Why there have been so many wrong calls for the Flip?

The point is not the wrong calls. Every competition has wrong calls. But why there have been so many calls on the Flip lately? Many skaters who never get called on the Flip before now are getting called over it. And they have been jumping the same Flip for years! At the same time, the Lutz is almost ignored. You have a Flutz? No problem. You get only a ! for it, not even e. Is ISU encouraging people going for the Flutz and forget that the Flip exist?

There is only one explanation: the DEFINITION of flip has changed.

I must be in the minority, but I love that the technical controllers are actually scrutinizing edges for Flip and Lutz. How many times do I read thru a competition thread and half of it was people complaining about wrong edges not being called or underrotated jumps not getting carrots. Sure there were more flips called at Skate America than Lutz, but I also thought it was because there seems to be more natural Lutzers than Flippers. If you look at the ladies performing both Lutz and Flips, they almost all got called on one or the other. There aren't too many people with strong edges on both jumps.

The ones that got called i.e., Satoko's Flip, Kaori's Lutz, they have a reputation for wrong edge for those jumps and getting away with it in the past (along with most others). I'm glad the technical controllers are finally doing their job.

We'll see if this is an one time anomaly or if they're actually going to be strict from now on.

As to why they are calling it now, I have an inkling that because of all the rule changes (and it being a new quad), all the scores are reset and the judges are scrutinizing more stringently. I'm sure by the time of the next Olympics nothing will be called and sky high GOEs would be handed out.

I have more a pet peeve for obviously underrotated jumps with a fall don't get counted as underrotated (*cough Shoma's 4Loop at the Olympics*). If they're falling at a jump, they should be flagged immediately for review. People don't just fall randomly if it's a fully rotated jump.

asiacheetah said:

Sure there were more flips called at Skate America than Lutz, but I also thought it was because there seems to be more natural Lutzers than Flippers. If you look at the ladies performing both Lutz and Flips, they almost all got called on one or the other. There aren't too many people with strong edges on both jumps.

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No. Flutzers get a way. Flip are called. That is the reality.

asiacheetah said:

The ones that got called i.e., Satoko's Flip, Kaori's Lutz, they have a reputation for wrong edge for those jumps and getting away with it in the past (along with most others). I'm glad the technical controllers are finally doing their job.

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No, they are not doing their job fairly. Kaori has a heavy Flutz and only got a ! lol. Her Flutz can be seen from real time and she oftend got e call for it. Here no e call for the Flutz. Satoko has a ! for Lutz now but they call her Flip instead.

asiacheetah said:

As to why they are calling it now, I have an inkling that because of all the rule changes (and it being a new quad), all the scores are reset and the judges are scrutinizing more stringently. I'm sure by the time of the next Olympics nothing will be called and sky high GOEs would be handed out.

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No, the thing is they are calling it selectively.

charlotte14 said:

No. Flutzers get a way. Flip are called. That is the reality.

No, they are not doing their job fairly. Kaori has a heavy Flutz and only got a ! lol. Her Flutz can be seen from real time and she oftend got e call for it. Here no e call for the Flutz. Satoko has a ! for Lutz now but they call her Flip instead.

No, the thing is they are calling it selectively.

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So which is it, too many wrong calls on Flips or it's not called harsh enough?

Different panels of judges, different events. People are human. They're not going to be 100% correct all the time especially since they don't have the benefit of multiple camera angles.

Here is what I wish would happen.

1) Increase the overall scrutiny of edge calls.

2) Reduce the negative value of the punishment for calls and overall impact on scoring. ~.50 pts or less.

3) if the TP makes an edge call then Playback a replay of the jump for the judges with an option for -3,-4 or -5 GOE based on the severity.


The way it stands now with the current rules I prefer a more lenient panel. I just don’t like the TP or judges to become the story of an event for several reasons and edge calls are very minor in the big picture in my opinion. I also like the idea of the judges working as a sort of balance of potential rogue panels. The combination of including TP and Judges on the impact an edge calls on a case by case basis could lead to more consistency in scoring from event to event in my opinion. That’s really all I care about.

asiacheetah said:

I must be in the minority, but I love that the technical controllers are actually scrutinizing edges for Flip and Lutz. How many times do I read thru a competition thread and half of it was people complaining about wrong edges not being called or underrotated jumps not getting carrots. Sure there were more flips called at Skate America than Lutz, but I also thought it was because there seems to be more natural Lutzers than Flippers. If you look at the ladies performing both Lutz and Flips, they almost all got called on one or the other. There aren't too many people with strong edges on both jumps.

The ones that got called i.e., Satoko's Flip, Kaori's Lutz, they have a reputation for wrong edge for those jumps and getting away with it in the past (along with most others). I'm glad the technical controllers are finally doing their job.

We'll see if this is an one time anomaly or if they're actually going to be strict from now on.

As to why they are calling it now, I have an inkling that because of all the rule changes (and it being a new quad), all the scores are reset and the judges are scrutinizing more stringently. I'm sure by the time of the next Olympics nothing will be called and sky high GOEs would be handed out.

