Unlikely age limits will change much?

Speaking of ladies singles I was curious and reading articles and watching v8deos. Sarah Hughes made a point that the sheer cost of competitive skating makes it hard to stay in. I think we will see a few, maybe another quadster like Trusova from
Sambo70 and the. Battle will be the quad battle in the coming quadrennial. Shcherbakova or another. But Likely a girl from Eteri. She said she had another girl who was as fearlesss. Will 2022 be the Olympics when the technical is pushed as far as it will go in every discipline but esp singles?

I don’t know I’ll be here to see it. But I wish for beauty instead. I wonder how many here are very young and watch mainly the jumping beans? I don’t think it can be pushed much further technically. Nathan Chen or someone who matches him and Alexandra Trusova. Again tiny girls who don’t develop much because the jumps bcom impossible. Gymnastics and skating are dying of their limited appeal and limited participants. The peak of skating? I think it is peaking now like many art forms. Dance is so athletic whether it be ballet or hip hop or contemporary. Big tricks are what matter most.

As for me I can enjoy the older skaters who trained figures. I think that balance has been lost forever. I hope it goes on but the world is dying. Enjoy whatever beauty you can. Ominous yes. I hope I am wrong of course.

Everything is accelerating so fast. Every part of life is changing so rapidly. Figure skating is just one sport one little world where knowledge and ability is raining down to its conclusion. It is a microcosm like a billion other things humans do. Space travel for fun? We are there. Does anyone understand what I mean? It’s hard to express. What will there be left when people grow bored of quad jumping and quints are not possible. Or are they? I’m not a skater nor a physicist.

I don't think it will change much. Just like gymnastics, a certain body type will be favored and that will happen because of genetics, age, or an eating disorder. That's the nature of almost every sport.

Honestly, skaters like Kostornaia, Shcherbakova, Tarakanova and even Trusova are much more artistic and beautiful than about 95% of senior ladies.
Watch any senior b warm ups 1/2 in FS and compare.

If anything, I am all for lowring age limits, because jump setups through all the rink are not art nor beauty

Right now, I'd be sad if increased age limits would block Kamila Valieva.

And yes, the "artistry" reasoning just doesn't work. See Sofia Samodelkina, age 11: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcg9nckIFqw

She's 11 and the vast majority(95%+ at least) of competitive skaters will never get there. To me there really is no good reasoning for increased age limits. I've said this before but I'd lower them instead.

moriel said:

Honestly, skaters like Kostornaia, Shcherbakova, Tarakanova and even Trusova are much more artistic and beautiful than about 95% of senior ladies.
Watch any senior b warm ups 1/2 in FS and compare.

If anything, I am all for lowring age limits, because jump setups through all the rink are not art nor beauty

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The technical level of juniors surpasses the seniors (in ladies, at least). Really, there is no valid argument anymore not to let everyone compete together.

drivingmissdaisy said:

The technical level of juniors surpasses the seniors (in ladies, at least). Really, there is no valid argument anymore not to let everyone compete together.

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Sure there are.
The first argument is to level the playing field - a skater post-puberty is not in the same physical condition as a skater pre-puberty.
The second argument is to protect the young skaters physically - the pre-puberty years are formative years in terms of physiology -
in my country it was illegal for children under the age of 14 to go the gym (and it was cancelled only a couple of years ago).
Third, it's a mental protection argument - a skater under the age of 15 (and even under 18) might still be unable to handle outside social pressure which may lead to all kinds of mental issues.

ETA: the youngest athlete in Peyong-Chang was 15 and the youngest member of team USA was Vincent Zhou (17).

TryMeLater said:

Sure there are.
The first argument is to level the playing field - a skater post-puberty is not in the same physical condition as a skater pre-puberty.
The second argument is to protect the young skaters physically - the pre-puberty years are formative years in terms of physiology -
in my country it was illegal for children under the age of 14 to go the gym (and it was cancelled only a couple of years ago).
Third, it's a mental protection argument - a skater under the age of 15 (and even under 18) might still be unable to handle outside social pressure which may lead to all kinds of mental issues.

ETA: the youngest athlete in Peyong-Chang was 15 and the youngest member of team USA was Vincent Zhou (17).

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I don‘t think the “we’re protecting the youngsters“ argument works. Those who want to try hard jumps will do it before they get older anyway. Skaters like Sasha Trusova would never be stopped by age limits. They would still push themselves and not being able to compete in seniors wouldn’t change a thing.

