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Thread: New Season, New Rules, & Judging: Singles and Pairs

  1. #41
    Here for the High Lord of Extra TallyT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harriet View Post
    And any choreographer who's worked with senior women before already knows how to fit seven jumping passes, three spins, a step sequence and a choreographic sequence into four minutes.
    Actually I suspect that it's at least partly mind and muscle memory that is causing problems (well okay, for folk like Yuzu it's also he probably doesn't want to let go of any of the packed program, but at least it appears he has thought it through). Not that they have to squeeze more in or drop moves off, just that they have to work though what it really means until it becomes second nature, mind-and-muscle-and-bone-deep.

    It's easy to say "drop half a minute and streamline what you have been doing" but these guys have been pounding the four and a half physically and mentally day in day out all their competitive lives, it's going to take a while for what the change means to really sink in and for both mind and body to get used to the change so they don't have to consciously think about it being different. Because that conscious thinking about it - as anyone who's had to drastically change a physical habit that is that ingrained will know - can be draining in itself.

    Give the guys time, folks. They'll get there...

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harriet View Post
    And any choreographer who's worked with senior women before already knows how to fit seven jumping passes, three spins, a step sequence and a choreographic sequence into four minutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by temadd View Post
    Haven't the women been doing their programs this way (4 mins, 7 jumping passes) for years? Granted most don't to quads but still . . .
    Quads make all the difference. Setup for quads are longer. Require a bit more down-time before recovering concentration and launching into the next element.

    Shoma Uno's FS is empty. So was Kolyada's. I take it that it's because they have no time for transitions. Boyang Jin's FS was a compete mess, falls/mistakes in the first part and no recovery on the second part. Aliev forgot to jump an Axel. Like, how to you forget your jump layout? Now, I fear to think what Nathan's 6-quad program will look like. Just skating around from jump to jump, probably.

  3. #43
    All Hail the Queen Crossover's Avatar
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    To the question, definitely yes. The men's competitions last week look quite a disaster with the time reduction even though I don't forget this is very early in the season.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post

    Here we go:

    1) JGP event in Kaunas
    Trusova's 4Lz https://youtu.be/eJ3GvpMh_cE?t=312 marked as UR here http://www.isuresults.com/results/se..._FS_Scores.pdf
    a) beginning of a jump (to determine direction) http://fastpic.ru/view/103/2018/0908...1e723.jpg.html
    b) prerotation and toe pick phase http://fastpic.ru/view/103/2018/0908...115a2.jpg.html
    c) landing http://fastpic.ru/view/103/2018/0908...d37d5.jpg.html

    I would say 45-80 degree at worst. It's a shame Sasha was robbed of her historical achievement just because of it. Technical Controller Ms. Ekaterina SEROVA

    2) JGP event in Richmond
    Scherbakova's 4Lz https://youtu.be/lkI1vQw_Ckk?t=301 or in slo-mo https://streamable.com/1d6gk marked as UR here http://www.isuresults.com/results/se..._FS_Scores.pdf
    direction of a jump http://i99.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0915/...f0481f8d36.png
    frames before the landing
    a) https://s8.postimg.cc/gndg1d8ol/image.png
    b) https://s8.postimg.cc/nqlbh0gp1/image.png
    c) https://s8.postimg.cc/72tten3yt/image.png

    First two pics are from when body is still in the air. Again I would say 30-60 degrees at worst.

    3) Sherbakova's flips were marked as having flat edges in the protocol above
    a) beginning of a jump http://i101.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0915...83d009bab8.png
    b) beginning of prerotation phase of a jump (her leg is in the air already) http://i103.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0915...f5fe7b2c18.png

    5 frames of her flip jump
    http://i102.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0916...512b70af28.jpg
    http://i102.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0916...9493b35a5e.jpg
    http://i102.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0916...3f74bea76c.jpg
    http://i102.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0916...8165632a21.jpg
    http://i102.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0916...add58bb288.jpg

    First 4 frames are having clear inside edge while 5th is in a middle of a take off phase already. What makes this artificial "mistakes" even worse is the fact that there were tons of other skaters with true lips and flat edges - which were ignored. Technical Controller Ms. Kari-Anne OLSEN

    P.S.: actually I am almost sure now that there is some unspoken order among ISU judges to not let russian girls get clean 4Lz ever. I won't be surprised if Sasha's clean 4Lz in Slovenia, JGPF and JWC as well as possible Anna's 4Lz will not be ratified either.
    Conspiracy theory about how Russian girls are underscored? Now I've seen everything.

