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Thread: New Season, New Rules, & Judging: Ice Dance

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    Uno, Dos, twizzle! Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Prechat New Season, New Rules, & Judging: Ice Dance

    Along with the changes applied to the International Judging Season (IJS) applied to this season, there has been several changes unique to Ice Dance.

    Changes include
    * The Short Dance, which essentially merged the compulsory and original dances into one single dance, is now calls the Rhythm Dance.
    * Couples can now opt to chose from a number of choreographic elements for Free Dance, including a sliding movement.
    * This season, there are several step sequences including a step sequence in hold, a no-touch step sequence and what is called a characteristic step sequence.

    In the Rhythm Dance, all couples must skate to a compulsory pattern. In the senior level, the compulsory pattern is the Tango Romantica while junior level skaters are doing the Argentine Tango.

    The Free Dance is a bit of a misnomer as there are still many requirements, including twizzles, a certain number of lifts and completing of several different step sequences.

    Please see the documents below for more information.




    This thread is for Golden Skate users to discuss the rule changes and how they're being enforced throughout the season. It's also a great place to get questions answered, such as why people are scoring higher in ice dance so far this year.

    Topics:
    * Thoughts on couples abilities to hit key points in the rhythm dance.
    * Use of +5/-5 in judging
    * How errors are assessed in new system.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 09-29-2018 at 11:07 AM.

  2. #2
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    What's going on with scores in dance?

    I am very surprised. Three competitions and three winners with 196-197 scores. Those winners: H/D, S/K, and W/P never had anything close to that and now all of them at the same time. It's like a saying of former Russian PM Chernomyrdin who left a lot of wisdom behind: "We never had it before and now it is once again".

    I see nothing like that in other areas. Moreover, there is a bit of deflation in ladies. Why have the changes in judging affected positively just the dance? I, like most of others, understand very little how the scores come. I just knew that 160+ is good, 170+ is very good, 180+ is superb, 190+ is V/M and P/C. Now I an confused.

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    I think it inpart thenew scoring systemwith GOEs.Iammost curiousabout S/K as they have never beenin the toptierwhereas WEapo are at least for example world medallists.

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    Uno, Dos, twizzle! Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    I am very surprised. Three competitions and three winners with 196-197 scores. Those winners: H/D, S/K, and W/P never had anything close to that and now all of them at the same time. It's like a saying of former Russian PM Chernomyrdin who left a lot of wisdom behind: "We never had it before and now it is once again".

    I see nothing like that in other areas. Moreover, there is a bit of deflation in ladies. Why have the changes in judging affected positively just the dance? I, like most of others, understand very little how the scores come. I just knew that 160+ is good, 170+ is very good, 180+ is superb, 190+ is V/M and P/C. Now I an confused.
    Namely that there are more high-ticket elements in SD and FD. The max score for the FD is like 134 or something like that, which is much higher then the maximum FD last season.

    If you look at the junior ranks, they're scoring on average 20 points higher than their personal bests last season.

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    Tripping on the Podium
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    Mrs. P - Actually, it's over 137. So 120 is not even close to what it used to be.

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    You Know I'm a FS Fan... BillNeal's Avatar
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    Here's a breakdown of the max. scores in ice dance for both RD and FD in juniors and seniors as calculated by David Molina earlier in the summer, with all elements getting +5 GOE:https://twitter.com/_David_Molina/st...14822256414722

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    FigureSkatingPhenom draqq's Avatar
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    Just for the hell of it, I double-checked and it is indeed 137.84 for the FD:

