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Thread: New Season, New Rules, & Judging: Ice Dance

  1. #21
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    Right. Like they always saw why teams won before IJS? LOL. I miss the freedom of pre-IJS dance programs, but the scoring since then has allowed for movement, more successful teams, longer careers (as teams do not feel compelled to retire as soon as they drop in the standings), more international participation, and generally the expansion of ice dance as a discipline. I'm not a fan of going backward in dance in particular. Of all the disciplines, I think it is the one that has grown and benefited the most post-IJS.

  2. #22
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    Weaver and Poje are head and shoulders above everyone else that have debuted their programs, despite the similar numbers posted across competitions. And they will be skating their programs at every stop on the Thank You Canada Tour. So even though they aren't competing in the GP, they will continue to improve on and polish them. I won't be surprised to see them win 4CC and maybe even Worlds this season, depending on how P/C look.

  3. #23
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    They have to overcome their "twizzleitis" first but I wish them good luck!

  4. #24
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    ^ Although a bit slow, the twizzles were well-synchronized, had good ice coverage, and they looked confident doing them at ACI.

  5. #25
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    Hey everyone! I appreciate samkrut getting the ball rolling with this thread. I have added an original post full of documents to help everyone get wind of how the judging/scoring works this season.

    This will now be a sister thread to the one for pairs and singles. Enjoy!

  6. #26
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    Has there been any... err, interesting program in this supposedly most-artistic discipline?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopinskate View Post
    Has there been any... err, interesting program in this supposedly most-artistic discipline?
    Personally I’m a fan of both M/C and P/P FD this season. 😊

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by composer View Post
    Personally I’m a fan of both M/C and P/P FD this season. 😊
    P/P as in Piper and Paul or as in the Parsons?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Yes. It is a feature of the new system in dance that relatively poor technical ability can be hugely, generously rewarded.

    S&K received low levels but high GOEs in the FD at Nepela. As @Ice Dance, said they have good speed.

    In previous years, their low levels sank them. With the new system, did not happen at Nepela.

    And it is not just for them. Third place Popova and Mozgov had the lowest base value in the FD of the event.

    I hope in future, the judges will decide a level2 step does not deserve a +4 GOE...a twizzle sequence with a mistake does not deserve +3...and a level 3 rotational lift does not deserve +5

    Otherwise we might as well grade them based on speed alone, and call it Speed Skating.
    I totally agree. With the most recent changes in Ice Dances the role of the technical panel becomes close to nothing. Almost all is in the hands of the 5-7-9 judges. This way we loose the whole idea of the IJS which is to first have technical panels to evaluate the technical abilities and the difficulties of the elements. One more time (as in the old times) everything is in the hands of (subjective) judges only. Having a math background myself and looking into the numbers, I honestly think the base values of the elements and the points subtracted/added to them from the GOEs have been suggested and approved by people who have no good idea of math. Why bother with a technical panel at all, why pay their expenses for competitions anymore?? Their influence on the final results is almost zero.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Yes. It is a feature of the new system in dance that relatively poor technical ability can be hugely, generously rewarded.

    S&K received low levels but high GOEs in the FD at Nepela. As @Ice Dance, said they have good speed.

    In previous years, their low levels sank them. With the new system, did not happen at Nepela.

    And it is not just for them. Third place Popova and Mozgov had the lowest base value in the FD of the event.

    I hope in future, the judges will decide a level2 step does not deserve a +4 GOE...a twizzle sequence with a mistake does not deserve +3...and a level 3 rotational lift does not deserve +5

    Otherwise we might as well grade them based on speed alone, and call it Speed Skating.
    Yep, speed skating it is. Nobody cares for good basics - just look at Juniors

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by markovai View Post
    I totally agree. With the most recent changes in Ice Dances the role of the technical panel becomes close to nothing. Almost all is in the hands of the 5-7-9 judges. This way we loose the whole idea of the IJS which is to first have technical panels to evaluate the technical abilities and the difficulties of the elements. One more time (as in the old times) everything is in the hands of (subjective) judges only. Having a strong math background myself and looking into the numbers, I honestly think the base values of the elements and the points added to them from the GOEs have been suggested and accepted by people who have no idea of math. Why bother with a technical panel at all, why pay their expenses for competitions anymore?? Their influence on the final results is almost zero.
    That's assuming the judges don't skyrocket the GOEs and PCS again so that all top teams are near maxing out. We saw last season that levels were very important in the P/C v. V/M head to heads.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillNeal View Post
    ^ Although a bit slow, the twizzles were well-synchronized, had good ice coverage, and they looked confident doing them at ACI.
    Ah, but there was no pressure at the Autumn Classic. I'm on your side, Bill, I am. (Well, I'd also be happy to see Stepanova & Bukin on the podium). But we've been watching long enough to know that betting on Weaver & Poje's twizzles is about as wise an investment as betting that Sinitsina & Katsalapov will get through the season without at least one high-profile implosion.

  13. #33
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    Andrew Poje's twizzles are the reason we can't have nice things. If they have to do them slowly to not have a melt down then I say do them slowly.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Dance View Post
    Ah, but there was no pressure at the Autumn Classic. I'm on your side, Bill, I am. (Well, I'd also be happy to see Stepanova & Bukin on the podium). But we've been watching long enough to know that betting on Weaver & Poje's twizzles is about as wise an investment as betting that Sinitsina & Katsalapov will get through the season without at least one high-profile implosion.
    I think one good thing though about the new system is that each partner's twizzles are given a separate level. So even if one partner makes a big mistake, the other partner can save some points by getting a decent level on his/her portion.