But note that I would NEVER agree to lower the age limit. Never ever. As much as I love Anna and Alena or other juniors. We have a junior and a senior level and 13, 14 year olds do not belong on the senior circuit. If anything, I think it would actually hurt them. Competing at junior competitions helps them get used to performing in front of a bigger audience, giving interviews and all those things that are naturally expected from a senior skater. Putting a 13 year old through this kind of pressure would be insane. They are tough but they‘re still children. And senior Worlds is still a totally different experience than junior Worlds.

I wouldn‘t mind if the age limit was set to 16 but not higher. And certainly not lower. A strict no to that.

Fluture said:

I don‘t think the “we’re protecting the youngsters“ argument works. Those who want to try hard jumps will do it before they get older anyway. Skaters like Sasha Trusova would never be stopped by age limits. They would still push themselves and not being able to compete in seniors wouldn’t change a thing.

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It might be so, but even that one less element in juniors is already something.
IIRC, "they" said about Midori Ito that she couldn't walk in a few years time (after she did the 3A) and she was already a senior - and she showed "them".
It'll be interesting to see Trusova in a few years.

drivingmissdaisy said:

The technical level of juniors surpasses the seniors (in ladies, at least). Really, there is no valid argument anymore not to let everyone compete together.

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And the artistry is the same in both.
I am all for lowering age limits, because then we will have best of both worlds.

As for protection... Long career = more injuries, just saying.

I think the lower requirements in juniors might actually be a hindrance. Like, juniors don't have a choreo sequence and automatically get lower PCS (anyone who thinks that Shcherbakova's SP PCS is fair is welcome to fight me) so the only way to guarantee senior GP spots, and thus senior success in the first season, is to risk the harder elements. Shcherbakova skating magnificently, for example, got just one more point than Medvedeva at ACI (yes, I know that you can't compare scores at comps but it's still a legitimate point). The only way for juniors to get ahead on the SB list is to risk the hard elements in the hopes that it'll pay off at some point, and that's exactly what we're seeing. Eunsoo, for example, skated well all season long but without the extra wow factor, it wasn't enough and now she has just one GP spot (people who think that's okay are also welcome to fight me). But Trusova? Her JWC performance where it really paid off meant that if she were eligible this season, she could've had GP spots, plural. If PCS won't be scored comparatively, the only way to get to the same point, or higher, on the SB list is to have higher tech. And I am all here for that higher tech -- quads and 3As are so exciting, and a breath of fresh air in the sport.

I won't name all the reasons for increasing the age for seniors - just a few with my personal comments.

1. To protect the health. This one is plain hypocrisy. Children start to skate at the age of 4-5. By the age of 10 the best of them master triples. Now some of them start to learn quads at 11. In what universe raising the entry age from 15 to 18 will make them forego that? For what reason? It is just the opposite: current age limit allows "Tara Lipinski situation". Win OG at 15 and retire thus saving ones health rather than ruining it.

2. To make it fair for after puberty girls. Life is not fair in many its aspects. But there are established rules. When they were established (and the sport is more than 100 years old), many considerations were taken into account. Hence, let's follow the rules and leave fairness argument to philosophers. Is it fair that Medvedeva won everything for several years magically avoiding injuries and got one right before the Olympics? Do we need to change the rules because of that?

3. To make sport more artistic rather than a jumping bean show. Another hypocrisy. On the one hand, juniors like Kostornaya can rival in artistry almost all if not all current seniors. On the other hand, we have dance - the embodiment of artistry. Is it more popular than singles? Not at all. There has been more publicity driven by NA dancers' doing very well. Stilll Olympic dance tickets A were available in Russia while ladies and men not. And look at GS. Where are all the threads, all the battles?

4. To keep Russian 15-16 year old ladies, especially Eteri's, at bay. The hopes are that she as a "junior coach" will not be successful with 18+ skaters so that her "conveyor belt" will hit the wall of puberty and her skaters will not dominate the senior circuit. No one says that directly but this looks like the only logical reason. But it is faulty.

The problem of this argument is that Eteri already had 18 year old Medvedeva who scored 237 at OG. And I doubt that anyone would seriosly bet that her current "wonder trio" won't last through 18. Like betting $1000 against $1 that no one of Trusova, Kostornaya, and Scherbakova be relevant as main podium contenders after 18.