    That flip looks like a bad case of a floop, by the way.
    Last edited by gsk8; 09-16-2018 at 10:03 PM. Reason: Adding quote for organization due to thread merge

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rissa View Post
    Conspiracy theory about how Russian girls are underscored? Now I've seen everything.
    I am afraid it's not even a theory but very plausible case. As well as some Canadian skaters overscoring which, I suppose, so comfortable for you that you prefer just don't notice it. For example let's take last Gogolev FP:
    https://youtu.be/8JJz3H9geCs
    Here is his protocol fixed to what it should be looked like if judged fairly (i.e. at least 20 points lower only on BV scale and at least 40 points lower if we consider GOEs/PCS overscoring)
    http://i103.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0917...fd7cd41a18.png

    If you compare amount of efforts and training to skate like this and like Scherbakova/Trusova and than compare their scores.. I think any respected fs fan should feel indignation.
    Why very solid, rotated ladies quads marked as UR while awful, lazy, sloppy Gogolev's "quads" marked as clean? It's just unfair and blatant gender discrimination. Why they should bother to exert tremendous amounts of work and risk to train quads - if nobody wants to appreciate them properly?
    That flip looks like a bad case of a floop, by the way.
    It wasn't about a floop however - it was about supposed flat edge which was blatant lie. If you don't know what to say - don't try to change the topic to other issues. Poor take off technique should be punished by GOEs if judges feel it's deserved - wrong tech calls such as this is not a solution.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    I am afraid it's not even a theory but very plausible case. As well as some Canadian skaters overscoring which, I suppose, so comfortable for you that you prefer just don't notice it. For example let's take last Gogolev FP:
    https://youtu.be/8JJz3H9geCs
    Here is his protocol fixed to what it should be looked like if judged fairly (i.e. at least 20 points lower)
    http://i103.fastpic.ru/big/2018/0917...fd7cd41a18.png

    If you compare amount of efforts and training to skate like this and like Scherbakova/Trusova and than compare their scores.. I think any respected fs fan should feel indignation.
    Oh, please, and I bet who ever made that edit was waxing melancholic over Shcherbakova's 4Lz< even as they handed out their own bogus calls left and right. You can watch the jumps in real time, in the slow-mo review where applicable, or even go frame-by-frame, and come to the same conclusions as the technical panel. The only, single jump call I would change is to give him 3Lo<, and not 3Lo<<, which is absurd.

    As for the spins, maybe someone else can chime in, since the real tech panel doesn't just consist of one person (watching better-quality, up-close video footage from a different angle). To me it looks like he did:

    CCoSp4
    1. Difficult variation (sit sideways)
    2. Difficult variation (A-spin)
    3. Difficult variation (sit behind)
    4. Difficult variation (crossfoot, though not totally sure I'd count it)


    FCCoSp4
    1. Difficult flying entrance
    2. Difficult variation (upright camel)
    3. Change of foot by jump
    4. Difficult variation (Y-spin)


    That's four features for both spins, with two features on each foot, hence the Level 4 calls.

    As a fan who has the ability to read the ISU's published explanations of the judging system and occasionally to discuss them with judges and officials, and to make a good faith effort to understand how and why scores are handed out, I do feel quite indignant when I see protocol "fixes" like that, which were obviously made by a malicious "fan" who understood exactly what they were doing, and then see them disseminated with uncritical acceptance by fans who couldn't care less about accurate or quality judging, but who just want to support their biased agendas at all costs and don't mind how much negativity they spread to do it.

