies.

I seirously have no idea what you are talking about You think she's overrated because she has a bad lutz?

But yeah, my point is Rochette is one of the best and most natural jumpers in the world, a Canadian godess or not.

I seirously have no idea what you are talking about You think she's overrated because she has a bad lutz?

But yeah, my point is Rochette is one of the best and most natural jumpers in the world, a Canadian godess or not.




I wouldn't go so far as to say she is one of the most natural jumpers. What about

Ando, Onda, Mao Asada, Mai Asada, Carolina Kostner, Julia Sebastyen, Irina Slutskaya, Sasha Cohen, Ludmilla Nedlina and Yukari Nakano....I could probably keep going. These girls are all much naturally talented jumpers than Rochette.

Naturally gifted jumpers

It seems that some skaters are naturally gifted jumpers. Some skaters are naturally gifted edge jumpers (salcow, loop) and some are naturally gifted toe jumpers (toe loop, flip, lutz) and some are naturally gifted axel jumpers (forward take off). Of course, some skaters are natural at all the different types of jumps.

Natural jumpers of all kinds would include Brian Boitano, Midori Ito, Surya Bonaly and Tonya Harding.

Natural edge jumpers include Yuka Sato, Tara Lipinski, Eric Millot, Kurt Browning, for example.

Natural toe jumpers include Viktoria Volchkova, Julie Sebestyen, Angela Nikodinov, Chenjeng Li, Chen Lu (the way she did delayed triple lutzes and flips was amazing), for example.

I am sure there are numerous other examples of the different type of naturally gifted jumpers.

d12p said:

I seirously have no idea what you are talking about You think she's overrated because she has a bad lutz?

But yeah, my point is Rochette is one of the best and most natural jumpers in the world, a Canadian godess or not.




I wouldn't go so far as to say she is one of the most natural jumpers. What about

Ando, Onda, Mao Asada, Mai Asada, Carolina Kostner, Julia Sebastyen, Irina Slutskaya, Sasha Cohen, Ludmilla Nedlina and Yukari Nakano....I could probably keep going. These girls are all much naturally talented jumpers than Rochette.

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There seems to be no point continuing this conversation at this point. I'm convinced you have not seen Rochette skate.

Ok. Enough with this crap Everybody is entitled to their opinion.


Everybody jumps in his or her own way. Through the years they try to develop their jumps so that they will become better. It is clear that Joannie Rochette has developed her jumps so that it will coincide with the COP. Carolina Kostner has also taken some risks to perform triple-triple combos. Shizuka and Miki have all done the same and i hear Michelle Kwan is working on a triple-triple combo. It will be since 2002 Olympic Games since Michelle did a triple-triple.

The bottom line is that everybody jumps in their own way. Time will tell whether they will get better. I have no disrespect for any of the skaters. They all have their own unique abilites