Regardless of the age restriction battle, what I would like is to see the ladies have long careers. I want the top junior skaters to have a lasting legacy and not for them to be placed by the wayside because the technique they've learned in juniors didn't serve them after reaching puberty.

I want the likes of Zagitova, Medvedeva, Kosternaia, and Trusova to have success throughout their career and for them to be supported as they move into seniors and be looked as investments for the future of Russian skating for multiple Olympic cycles. Four years from now, I would like to see all of Eteri's current juniors remain relevant and be competitive with her next crop of incredible Russian junior skaters.

I don’t think changing the age limit is necessarily the answer.

What I would like to see is the sport evolve to a point where the system rewards both the impressive young jumpers, but also the more mature and well balanced ones.

Unfortunately the answer to that question may not exist.

I would not lower age requirements. Physiologically it is important to have some limits. The amount of force triple and quad jumps put on growth plates for developing athletes is not insignificant. I’m not saying don’t train these jumps but be smart about training them. Lowering the age would likely push people to do more sooner and faster. I’m not going to argue this- it is the area my degree and doctorate is in.

TLR- is there a way to promote longevity is skating while also rewarding technical prowess and mature, well rounded skating? Who knows.

TryMeLater said:

It might be so, but even that one less element in juniors is already something.
IIRC, "they" said about Midori Ito that she couldn't walk in a few years time (after she did the 3A) and she was already a senior - and she showed "them".
It'll be interesting to see Trusova in a few years.

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Well tbf 'They' weren't totally wrong. Plenty of skaters from the first generation of triple triple jumpers have admitted to chronic pain and joint issues. I don't think they should raise the age but I also don't think we should be trying to minimize the danger and potential consequences of what they are doing either because I'm sure they haven't done any studies on the women yet but I do know that I've seen that for the men falling out of a quad can put the same pressure on the body as falling from a third story building and no matter how we package it that can't be good on any body on a constant basis, let alone on the little growing unfused hips and pelvises of preteen girls. We don't know yet but I do feel it is kinda a 'hope for the best, expect the worst' situation when dealing with quads. For both men and women, boys and girls.

skateluvr said:

Figure skating is just one sport one little world where knowledge and ability is raining down to its conclusion. It is a microcosm like a billion other things humans do. Space travel for fun? We are there. Does anyone understand what I mean? It’s hard to express. What will there be left when people grow bored of quad jumping and quints are not possible. Or are they? I’m not a skater nor a physicist.

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Kirchhoff has allegedly said he doesn't understand why young men apply to physical faculties, because every fundamental problem had already been solved with the exception of a couple of minor issues. In a few decades these minor issues led to the discovery of relativity and quantum mechanics. I believe some people of that time had a similar sentiment about music too, not long before the emergence of blues and ragtime. Why not just follow the progress and solve the problems as they come instead?

I think most of the issues in question are caused by inconsistent judging of the components. As for now, PCS much more depend on TES, the junior/senior level and the reputation of a skater than the specific qualities described in the regulations. Even when judges like or dislike some particular program, they don't differentiate the components, they just give 5 similar scores with a little scatter, depriving coaches of vital feedback on their programs. I see this negligence as unprofessionalism that can only be fixed by paying more attention to training judges.

If we put components judging in order, we can then reduce the base values of elements (all of them, not just quads), which I believe will automatically solve most of the issues with health, artistry and long careers without introducing artificial restrictions and also, importantly, leaving freedom of expression to choreographers.

draqq said:

Regardless of the age restriction battle, what I would like is to see the ladies have long careers. I want the top junior skaters to have a lasting legacy and not for them to be placed by the wayside because the technique they've learned in juniors didn't serve them after reaching puberty.

I want the likes of Zagitova, Medvedeva, Kosternaia, and Trusova to have success throughout their career and for them to be supported as they move into seniors and be looked as investments for the future of Russian skating for multiple Olympic cycles. Four years from now, I would like to see all of Eteri's current juniors remain relevant and be competitive with her next crop of incredible Russian junior skaters.