    BV (+5 GOE) - Element
    ---------------------------
    5.30 (+1.73) - Lift 4
    5.30 (+1.73) - Lift 4
    5.30 (+1.73) - Lift 4
    6.00 (+2.25) - Spin 4
    6.34 (+3.64) - Twizzles Lady 4 + Man 4
    7.95 (+4.84) - Step Sequence in Hold/Not Touching 4
    6.34 (+3.64) - One-Foot Step Sequence Lady 4 + Man 4
    1.10 (+4.15) - Choreo Lift/Spin/Twizzling/Sliding/Step
    1.10 (+4.15) - Choreo Lift/Spin/Twizzling/Sliding/Step
    1.10 (+4.15) - Choreo Lift/Spin/Twizzling/Sliding/Step
    45.83 (+32.01) - 77.84 - Total Element Score

    10.00 in all five Components - 60.00 - Total Component Score

    137.84 - Total Possible Score in Free Dance

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    FigureSkatingPhenom draqq's Avatar
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    Points of Interest:

    - The three choreo sequences can make or break the program just on the GOE alone. Only the step sequence can earn more in GOE. By comparison, the GOE potential for all 3 choreo sequences (+12.45) is MORE than the GOE potential for all three lifts, the spin, and the twizzles (+11.08).

    - So far, the one-step foot sequence has the place for the easiest reduction in base value. It can very easily slip to a Level 2 for both the man and lady.

    - The max tech score is about 20% higher than the max GOE score. And so far already, the judges have not been scared to give out 9s in components for the top teams, so the variance will still be largely based on the technical mark.

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    Scores are always a little wonky when there is a change in scoring rules. Honestly it may take like a year or more for the judges to reach an unspoken understanding of what kind of performances/elements deserve what kind of +/- GOE. If I recall correctly, every year the ISU circulates video of the best jumps/moves as an example of the judging standard* so this year is pretty much a free for all.

    * I don’t know the specifics about this video, I don’t even know if it’s every year but Mirai said in an interview that after Vancouver she was in the video for a while and how depressing it was when she was replaced. And I did read in a separate article about Evgenia being used as a jump example (obvs not her lutz). The skaters don’t see the video but I think most are aware of who is featured in it

    ETA: It’s upsetting that I can’t find the article that talks about the ISU video but there are too many articles about Mirai from the Olympics and many that are now behind a paywall. If anyone knows what I’m talking about, please chime in because I feel like I’m going crazy without sources

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    The really should readjust the PCS factoring.

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    Wow calculating +GOE is so complex.

    Sinitsina/Katsalapov are really on fire based on their competitions so far this season.

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    The Notorious SEW ancientpeas's Avatar
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    I'm sure P/C will come along and fix all of this for us. We will stop looking at 127 as high scores and start thinking about 130s.

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    Dance base values are up across the board. Last year the junior teams couldn't crack 90 in the FD. This season, there are already 2 scores over 100. Most top junior teams are up 20 points or more.

    Senior teams with much lower levels than they had last spring are scoring as high or higher. Those scores are going to keep rising throughout the season as the levels increase, though it's possible the judges will rein in the GOE as competitions get deeper on the GP.

    And remember that in dance, there is very rarely a -5 level element. We don't have mistakes hammering scores the way they have been for many more singles & pair teams. And I know the jump values have gone down, and one jump has been removed in the men's event. While in dance, elements have been added and/or values have gone up.

    Quote Originally Posted by lavoix View Post
    Sinitsina/Katsalapov are really on fire based on their competitions so far this season.
    They are a very fast team, which helps them with GOE heavy scoring; and I thought they looked good at Nepela. But they dropped 16 levels in that competition. So a lot of work to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Dance View Post
    They are a very fast team, which helps them with GOE heavy scoring; and I thought they looked good at Nepela. But they dropped 16 levels in that competition. So a lot of work to do.
    I don't quite understand why some of those levels were dropped, and this is one thing in ice dance I don't understand, why some of those levels drop.