  7. #47
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    Sasha's 4Lz looks short, but Anna's doesn't, though hers is definitely excessively prerotated. Perhaps that's what contributed to the call? If so, that does represent a deviation from normal judging practice, since I don't think skaters usually get dinged for pre-rotation, even though it's in the rules. However, if that's the case, I would say the unfairness is more that other skaters (including many men) don't get penalized, not that Anna does. Overall, my impression is that the ladies' quads are being subject to higher scrutiny than the men's, so it *is* unfair, but I'd prefer that men's calls become stricter, not ladies' more lenient.

    As I understand the rules now (after many corrections by helpful people!), falls are not supposed to get higher than -3. However, Tuktamysheva received two -2s for her fall in the SP at Lombardia. Now, I like Liza, and I think if any lady deserves higher than -5 for a fall it's her, but this seems pretty clearly against the new GOE judging rules.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanshani View Post
    I don't think skaters usually get dinged for pre-rotation, even though it's in the rules.
    Donovan Carillo was called for pre-rotation at 4CC in 2018, IIRC to the point of some jumps being downgraded, so it does happen. From what I understand, pre-rotation can come in two forms: the first occurs when the blade 'trails' on the ice for part/most of the first rotation after the skater's body weight has almost completely lifted off it, while the second occurs when most/all of the skater's body weight stays on the blade for part/most of the first rotation. The second is what tends to receive an underrotation or downgrade call.

  9. #49
    All Hail Empress Eteri Spirals for Miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanshani View Post
    Sasha's 4Lz looks short, but Anna's doesn't, though hers is definitely excessively prerotated. Perhaps that's what contributed to the call? If so, that does represent a deviation from normal judging practice, since I don't think skaters usually get dinged for pre-rotation, even though it's in the rules. However, if that's the case, I would say the unfairness is more that other skaters (including many men) don't get penalized, not that Anna does. Overall, my impression is that the ladies' quads are being subject to higher scrutiny than the men's, so it *is* unfair, but I'd prefer that men's calls become stricter, not ladies' more lenient.

    As I understand the rules now (after many corrections by helpful people!), falls are not supposed to get higher than -3. However, Tuktamysheva received two -2s for her fall in the SP at Lombardia. Now, I like Liza, and I think if any lady deserves higher than -5 for a fall it's her, but this seems pretty clearly against the new GOE judging rules.
    But Stephen’s are prerotated just as much, if not more, than Anna’s. So that’s not really a plausible idea.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    It wasn't about a floop however[...] If you don't know what to say - don't try to change the topic to other issues.
    I hate to tell you that, but if you helpfully post a frame-by-frame close-up of a terrible jump, some people are going to comment on it. I guess you'll have to get used to it.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirals for Miles View Post
    But Stephen’s are prerotated just as much, if not more, than Anna’s. So that’s not really a plausible idea.
    I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said, which was that ladies quads are more scrutinized for problems and typically tech panels don't call prerotation, but they might have this time because of the extra scrutiny. Stephen's weren't called because he's competing in men's and the men don't have any particular extra scrutiny applied to their quads, and pre-rotation is not normally called in general, even though the rules say it should be. Seems perfectly consistent. It's more plausible than "the tech panel is literally blind" anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harriet
    Donovan Carillo was called for pre-rotation at 4CC in 2018, IIRC to the point of some jumps being downgraded, so it does happen.
    Interesting. It doesn't seem to happen with any consistency, however, because a lot of skaters pre-rotate excessively and aren't called for it.

  12. #52
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    No skater or country has the monopoly on being overmarked or undermarked. I can think of many cases in which I have thought someone was overmarked or that the judges were scroogy with them.

    I believe ladies quads are more scrutinized for two reasons:
    1. So few ladies do them that they still have the "wow" factor so the judges are extra hard on marking them. They are special and as such they get extra review. With men, and forgive me I don't know what percentage it is, a lot of them have quads and 3axels so I think there is more accepting by the technical committee that they are quads. Once there are more quads in ladies I think we will see how they are judged change.