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It's also due to competition that makes it near impossible for Russian ladies to have careers that are as long as you would like, especially to make it to multiple olympic cycles. Because of the popularity of the sport, there are many talented younger skaters. The current skaters will have inconsistent seasons, that's inevitable, and it may be due to technique that is not sustainable, or it may be due to the fact that consistency for many seasons isn't sustainable. I don't recall any female skater who has had more consistent seasons than Evgenia, for example. But because of the talent, up and coming skaters can beat these current skaters when they inevitably have an inconsistent season, and will be sent to international competition instead, like worlds, as there are only 3 spots. And they would deserve it, as they have earned it and should not be held back in favour of "longer careers for established skaters". If you look at skaters like Elena, Liza, etc., they are still getting GPs, but just haven't competed at worlds because there are others who are better. That's why I disagree with raising the age; it doesn't make sense to hold back younger skaters to preserve/elongate the careers of older skaters. It is unfortunate to be an athlete in a country that has so much competition, but this happens in many countries in other sports, and is the nature of competitive sport.

draqq said:

Regardless of the age restriction battle, what I would like is to see the ladies have long careers. I want the top junior skaters to have a lasting legacy and not for them to be placed by the wayside because the technique they've learned in juniors didn't serve them after reaching puberty.

I want the likes of Zagitova, Medvedeva, Kosternaia, and Trusova to have success throughout their career and for them to be supported as they move into seniors and be looked as investments for the future of Russian skating for multiple Olympic cycles. Four years from now, I would like to see all of Eteri's current juniors remain relevant and be competitive with her next crop of incredible Russian junior skaters.

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All the fans want that. But is that fair with respect to skaters? Don't they themselves want long careers? Why are they quitting?

Injuries. Sotnikova was motivated to prove that her win is not a fake. She wanted to go on. She could not. EDITED Now it is more difficult than before. Yuna could not do the loop because of back pain. She still was capable of winning big medals. I cannot imagine that now it would be possible no matter how talented a skater is. The cost of injuries has risen. And injries will stay because figure skating is a risky dangerous sport. EDITED

Competition. Italy with Kostner is one situation. Russia is another. To stay competitive under the current ever-growing number of talents means day to day dedication over the years. And this means continuous tension, continuous diets which could lead to exhaustion both physical and mental. Well, there is another way: we have Leonova. But, I understand, we are talking about long-term careers at the top.

3 maximum rules. And this is the main impediment. How can one talk about long-term competitive careers when there are just 3 spots in the national team? With the influx of young talent we could have 10+ eligible top senior skaters in several years if all stayed. How can we assure their motivation for so long if there are just 3 spots? Is not it more fair to let skaters win big time and retire opening the road to the next generation?

Change the rule to let skaters compete in the worlds and Olympics based on ranking - you will have long-term careers. Lifting the age has little to do with it.

[email protected] said:

All the fans want that. But is that fair with respect to skaters? Don't they themselves want long careers? Why are they quitting?

Injuries. Sotnikova was motivated to prove that her win is not a fake. She wanted to go on. She could not. EDITED Now it is more difficult than before. Yuna could not do the loop because of back pain. She still was capable of winning big medals. I cannot imagine that now it would be possible no matter how talented a skater is. The cost of injuries has risen. And injries will stay because figure skating is a risky dangerous sport. EDITED

Competition. Italy with Kostner is one situation. Russia is another. To stay competitive under the current ever-growing number of talents means day to day dedication over the years. And this means continuous tension, continuous diets which could lead to exhaustion both physical and mental. Well, there is another way: we have Leonova. But, I understand, we are talking about long-term careers at the top.

3 maximum rules. And this is the main impediment. How can one talk about long-term competitive careers when there are just 3 spots in the national team? With the influx of young talent we could have 10+ eligible top senior skaters in several years if all stayed. How can we assure their motivation for so long if there are just 3 spots? Is not it more fair to let skaters win big time and retire opening the road to the next generation?

Change the rule to let skaters compete in the worlds and Olympics based on ranking - you will have long-term careers. Lifting the age has little to do with it.

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Agreed. I don‘t think raising the age to 18 would solve any problems. If anything more would even occur. And people like Alina might have never had the chance to compete at the Olympics because of the age limit. And what if some actually don‘t want a longer career? Sport at the elite level takes a lot, physically and mentally. What‘s so wrong with winning the big price at a young age and retire afterwards to focus on education and other things like family, travelling, whatever? Other than the fact that we as fans might lose our favourite skaters from the competitions and are naturally sad about it. It‘s not like a win is worth “less“ if you retire afterwards. It just means you have realised that now you can move on peacefully, knowing what you have achieved. And those young girls who win everything have worked, too, all their childhood, 10, 12, years.

