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Thread: New Season, New Rules, & Judging: Ice Dance

  1. #61
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    Yes, freestyle judges are shown the rotation calls and edge calls on jumps. They are not shown the levels on nonjump elements.

    I know that is true for freestyle.

    I'm not positive about dance.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    If steps are visibly incorrect then im sure it would be reflected in GOE. But if judges can hardly see if that one edge on the turn/steps in one key point of the whole pattern was deep enough to satisfy levels, why that should be reflected in their GOE? Does that one detail should weight that much comparing to all the other things skaters do? I think the poster was trying to say (and what was the judges feedback) that how the whole pattern is skated is more important than one key point which is just a part of it...
    The overall look does matter and while one slipped edge in a footwork sequence can drop a level, I agree that it shouldn't decimate the GOE. However, this does not apply to pattern dances in my opinion, or to footwork sequences where there are multiple flat edges or shaky turns. Pattern dances are designed to be technical and have specific features built into them. If you can't skate the feature technically correct, then it should hurt your GOE. I don't care how well you sell your mohawk in the Rumba as a chactaw. If you can't do a chactaw, then you should be losing significant GOE and level no matter how pretty.

    In a free dance, I have less of an issue with judges favouring the overall picture, however, weak skating skills should be penalized, no matter how pretty the skaters make it look.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver.blades View Post
    The overall look does matter and while one slipped edge in a footwork sequence can drop a level, I agree that it shouldn't decimate the GOE. However, this does not apply to pattern dances in my opinion, or to footwork sequences where there are multiple flat edges or shaky turns. Pattern dances are designed to be technical and have specific features built into them. If you can't skate the feature technically correct, then it should hurt your GOE. I don't care how well you sell your mohawk in the Rumba as a chactaw. If you can't do a chactaw, then you should be losing significant GOE and level no matter how pretty.

    In a free dance, I have less of an issue with judges favouring the overall picture, however, weak skating skills should be penalized, no matter how pretty the skaters make it look.
    There is a category where SS are judged and they are a part of GOE so... I agree that technically incorrect pattern hurts your GOE, but not necesserally and not always... If a team doesnt hit the level for mohawk that doesnt mean they can't do it or their SS are weak, it just means they didnt perform mohawk right at one exact moment...

  4. #64
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    In a sport, no one gets points for a skill they can easily perform, but miss when it counts.

    And they should not get points for it.

  5. #65
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    This is a fresh and interesting example for our debate. Stepanova/Bukin twizzles at Finlandia in RD got level 1 but better GOE (4 across the board!) comparing to their level 4 twizzles in FD who got lower GOE. I know originality/creativity is a double feature now and judges probably award their twizzles in RD with that, but still their twizzles in FD are skated technically even 3 levels better... (their total score for level 4 twizzles is still higher tho)...

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    This is a fresh and interesting example for our debate. Stepanova/Bukin twizzles at Finlandia in RD got level 1 but better GOE (4 across the board!) comparing to their level 4 twizzles in FD who got lower GOE. I know originality/creativity is a double feature now and judges probably award their twizzles in RD with that, but still their twizzles in FD are skated technically even 3 levels better... (their total score for level 4 twizzles is still higher tho)...
    One competition did an overhead camera shot of S/B's "twizzles," and I was shocked (I am not exaggerating) and how LITTLE coverage they got. They're often borderline pirouettes, especially the shoot-the-ducks ones. How they get a level 4 is A Big Mystery to me.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    One competition did an overhead camera shot of S/B's "twizzles," and I was shocked (I am not exaggerating) and how LITTLE coverage they got. They're often borderline pirouettes, especially the shoot-the-ducks ones. How they get a level 4 is A Big Mystery to me.
    I noticed that the have wisely put their shoot-the-duck twizzles as the choreographed element in the FD, thereby getting less scrutiny.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    One competition did an overhead camera shot of S/B's "twizzles," and I was shocked (I am not exaggerating) and how LITTLE coverage they got. They're often borderline pirouettes, especially the shoot-the-ducks ones. How they get a level 4 is A Big Mystery to me.
    No, they got only Level 1 for them (in RD). They were awarded in GOE though. They got Level 4 for normal type of twizzles (in FD)... (but probably when their sit twizzles travels more, they are getting higher levels for it)...
    Editing: That makes me beleive judges dont know levels of elements, cause i guess some judges (which have their countries represents) wont hestitate to give them lower than +4 GOE for a level 1 element (USA judge gave them even +5!). I mean, i would give them a lot of GOEs for creativity there, but i think some will deduct more from those positives if they know level is not met!?