    Anyway, me being there in the audience, they looked really strong and rejuvenated this season. Their RD has nice contrast and build: sensual at the beginning, becoming fast and sharp at the end. Pattern needs polish but some nice, difficult footwork in the step sequence. Tango is a known strength of theirs but I think this one still exceeded my expectations. FD is well-choreographed to the dynamics of the music, elements seamlessly integrated for the most part, and creative incorporation in the step sequences (eg. good use of mirroring choreography in one foot step), each serving a different purpose. The last minute of their dance is truly magical (I shed a few tears after it). Imo, they are putting forward the best set of programs of their careers. W/P have mentioned that they are hungry after winning the bronze in Milan and it's looking like they will continue to build upon the momentum.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by markovai View Post
    I totally agree. With the most recent changes in Ice Dances the role of the technical panel becomes close to nothing. Almost all is in the hands of the 5-7-9 judges.
    And why should an opinion of 3 judges matter more than opinion of 5-7-9 judges? Does we who are watching performances see the things more like a tech panel or like rest of the judges? To say again, reworked ice dance system is much better not just because more judges can decide the winner (which makes it more objective) but because judges decisions are more reasonable to the general public (cause those decisions are more dependable of the judges who are watching skaters with 'the eyes' general public are watching it)

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    And why should an opinion of 3 judges matter more than opinion of 5-7-9 judges? Does we who are watching performances see the things more like a tech panel or like rest of the judges? To say again, reworked ice dance system is much better not just because more judges can decide the winner (which makes it more objective) but because judges decisions are more reasonable to the general public (cause those decisions are more dependable of the judges who are watching skaters with 'the eyes' general public are watching it)
    Because technique can be judged according to clear standards: what else are key points for? Either you hit the standard or you don't. GOE and PCS are far far far far far far far more subjective, and wonderfully flexible. Which is a very nice way of saying, "open to manipulation."

    And it hasn't taken long for those 5-7-9 judges to manipulate them.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Because technique can be judged according to clear standards: what else are key points for? Either you hit the standard or you don't. GOE and PCS are far far far far far far far more subjective, and wonderfully flexible.
    Yes, but those standards are not always indicator of better tecnical ability. Levels are arbitrary determined and they are also including other abilities as flexibility, strenght, stamina... My point was - tech pannel can make mistakes the same way some of those 7-9 judges are making. And decision of larger number of judges is always better in my opinion, cause decision of other judges can better accomodate mistake one judge in the pannel can possibly make.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Yes, but those standards are not always indicator of better tecnical ability. Levels are arbitrary determined and they are also including other abilities as flexibility, strenght, stamina... My point was - tech pannel can make mistakes the same way some of those 7-9 judges are making. And decision of larger number of judges is always better in my opinion, cause decision of other judges can better accomodate mistake one judge in the pannel can possibly make.
    As an example, if you look at the pattern diagrams and charts for the key points (page 56 and onwards), the levels are far from arbitrary. Each step no. has a prescribed hold, step for the male partner, step for the female partner with a specified number of beats the steps are to be held for. Each step is to be executed on a specific correct edge and turns are also evaluated for the key points.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillNeal View Post
    As an example, if you look at the pattern diagrams and charts for the key points (page 56 and onwards), the levels are far from arbitrary. Each step no. has a prescribed hold, step for the male partner, step for the female partner with a specified number of beats the steps are to be held for. Each step is to be executed on a specific correct edge and turns are also evaluated for the key points.
    Of course, but patterns are not the only thing judged by the levels. You have lifts, steps, choreo sequences etc I meant arbitrary in terms of not reflecting always (and only) better tech ability but what judges want to see (i didnt find better word) For example people percieve Savchenko/Massot twist lift as the best even their level is not always the highest (and that highest level is not the precise indicator of their tech ability)

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Of course, but patterns are not the only thing judged by the levels. You have lifts, steps, choreo sequences etc I meant arbitrary in terms of not reflecting always (and only) better tech ability but what judges want to see (i didnt find better word)
    The technical panel determines the levels for all elements -- the judges don't have input into the levels nor even know what levels are being called by the tech panel.

    The calling guidelines that the tech panel applies aren't deciding "who has better technical ability" or "who performed the element better" but merely whether the element met the requirements for the attempted level as spelled out in the rules.

    They need to make yes/no decisions about each of the requirements attempted. Most of the time the answer is obvious. In "gray areas" -- where the skaters' attempt sits on the borderline between almost but not quite or just barely meets the requirements -- then different tech panel members who might be more or less strict in their understanding and application of the rules might disagree which side of the line the attempt ended up on.

    The quality decisions are left to the judges and are more subjective by design.

    For example people percieve Savchenko/Massot twist lift as the best even their level is not always the highest (and that highest level is not the precise indicator of their tech ability)
    This is a pairs example, so it's probably not relevant to the ice dance thread.

    But is the question whether the highest quality should always earn the highest scores even with lower difficulty, or with attempted difficulty not quite achieved up to the definition? The system attempts to balance difficulty (determined by the tech panel) against quality (determined by the judges). How much each level and each GOE step is spelled out in the scale of values, but the documents can't be written in advance to apply to every execution of every element by every team.

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