I have more a pet peeve for obviously underrotated jumps with a fall don't get counted as underrotated (*cough Shoma's 4Loop at the Olympics*). If they're falling at a jump, they should be flagged immediately for review. People don't just fall randomly if it's a fully rotated jump.

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Eeek, we're gonna be hearing about that one for a while, eh! Well, along with Shoma's loop being UR, Javier's flip wasn't exactly called for an edge call either on his series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7usLTOIfI#t=3m25s

Tech panels miss stuff. But seems like at Skate America they were the other end of the spectrum and calling whatever they could see, and having zero chill about it (including lips).

asiacheetah said:

So which is it, too many wrong calls on Flips or it's not called harsh enough?

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Too many wrong ones.

asiacheetah said:

I must be in the minority, but I love that the technical controllers are actually scrutinizing edges for Flip and Lutz. How many times do I read thru a competition thread and half of it was people complaining about wrong edges not being called or underrotated jumps not getting carrots.

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It's not wonderful to me that the technical controllers are now going in the opposite direction and making wrong calls, instead of leaving jumps incorrectly uncalled. Although this "new" nonsense isn't exactly new either.

asiacheetah said:

Different panels of judges, different events. People are human. They're not going to be 100% correct all the time especially since they don't have the benefit of multiple camera angles.

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Bogus reason, right along with "not enough camera angles". If it's such a hard job to do an even, accurate job, they should drop the pretence of having a technical panel. No calls for anyone.

chopinskate said:

Bogus reason, right along with "not enough camera angles". If it's such a hard job to do an even, accurate job, they should drop the pretence of having a technical panel. No calls for anyone.

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Let's be honest - the only time a tech panel is ever accurate/qualified/suitable is when we ourselves actually agree with them. Tech panels can't exactly distill the hours certain people (with more bias, mind you) spend on frame by frame replays. They also assess jumps differently (harsher or more lenient) than we do.

While there were a lot of lips, the tech panel at Skate America could be getting into the nitty gritty here... some skaters (eg Sakamoto) are on an outside edge and then flip over onto the inside edge at the last second. Many skaters don't have a clear inside edge entry going into their flip, and so a ! from a strict tech caller is hardly unexpected.

At least the SA tech panel was equally a stickler across the field (and certainly didn't let American skaters off the hook, as we saw Zhou, Chen, Ma and Tennell all get lip calls).

I find the RFI-LBI Mohawk (well, more like, RFI-LFO-Choctaw, and quick change of change on takeoff, as it were) entry in particular seems to cause lip calls in multiple skaters.

People wondering how someone like Sakamoto can get flutz and lip calls (!)... well it's because the edge, to the tech panel, is *unclear*. Theoretically a skater could have a lip and a flutz in their program, if the entry edge in each one is not obvious (as in a controlled edge, not a last second switch from outside to inside on takeoff in a flip, for example). The same way we have seen skaters with two lutzes get an edge call on one but not the other... jumps aren't always executed the same each time, nor are they assessed the same each time.

And this tech panel at SA was clearly not giving skaters the benefit of the doubt for intended edge and wanted to see a definitive edge on all these flip and lutz jumps.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Let's be honest - the only time a tech panel is ever accurate/qualified/suitable is when we ourselves actually agree with them.

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As I let you know in another thread, stop projecting.

For the rest of your post, have fun justifying all the calls through the season. Especially when I've seen you say that all skaters have their own technique in jumps, and therefore the "picky fans" should stop their nitpicking with the technique of skaters they "simply don't like". Nice to know the tech panel turned into picky fans, since they always have their own support in you.

Come on guys let’s be chill. Different strokes for different folks.

I personally loved the harshness of the panel at SA and like I said earlier I want to give them the benefit of the doubt - perhaps they saw something we did not? I liked the harshness because, at the beginning of the season it’s a warning to the Skaters that they will not let the mistakes of last season slide.

Does anyone have any video evidence of an example of a wrong call at SA?

Waiting to see how some of the more egregious flutzers are judged on the rest of the GP. For now it's looking like a similar situation to Mao's lutz early in her career and the standards for the flip have drastically changed. It's the only thing that can explain the number of calls. I have to say I'm surprised because a slight inside edge is a correct and natural technique for the flip... Oh well.

chopinskate said:

As I let you know in another thread, stop projecting.

For the rest of your post, have fun justifying all the calls through the season. Especially when I've seen you say that all skaters have their own technique in jumps, and therefore the "picky fans" should stop their nitpicking with the technique of skaters they "simply don't like". Nice to know the tech panel turned into picky fans, since they always have their own support in you.

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Lol, chill! It was a joke. (See, Laughey Smilie... joke!) I was poking fun at the fact that there are many fans who have a biased predisposition as to how the tech panel should assess certain skaters, based on who are their faves/non-faves, and will accordingly critique technical panel's decisions which don't align with that.

