Best Quality and Biggest Flaw | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Best Quality and Biggest Flaw

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
I honestly think she skates and interpretes better than 98% of current senior ladies. I really don't see what you are talking about, but well, if somebody sees her flaws, I hope she keeps on developing. Her programs this year are not the best to showcase her abilities though.

She has above-average skating skills (especially for her age) and fantastic deportment — naturally elegant, lovely lines, knows how to hold a position (inasmuch as the choreo will allow) — but her performance and interpretation are still relatively immature/lacking. Which is normal: she’s young, R&J Leo voiceovers should be banned unless you’re going to go all in a la Junhwan Cha, and she’s literally the same age I was when the original Shakespeare was assigned in my literature class... and it was a much-repeated joke among the teachers that we had no ability to connect with the material and would have been better off with Hamlet (as we could relate to his emo-kidness).

Kostornaya is very talented, but in terms of interpretation and presentation, she’s no Satoko (and I am not a fan of Satoko) or even Kaori Sakamoto (who has a natural warmth and charisma that brings you into her performances, though Kostornaya is more inherently graceful). She isn’t a bad performer, but her performances have a slightly rehearsed and “absent the soul” quality that’s largely a product of youth, but she has potential. Her interpretation doesn’t feel original, in the sense that her movements don’t feel as though they’re originating from her and her sense of how the music should be expressed; she’s projecting when she performs, but she’s not 100% present while performing just yet. Again, immense talent and this is more to do with age/experience/finding and developing a unique artistic voice. There’s a bit of an over-rehearsed quality to her performances, sort of like what happens with Bradie Tennell — the dramatic gestures and faces aren’t organic to the moment but a product of rehearsing emotion, except Kostornaya is a better basic skater and performer than Tennell (she just has inherent gifts that Tennell doesn’t) and Kostornaya will become stronger in the next few years as she comes more fully into her own.
 

Henni147

Final Flight
Joined
May 1, 2017
Yuzuru Hanyu: BF - Lack of rhythm comparatively. Tends to skate to similar style programs and repeats choreographic elements.
Yuzuru Hanyu BF: likes recycling way too much, poor posture when tired
Yuzuru Hanyu: BF = Injury prone, narrow range of programmes

When repetition is your biggest flaw :laugh2:



I've taken a closer look at his competitive programs since seniors and I would classify them as follows:

Classic: Etude in D-sharp, Ballade No. 1, Otonal
Musical: Notre Dame de Paris, Phantom of the Opera
Drama/ filmscore: Romeo & Juliet (1.0 & 2.0)
Japanese taiko/ filmscore: Seimei
Japanese classic/orchestral/piano: White Legend, Hope & Legacy
Gypsy/ violin: Zigeunerweisen
Blues-Rock: Parisienne Walkways
Rock-Pop: Let's go crazy
Easy listening/ violin: Origin

What's missing?
- Some real dance actually (standard/latin/modern dance...)
- Other unused music styles: R&B/Soul, Jazz, Hardrock/Metal, Folk, Epic Orchestral, Country, Bollywood...
- Comedy or parody (I would really like to see him skate a parody of himself tbh... :laugh:)
 

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
Classic: Etude in D-sharp, Ballade No. 1, Otonal
Musical: Notre Dame de Paris, Phantom of the Opera
Drama/ filmscore: Romeo & Juliet (1.0 & 2.0)
Japanese taiko/ filmscore: Seimei
Japanese classic/orchestral/piano: White Legend, Hope & Legacy
Gypsy/ violin: Zigeunerweisen
Blues-Rock: Parisienne Walkways
Rock-Pop: Let's go crazy
Easy listening/ violin: Origin
Real talk, Ballade 3.0 is closer to Parisienne Walkways than Otonal. The real overlap between Otonal and Ballade is the jump layout (4S, 3A, 4T-3T), except Ballade was supposed to be done with the 4Lo, not the 4S, and the spins are placed differently between the two programmes. (Don’t even get me started on the step sequence construction....) The actual similarity across Etude, PW, Ballade, and Otonal is that all share the blue top/black pants attire.

But for real, I’m kind of tired of hearing that Otonal and Ballade are the same programme set to different music — it’s the kind of statement that I understand on a superficial level, but on a deeper (and more sarcastic) one, it should be automatically disqualifying from commenting on interpretation and choreography. Maybe it was just an unhappy coincidence that I happened to have infusions during the Olympics, which meant I had a chance to watch Ballade eighty times while stuck in the hospital for 4+ hours, but regardless — the attitude of Ballade 3.0 is triumphant, not melancholy. It’s very much a “master of my universe, king of my domain” statement piece: it begins with the delayed head roll into that stare, the simple push away from center ice with leg extended, an absolute liquidity in movement (upper body calm, shoulders at ease but not slumped) as the steps into the 4S begin. The outside to inside spread eagle with hands aloft is almost tossed off, not melancholy or pensive but entirely relaxed, an almost shrug of “Ah, see what I can do?” — the calmness and surety of the edges a juxtaposition to the acrobatic feat that just occurred. The step sequence, with the hands drawing the eyes open, is meant to invoke the classic “mad genius” archetype, and the speed of the initial two thirds or so of the pattern is an artist throwing paint onto canvas and accidentally creating a masterpiece, a writer grabbing a pen and scribbling a note that’s pure poetry. The deceleration of speed in the last third, with the arms languid and the hand brushed past the back of the head, the twizzles that are done with such ease that they’re almost a shrug... it’s an artist’s manifesto, a virtuoso showing off without meaning to. Oh. Does this amuse you? I can do this as well. But Ballade is not a melancholy piece or programme — it’s a swaggering one, much closer to PW than Otonal. (And both Ballade 3.0 and PW have that belt-touch moment.)