I‘m saying it again: Leave the age limit as it is but goodness, don‘t lower it further. THAT would be insane.

colormyworld240 said:

It's also due to competition that makes it near impossible for Russian ladies to have careers that are as long as you would like, especially to make it to multiple olympic cycles. Because of the popularity of the sport, there are many talented younger skaters. The current skaters will have inconsistent seasons, that's inevitable, and it may be due to technique that is not sustainable, or it may be due to the fact that consistency for many seasons isn't sustainable. I don't recall any female skater who has had more consistent seasons than Evgenia, for example. But because of the talent, up and coming skaters can beat these current skaters when they inevitably have an inconsistent season, and will be sent to international competition instead, like worlds, as there are only 3 spots. And they would deserve it, as they have earned it and should not be held back in favour of "longer careers for established skaters". If you look at skaters like Elena, Liza, etc., they are still getting GPs, but just haven't competed at worlds because there are others who are better. That's why I disagree with raising the age; it doesn't make sense to hold back younger skaters to preserve/elongate the careers of older skaters. It is unfortunate to be an athlete in a country that has so much competition, but this happens in many countries in other sports, and is the nature of competitive sport.

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A part of it is the competition from junior ladies which I don't have a problem with. The other part is that the juniors becoming seniors inevitably grow up and have to carefully rework their jump technique and that process takes much longer if they don't have the proper technique from their junior days to fit their changing bodies. Thus, they have inconsistent showings while they are making the adjustments but then are passed over and replaced and then forgotten/retire. This process isn't new of course, as it happens in Japan and America as well; it's just that this is more pronounced currently in Russia.

[email protected] said:

All the fans want that. But is that fair with respect to skaters? Don't they themselves want long careers? Why are they quitting?

Injuries. Sotnikova was motivated to prove that her win is not a fake. She wanted to go on. She could not. EDITED Now it is more difficult than before. Yuna could not do the loop because of back pain. She still was capable of winning big medals. I cannot imagine that now it would be possible no matter how talented a skater is. The cost of injuries has risen. And injries will stay because figure skating is a risky dangerous sport. EDITED

Competition. Italy with Kostner is one situation. Russia is another. To stay competitive under the current ever-growing number of talents means day to day dedication over the years. And this means continuous tension, continuous diets which could lead to exhaustion both physical and mental. Well, there is another way: we have Leonova. But, I understand, we are talking about long-term careers at the top.

3 maximum rules. And this is the main impediment. How can one talk about long-term competitive careers when there are just 3 spots in the national team? With the influx of young talent we could have 10+ eligible top senior skaters in several years if all stayed. How can we assure their motivation for so long if there are just 3 spots? Is not it more fair to let skaters win big time and retire opening the road to the next generation?

Change the rule to let skaters compete in the worlds and Olympics based on ranking - you will have long-term careers. Lifting the age has little to do with it.

Click to expand...

It's true that the Russian ladies is currently the most competitive field in skating today. A long career for a female skater is rare and difficult to ask for in Russia; every Russian Nationals is like a World Championship in my book.

I agree that injuries and exhaustion plays a part as well, and that retirement is a viable option for any skater who doesn't want to continue on after juniors. And ultimately I think that raising the age is more of a political move than anything else. That said, it's rare to see any Russian junior skater have a lasting career and it's not because these skaters aren't talented or don't have a desire to have long careers after dedicating so much time with the sport.

My reservation is that it doesn't seem as though there's too much effort in laying the foundation for jump technique that will carry the junior skaters into seniors for very long (the Eteri jump technique concentrates on upper body lift which is more difficult to do after puberty), and that because there are indeed many juniors skaters who are ready to replace the current generation of senior Russian ladies, the emphasis is on the junior skaters replacing them rather than sustaining the senior talent they already have.

That's why I admire the likes of Tuktamysheva who has reworked her technique (still has one of the best 3Lz in the business) and Pogorilaya who is trying to make a comeback by relearning hers. Medvedeva is trying to relearn her basics from the ground up with Orser, and I will be surprised if Zagitova won't also need to change some of her technique as well by the time the next Olympics rolls around, though I think her current technique will still serve her this year and the next. For the sake of the skaters, including Trusova and Kosternaia and other impressive Russian juniors, I would like to see more attention given to technique changes for when their bodies do change so that have a better chance at longevity.