    2. Because so few ladies do them if one or two ladies can do them they are going to be far far ahead on TES and I believe the ISU has shown with the changes to the judging system that they do not want it to be just about the jumps but about the whole program so there is more scrutiny because of just how much more effect having one lady do 3 quads and no one else do any will have on the competition. I'm not sure it would matter if it was a Japanese, Russian or American lady who was doing it but it is about adjustment to a new norm.

  13. #53
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    One jump less for me should be like maybe 10 second at most less. I really don't want skaters to die on the ice... ISU, let them breathe!

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cathlen View Post
    One jump less for me should be like maybe 10 second at most less. I really don't want skaters to die on the ice... ISU, let them breathe!
    They should have taken out one spin as well that would even things more or less

  15. #55
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    Before ISU set the new rules, I thought the programs were already a bit empty for some of the quad guys. It was understandable, because quads tend to take more time, but without the 30 seconds it's looking blank, choreo wise. So sad, I enjoy the artistic part so much, it's was terrible move by ISU

  16. #56
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    The ISU posted this new feature on the +-5 GOE Scoring earlier today.

    https://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...mplateParam=15

  17. #57
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    The loss of 30 seconds in the men's free skate as well as the other ISU rule changes lead to an inherent conflict.

    The loss of one jump means that technical scores are now generally lower so that they match the presentation mark more closely. This means that the ISU wants to see artistry weighted better, but at the same time, the loss of 30 seconds means that there's a lot less time for artistry between the elements.

    The men may have the same required elements in the free skate as the ladies on paper, but the top men are doing two or more quads and/or two or more 3As to be competitive.

    Since the +5/-5 system places significantly more emphasis on GOEs and the "only one quad type can be repeated" rule is encouraging the men to attempt quads they have never tried before, this means that a higher percentage of the transitions between jump elements are going to be crossovers and other simpler power-generating steps to get the speed needed to perform high-quality quads in the first place.

    Thus, it's little surprise that we now see emptier programs.

  18. #58
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    ^^^
    But only in men. In ladies, pairs and dance the distance between elements score (TES) and programs score (PCS) is even bigger 'Artistry' tho is a big part of GOE bullets and now GOE has more involvement in final scores. But general involvment of PCS aka program as a whole score in final scores is even more questionable now, except for the men. And their programs now looks more as a element by element thing so PCS should be less important exactly there

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    ^^^
    But only in men. In ladies, pairs and dance the distance between elements score (TES) and programs score (PCS) is even bigger
    I don't follow Pairs and Dance closely enough, bit in the old system the distance between highest TES (Zagitova) and highest PCS (Medvedeva) was was about 3-4 points. In Men's the distance between highest TES (Chen) and highest PCS (Hanyu) was 29 points. If you count highest TES performances, then Zagitova's difference was 6.5 points and Chen's almost 36 points. So the distance was infinitely bigger in Men's.

    I don't think junior circuit is the best way to judge the situation now, but I'm guessing that the situation won't change that't much. Gap in Men's will still be bigger than in women's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rissa View Post
    I don't follow Pairs and Dance closely enough, bit in the old system the distance between highest TES (Zagitova) and highest PCS (Medvedeva) was was about 3-4 points. In Men's the distance between highest TES (Chen) and highest PCS (Hanyu) was 29 points. If you count highest TES performances, then Zagitova's difference was 6.5 points and Chen's almost 36 points. So the distance was infinitely bigger in Men's.

    I don't think junior circuit is the best way to judge the situation now, but I'm guessing that the situation won't change that't much. Gap in Men's will still be bigger than in women's.
    I was talking about this year scores, look at Lombardia and US Clasics. After one jump pass is removed from mens LP they all scored higher in PCS than in TES. In other disciplines is oposite of that, the same as before, even the distance is bigger in favor of TES. ISU need to change the factoring of PCS to made PCS worth the same in relation to TES across all the disciplines. Well, they dont need to, but it would be better i guess.

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