The jumps in Otonal are, yes, the same as in Ballade, and even come in the same order. That’s about as similar as they are, in my opinion. Even the way the jumps are distributed is different, and it serves an actual purpose: whereas the jumps in Ballade were buried almost as long as possible (to heighten the tension for the audience, to remind us that we’re watching a master at work and he will give us only what he wants to, when he wants to), but in Otonal, the 4S and 3A draw on the melancholy and sparseness of the music, almost literally “traveling” backward through memories. As the music builds, we have the spins, fingers drawing out each note, and then as it swells: the step sequence, running forward with abandon (hydroblade to one foot Axel, y’all), the melancholy of nostalgia not diminished but accepted, giving way to catharsis. The build of the two programmes is different in structure and the mood each invokes is wildly different — I find Otonal to be wistful, more delicate, a much slower burn and one that makes wonderful use of “negative space” in the first half, while Ballade 3.0 is beautiful, but not melancholy. Ballade leaves me awed and feeling like a tightened bowstring afterward, whereas Otonal is more the sense of rereading a well-loved poem.

Also, yes. I know that was pretentious as all get out. Sorry.

Layouts being similar was inevitable up until this season, due to all jumps in the backhalf being rewarded with the 10% BV bonus and the simple fact that X number of quads meant Y distribution, especially in the free skate. Every 3-4 quad guy was doing Quad 1, Quad 2, triple in the front half, then Quad 3 and Quad 4 to start the second half. Because of how the math worked, Yuzuru’s layout was what it was (sing along, we all know the words!) — but if you think Seimei and Hope & Legacy are the same programme outside of sharing a similar basic structure, we need to talk. I’m actually agnostic on front- and back- loading since either is an entirely valid artistic choice, but in terms of points, only one of those two was rewarded. (The second half bonus really did need to be altered, as too many programmes were clearly designed around points first and performance second, not organically choreographed with the jumps distributed to fulfill both artistic vision and what a skater was physically capable of.)

Yuzuru does perform a one-handed hydroblade and an Ina Bauer in most of his recent choreographic sequences. Yes, that’s repetitive. Is it more or less repetitive than Kwan’s signature spiral? I kind of feel like this is one of those “heads I win, tails you lose” issues, as if he took out the hydroblade (or incorporated it as a transition, as he’s doing this season, rather than making it A Moment in the choreo sequence), there would be complaints, because people expect to see moves skaters are known for. If he does the hydroblade, then it’s “repetitive.” I feel like it’s a signature element and not a sign of lack of choreo ideas (see: hydroblade as spin entrance), and it isn’t like he performs those signature elements off the music (I love you, Yuna, but that 2A entry did not need to be in every programme and sometimes was just flat-out not a natural fit with the music).

But, yes, he repeats blue top/black pants in the short programme. I’ll give people that. [emoji23]

What's missing?
- Some real dance actually (standard/latin/modern dance...)
Hope & Legacy is modern. Enough to qualify as checking that bullet, maybe not, but the choreography draws from modern dance. PW could arguably count as well.

- Other unused music styles: R&B/Soul, Jazz, Hardrock/Metal, Folk, Epic Orchestral, Bollywood...
oh lord I love Yuzu but let’s leave Metallica to Kolyada, since he kills it, and not go the awkward cultural appropriation route of some of these other paths... (I’m Arab — bellydancing on ice has gotten very, very old)
- Comedy or parody (I would really like to see him skate a parody of himself tbh... [emoji23])
LGC is easily my least favourite programme of his but I’m pretty sure it was done somewhat tongue in cheek. Which is part of why it never worked for me — some people aren’t good at that kind of performance/humour. Boyang is someone who can be a bit silly but never actually make himself into the the joke, which is an incredibly thin tightrope to walk. If you’re too serious and/or competitive, trying to go for humour can give you the worst of both worlds: no laughter, just an aura or Well That Was Awkward, and everyone (performer and audience) feeling vaguely embarrassed. Don’t see comedy working for Yuzu (well, not intentional comedy). I... am a hyper-competitive jerkwad myself and I cannot get out of my own way enough to rock out like Boyang or Brezina. Does not work. There are no tapes or anything. *whistles along*

(Also, sorry for ranting at you about the difference between Ballade and Otonal. I’ve just read too many remarks about how they’re the same and now the comments in here about repetition... I think Yuzu has a strong and diverse body of work, but that cause and effect are being mixed up at times — hard for any of these guys to offer much new in their spins given how spin levels work, for example.)
 