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    FigureSkatingPhenom draqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavoix View Post
    I don't quite understand why some of those levels were dropped, and this is one thing in ice dance I don't understand, why some of those levels drop.
    Ice dance levels are indeed fickle. Here are just some of the reasons why levels are dropped:

    Twizzles
    - The twizzle accidentally turned into a 3-turn
    - The other foot touched down ever so slightly
    - One skater missed a rotation

    Lifts
    - Entry/exit feature wasn't deemed difficult enough
    - Rotational lift didn't cover the required amount of rotations
    - The one-foot rotation requirement didn't count
    - A difficult pose wasn't held for 3 seconds

    Step Sequences/Pattern Steps
    - Steps are not done "correctly" (mohawks turned into choctaws or vice versa, wrong hold)
    - A step/turn was not done on a deep enough edge (even the slightest of "flatness" can result in a No on a key point or a drop in level)
    - A step/turn was not done with enough speed

    I will say that the pattern steps and step sequences are the most difficult to judge. You never really know what the particular technical panelist might deem correct or not, depending on the panel's angle and how precise they are for a step. From what I understand, choctaws are the hardest to hit properly for levels.

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    FigureSkatingPhenom draqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavoix View Post
    I don't quite understand why some of those levels were dropped, and this is one thing in ice dance I don't understand, why some of those levels drop.
    As for specifics from S/K's Free Dance at Ondrej:

    - Katsalapov likely lost a level for doing one less rotation than Sinitsina on the third set of twizzles
    - The serpentine step sequence wasn't complex enough, particularly in the back half (Level 2), Sinitsina's first twizzle might not have counted either (looked like 3-turns) so that can drop it to a level 2 immediately
    - Both S and K received level 2 on the one-step foot sequence, possibly because they were not doing the changes of edges exactly the same, Sinitsina's twizzle didn't look fast enough, Katsalapov's third step was a bit shaky
    - In the rotational lift (graded Level 3), Katsalapov finished with the one-foot rotation feature but perhaps it was not considered stable enough on one rotation to count

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I think it inpart thenew scoring systemwith GOEs.Iammost curiousabout S/K as they have never beenin the toptierwhereas WEapo are at least for example world medallists.
    Yes. It is a feature of the new system in dance that relatively poor technical ability can be hugely, generously rewarded.

    S&K received low levels but high GOEs in the FD at Nepela. As @Ice Dance, said they have good speed.

    In previous years, their low levels sank them. With the new system, did not happen at Nepela.

    And it is not just for them. Third place Popova and Mozgov had the lowest base value in the FD of the event.

    I hope in future, the judges will decide a level2 step does not deserve a +4 GOE...a twizzle sequence with a mistake does not deserve +3...and a level 3 rotational lift does not deserve +5

    Otherwise we might as well grade them based on speed alone, and call it Speed Skating.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 09-27-2018 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I hope in future, the judges will decide a level2 step does not deserve a +4 GOE...a twizzle sequence with a mistake does not deserve +3...and a level 3 rotational lift does not deserve +5
    Do the judges know what levels are given in live time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Dance View Post
    Do the judges know what levels are given in live time?
    No

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Yes. It is a feature of the new system in dance that relatively poor technical ability can be hugely, generously rewarded.

    S&K received low levels but high GOEs in the FD at Nepela. As @Ice Dance, said they have good speed.

    In previous years, their low levels sank them. With the new system, did not happen at Nepela.

    And it is not just for them. Third place Popova and Mozgov had the lowest base value in the FD of the event.

    I hope in future, the judges will decide a level2 step does not deserve a +4 GOE...a twizzle sequence with a mistake does not deserve +3...and a level 3 rotational lift does not deserve +5

    Otherwise we might as well grade them based on speed alone, and call it Speed Skating.
    Well, I find the new system to be better General public (and to be fair many of us either) dont see those small details as correct edges and perfectly excecuted turns, which define prescribed levels in patterns. We as a audience usually see those things define by GOE, so i dont think only tecnically correct skated steps should define the winner if that is not the picture seeable by the wider audience. Like i said before, if that is the case, we should watch compulsary dance programs to find a 'correct' winner. But point of the sports competitions is to be watchable in first place and for audience to 'may see' why someone won.

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