Pre-rotate vs Under-rotate

chopinskate said:

So we need to establish a point where the jump starts before measuring these things? And the ISU needs to step it up and prescribe that in its guidelines? And it hasn't yet? Isn't this what a lot of people usually complain about, not just in relation to their faves vs non-faves as you say?

Click to expand...

I'm not saying every person is making it about their faves vs. non-faves but let's be honest here. You look at which skaters some posters say should be deducted, and then see what skaters they typically extol, and it's pretty apparent there's a correlation ... such that for some of them, the evident intention isn't calling for clearer rules about measuring moreso than calling for specific skaters to be penalized.

Just look at some posters who consistently whine that skaters like Uno and Miyahara should be deducted, and see if they've ever posted anything specifically calling for the rules to be more clear in terms of what constitutes a UR jump. For them, evidently it's not about establishing clarity in the rules - it's about hoping their faves will have it easier by advocating for their rivals to get docked more points.

I really don’t mind Pre rotation that much anymore as long as the landing is obviously clean. Heck UR jumps don’t even bug me that much if they land it. I’d even be alright with negative GOE being the sole form of punishment for rotational issues.

Any obvious PR or UR or PR+UR should have language encouraging negative GOE based on the severity of the rotational issue. I’m good with giving the judges the freedom to judge the severity of the error and score it accordingly based on how it impacted the overall jump and program in general.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I'm not saying every person is making it about their faves vs. non-faves but let's be honest here. You look at which skaters some posters say should be deducted, and then see what skaters they typically extol, and it's pretty apparent there's a correlation ... such that for some of them, the evident intention isn't calling for clearer rules about measuring moreso than calling for specific skaters to be penalized.

Just look at some posters who consistently whine that skaters like Uno and Miyahara should be deducted, and see if they've ever posted anything specifically calling for the rules to be more clear in terms of what constitutes a UR jump. For them, evidently it's not about establishing clarity in the rules - it's about hoping their faves will have it easier by advocating for their rivals to get docked more points.

Click to expand...

But as you’ve already said, the rules for UR jumps are plenty clear, so there’s no need.

cohen-esque said:

But as you’ve already said, the rules for UR jumps are plenty clear, so there’s no need.

Click to expand...

Sorry I meant they weren't calling for specificity in pre-rotation rules. Only saying skaters like Uno and Miyahara should be docked points on their jumps (and not always specifying which jumps, at that).

UR rules are much more clear although as I said the jury is still out as to what is considered the point of landing (when the toe touches the ice, the ball of the blade, the majority of blade, etc.)

Isu has long deleted the jump instruction video with 3A animated motion on YouTube. Those videos were ugly though.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Just look at some posters who consistently whine that skaters like Uno and Miyahara should be deducted, and see if they've ever posted anything specifically calling for the rules to be more clear in terms of what constitutes a UR jump.

Click to expand...

Hmmm...I tried and tried but couldn't figure out who you're thinking about. Everyone I know on this forum who complains about prerotation also is quick to point out URs and wrong edges and other technique issues, too. It is a sport, after all. Some people care about the technical side of things. And want to talk about it. Why else have a skating forum that allows multiple threads?

Really, sometimes I wonder if you're reading a completely different forum than me, haha.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

For them, evidently it's not about establishing clarity in the rules - it's about hoping their faves will have it easier by advocating for their rivals to get docked more points.

Click to expand...

I think it's rather about wishing that some skaters don't have it easier by...well, prerotating and getting the same points for easier jumps. Just a guess.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Nobody gets "rewarded" for prerotation - skaters do not get extra BV or higher GOE when they do prerotated jumps compared to them doing those same jumps regularly rotated. You can say "skaters are not getting deducted for pre-rotated jumps", but it is incorrect to say they are being "rewarded" for pre-rotation.

Click to expand...

You perfectly understood what I meant. But but since you like playing the teacher, keep on.

yume said:

You perfectly understood what I meant. But but since you like playing the teacher, keep on.

Click to expand...

Marking pre-rotation on jumps is one of the next steps that the IJS could take to improve the technical side further. It's a wonder why the ISU ignores the issue if they do indeed care so much about skaters achieving full rotation in the air.

I don't actually think it would take so much more time for the technical panel to review pre-rotation on top of their current duties considering that they look at edge calls anyway. A jump that has more than 180 degrees of pre-rotation could be given a 'p' call with a negative GOE reduction suggested, unless they want to go through the '>>' and '>' route (as an analog to the '<' and '<<' under-rotation calls).

I wonder if one of the reasons the ISU don't care so much for pre-rotation is due to their support for all of the quads in men's skating now. Marking for pre-rotation might reveal just how many quad attempts are wildly under-rotated merely due to the fact that, as coach Frank Carroll would say, higher difficulty jumps require more pre-rotation to execute.