  9. #69
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    Why did they only get level 1 in the RD and then level 4 in the FD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavoix View Post
    Why did they only get level 1 in the RD and then level 4 in the FD?
    I thought i already explained that. They didnt perform sit twizzles in FD, but regular ones, which were awarded with L4. Their sit twizzles in RD (this time) got L1 (in the past they sometimes got higher levels on them, sometimes not, probably dependable of the fact if they travel enough across the ice/on the right edge)!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    No, they got only Level 1 for them (in RD). They were awarded in GOE though. They got Level 4 for normal type of twizzles (in FD)... (but probably when their sit twizzles travels more, they are getting higher levels for it)...
    Editing: That makes me beleive judges dont know levels of elements, cause i guess some judges (which have their countries represents) wont hestitate to give them lower than +4 GOE for a level 1 element (USA judge gave them even +5!). I mean, i would give them a lot of GOEs for creativity there, but i think some will deduct more from those positives if they know level is not met!?
    GOEs are already, to put it mildly, Highly Suspect. And so they will be as long as they are tied to a system of judging based on nationalism.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    GOEs are already, to put it mildly, Highly Suspect. And so they will be as long as they are tied to a system of judging based on nationalism.
    Not really. In this case almost all of the judges agreed they deserved +4 GOE, and USA judge even gave them the highest one (+5). Thats why i found it as a good example for a Levels vs GOE debate!

  13. #73
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    On a regular day, I fully believe that Stepanova & Bukin deserve +4s & +5s for those twizzles. The ones in the LOW position. They are incredible, and I have Ben Agosto's word to back me up in that opinion.

    Upon occasion, though, (it hadn't happened prior to Finlandia for quite a while), they don't execute them correctly and they drop to a level one. It's high risk, but it could very possibly pay off for them and separate them from many of the other medal contenders this season.

    But why do S&B--upon rare occasion--lose the levels? Because they don't always execute them correctly.

    No, I don't think they should have received +4s & a +5 this time. It wasn't a matter of a simple element executed fabulously. It was a matter of an extremely difficult element poorly executed. The judges are supposed to be judging execution. If they can't do that job, they should be made aware of the call. The reason not everyone can be a tech caller is that not all judges are trained to be able to assess some of the technical difficulty in dance. If they aren't trained to do so or are not focusing enough on the blades to do so (because that would lead to losing the overall sense of presentation within the program), then they need to be made aware that there was a problem in the execution of the element.

    Or they shouldn't be the ones judging the execution.

  14. #74
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    Ok, lets see which positive and negative features their RD's twizzles (may) had according to the ISU scale. First, there was no falls, stumbles or loss of balance so the element can be awarded with more than +3. Positive features are: element is innovative and creative (this is a double feature!), smooth and efforthless (double feature), seamless/unexpected entry,exit (of the first two twizzles) are on the smooth running edge/performed in the same time, unision through the element, speed of rotation maintained/accelerated, body lines are pleasing, element enhances choreo/rhythm. The only positive feature they may not satisfied is cleaness and sureness of steps and turns. Negative feature is poor execution (can be a double negative feature but not necesseraly!, in this case element is not uncontrolled and laboured, just poor executed so i would give them only one negative feature for poor execution) and lack of movement (glide) across the ice as the other negative feature. So, when we calculate positives and negatives we may give them even +4. What enable this high number is including of element is innovative/creative feature which cancelling negatives features in this case (as the fact there was no falls, stumbles/loss of balance). That (double) feature could not be given for their Level 4 twizzles in FD, so they got mostly +3, even if they better satisfied level requirements with them.

  15. #75
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    Are they innovative though. Sit twizzles have been listed as a possibility in the scoring for quite some time. (4 years) They are most skilled and most courageous to do them, but I think not innovative or creative.

    If a person is the first to land a quad axel, it is amazing, but not creative. It is like that.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-09-2018 at 12:05 PM.

  16. #76
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    Creativity can be a tricky feature, but not here i think! This is the type of twizzles visibly different than all the other twizzles all other teams perform(ed). Also they were the first and they are still the only one doing them... I mean, they cant invent new type of element/jump, skaters are awarded with creativity feature for elements which appear as distinctively different from what other teams are doing...

  17. #77
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    I disagree. And now that there are choreo twizzles, I have seen a couple attempts to include them by other teams.

    They were new with them 4 years ago, not now.

    For me, innovation involves being the first one to think of something- in this case the unknown folks who wrote the rule changes for the 2014-2018 quad. The first to do something might get you a wink and a few points for a year or two, but 4 years is a bit much, especially when by getting level one, they did not demonstrate the new thing, really, but I do see your point.

    I just do not agree.

  18. #78
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    Now that we can talk about it... why did Hubbell/Donohue get any 9.00+s in their SD, given that they had a fall?

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/se..._RD_Scores.pdf

    https://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...p-2018-19/file

    This isn't me coming for them - I adore this team and their programs... and it wasn't a fall in the conventional, feet tripping over... but it was interesting to note that only 2 judges actually adhered to this rule.

  19. #79
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    I guess the usual "oh but we thought the performance had ended" deal. Rules about ending pose mishaps are very irregularly upheld.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Now that we can talk about it... why did Hubbell/Donohue get any 9.00+s in their SD, given that they had a fall?

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/se..._RD_Scores.pdf

    https://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...p-2018-19/file

    This isn't me coming for them - I adore this team and their programs... and it wasn't a fall in the conventional, feet tripping over... but it was interesting to note that only 2 judges actually adhered to this rule.
    I interpreted that rule as with 1 fall (fall singular in the first line of the table), they can award 9s and it is the 10s that are not allowed
    With 2+ falls (fall plural in the second line of the table), 9s can't be awarded

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