Atlantis

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
If anyone who doesn't care for her interpretation feels differently, feel free to correct me, but this year I feel like people are perhaps taking more issue with her interpretation of the Romeo and Juliet program. It was a great idea in theory, but I think it was maybe a mistake to give it to her knowing how many great interpretations there are out there of the music. Alena is still great, in my opinion, and she's moved me to tears, but I don't really get R&J from her performance. I think she's getting better though.

In my opinion, her R&J is among the worst Daniil programs ever, so I was actually impressed when I realised that she actually made it watchable for me. And I find her last season's free skates to be better by miles because the program was actually good. She was definitely better in interpretation too, so I know she is capable of much more. I know that some great performes can pull off anything but that's a rare talent and I don't want to hold everyone to that standard, especially the junior.

In short, I don't think flaws in interpretation here are her fault. It's just that this version of R&J is very weak. She is doing the most with what she has been given.

Kostornaya is very talented, but in terms of interpretation and presentation, she’s no Satoko (and I am not a fan of Satoko) or even Kaori Sakamoto (who has a natural warmth and charisma that brings you into her performances, though Kostornaya is more inherently graceful). She isn’t a bad performer, but her performances have a slightly rehearsed and “absent the soul” quality that’s largely a product of youth, but she has potential. Her interpretation doesn’t feel original, in the sense that her movements don’t feel as though they’re originating from her and her sense of how the music should be expressed; she’s projecting when she performs, but she’s not 100% present while performing just yet. Again, immense talent and this is more to do with age/experience/finding and developing a unique artistic voice. There’s a bit of an over-rehearsed quality to her performances, sort of like what happens with Bradie Tennell — the dramatic gestures and faces aren’t organic to the moment but a product of rehearsing emotion, except Kostornaya is a better basic skater and performer than Tennell (she just has inherent gifts that Tennell doesn’t) and Kostornaya will become stronger in the next few years as she comes more fully into her own.

Oh, I see. She is indeed a bit juniorish. But it just doesn't bother me (I don't see much of it anyway), so I didn't even consider that some people see it as "the biggest flaw". As you said that's just a product of youth/lack of experience. And even if her skating is a bit juniorish I still find her interpretation of last season's programs more enjoyable than many senior ladies. Maybe I like something that comes naturally from her interpretation, even if it's not very mature.
 

Atlantis

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
But for real, I’m kind of tired of hearing that Otonal and Ballade are the same to different music — it’s the kind of statement that I understand on a superficial level, but on a deeper (and more sarcastic) one, it should be automatically disqualifying from commenting on interpretation and choreography.

Thank you for in-depth analysis. I will never know why people think he is doing the same every year when it's just not true. Not even on a superficial level as he has skated to many different musical genres. He leans more towards lyrical stuff, blue color, hydroblade+ina bauer in free skate. But that's about it. I don't even want to count spins because skaters don't usually experiment a lot with them.
 

Crossover

All Hail the Queen
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Satoko Miyahara
Biggest quality: unmatched musicality and attention to detail
Biggest flaw

Alina Zagitova
Biggest quality: beautiful rippon flip right on the music
Biggest flaw

Maria Sotskova
Biggest quality: wonderful straight back and general posture
Biggest flaw

Carolina Kostner
Biggest quality: purity of edges and turns
Biggest flaw

Ashley Wagner
Biggest quality: engaging showmanship
Biggest flaw

This is fun!

So hilarious. This must be the post of the year in my book! :laugh2:
 

TallyT

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
The actual similarity across Etude, PW, Ballade, and Otonal is that all share the blue top/black pants attire.
I guess it's like Monet, all those waterlilies, so restrictive and reptitive (speaketh someone with a Monet Waterlilies calender on the corkboard in front of her)

I would just like to know which skating god, taking pity on their favourite champion/whipping boy, whispered something to him about repeating last year being a good idea in the end... I mean, I have little doubt he would have stormed home anyway at the Olympics, but given what he was going through, muscle memory must have helped.
 

Rissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
LGC is easily my least favourite programme of his but I’m pretty sure it was done somewhat tongue in cheek. Which is part of why it never worked for me — some people aren’t good at that kind of performance/humour.

I don't think it was done somewhat tongue in cheek, I think it was full-on tongue in cheek. It was not rock, it was camp-rock. Campy costume, campy choreo, campy performance: throwing yourself on your knees, skipping, headbanging at the audience, etc. For me it worked like a charm.

I agree that straight-up comedy like Javier's programs would just fall flat in Hanyu's hands, though. If he had any talent for it, he'd have done it in exhibition by now.

And I thought I overthink some programs! :laugh:
 
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