Projecting? LOL, riight. Obviously I only think that a panel is right only when they wholly agree with me. :sarcasm: (I should clarify, that was another sarcastic joke.. see, I used italics, and another Smilie... just in case!) Some tech specialists are more lenient or more picky than us, they have access to better technology, they're being paid to do this instead of us being casual viewers who have less training and likely more bias than them, etc. Whatever floats their boat -- as long said tech panelist treats all skaters similarly in that competition with equal assessment and with (minimal and ideally) no bias, it's cool.

As for the rest of the post, I will have fun justifying or criticizing tech panel calls through the season.... that's what we're here for, boo! Like everyone here, I call it as I see it, and we debate, but really our opinions are inconsequential - the protocols are as called, and that's what the skaters care about. Ultimately, I don't really care that much if a panel is super picky or lenient. If anything, a picky tech specialist can incite skaters to improve their techniques from merely "acceptable"/"sufficient" to unquestionably sound.

If fans want to nitpick, they are free to do so. But I'mma call a spade a spade and say that for certain folks there's definitely considerable bias that plays into who and what they choose to nitpick and who they give a free pass to. So of course, when a tech panel disagrees with them, there are the inevitable posts trying to discredit them or calling them blind or whatever. Same goes for PCS, when their fave skater isn't awarded personal bests every time they set foot on the ice, while their rivals aren't sufficiently held down on PCS (as they see fit, of course) or called for more deductions.


In terms of the lip, I've explained why the tech panel might have called several of them.

Tech Panel Anti/Youtube troll vid/etc.: "The tech panel called the flip of this skater (who I happen to like) as an lip... sure they had an outside edge leading into it, but if we freeze it to these 1 or 2 split second frames before takeoff, we can see that they clearly switched to a slight inside edge at the very last moment... how did the tech panel not catch this in replay?"

AFAIK, the tech panel reviews things in slow motion and not frame by frame for everything... they do not have the hours to review/scrutinize every jump frame by frame the way fans with time on their hands have the luxury of being able to do. If a skater switches their entry edge (which looks outside going into the jump) into an inside edge at the last possible moment on takeoff, then it's possible that the edge will be called as unclear and given a (!).

Roast Toast said:

Waiting to see how some of the more egregious flutzers are judged on the rest of the GP. For now it's looking like a similar situation to Mao's lutz early in her career and the standards for the flip have drastically changed. It's the only thing that can explain the number of calls. I have to say I'm surprised because a slight inside edge is a correct and natural technique for the flip... Oh well.

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I think we have to see more competitions to see if this higher flip standard is actually a thing. There's a growing number of lip calls, but perhaps that's because some lips should have been called out more in the first place, or tech panels are getting stricter (like with URs). In any case, it's a rise in ! instead of e, so it's a GOE thing than a BV hit.

If panels are starting to crack down on skaters for not having a clear inside edge, then that's fine, so long as the scrutiny is equally applied for every skater in an event, and it's not just reputation/location based assessment (which, some skaters have benefited from in the past). Skate America clearly had neither, giving lip calls to many US skaters, including the reigning singles champs.

Poor Gracie. :sad21:

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

AFAIK, the tech panel reviews things in slow motion and not frame by frame for everything... they do not have the hours to review/scrutinize every jump frame by frame the way fans with time on their hands have the luxury of being able to do. If a skater switches their entry edge (which looks outside going into the jump) into an inside edge at the last possible moment on takeoff, then it's possible that the edge will be called as unclear and given a (!).

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If you had a proper set-up, it wouldn't take much time at all - just run the camera feed that NBC uses. It's the awful camera set-up ISU has that makes this difficult and time consuming. But assuming it's not incompetence, the tech panel should be cognizant of their technological limitations. If they cannot be absolutely certain, it should not be called. We've had the "benefit of the doubt" standard since the beginning of COP - why have a few tech callers decided to throw that caution to the wind?

schizoanalyst said:

If you had a proper set-up, it wouldn't take much time at all - just run the camera feed that NBC uses. It's the awful camera set-up ISU has that makes this difficult and time consuming. But assuming it's not incompetence, the tech panel should be cognizant of their technological limitations. If they cannot be absolutely certain, it should not be called. We've had the "benefit of the doubt" standard since the beginning of COP - why have a few tech callers decided to throw that caution to the wind?

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Shouldn't it be: "if they cannot be absolutely certain what the edge is, it should be called." I mean, the ! is literally give for an "unclear" edge.

As in, only if the edge is clearly incorrect can they give the "e". And if it's clearly correct, they don't give any tech call.

What the tech specialist at Skate America was saying to many skaters is, the entry edge of your flip jumps isn't clear. Which make sense if you note that some of them enter the jump intending to do a RFI-LBI mohawk, actually do a RFI-LBO Choctaw instead and then on takeoff switch over to the inside edge. This makes the edge unclear - though not incorrect (and worthy of an "e").

For a while now, I actually thought Chen's or Zhou's flip should get flagged for an unclear entry... I just didn't expect them to get it on home ice!

This year:
Lz calls: 11 calls for men and 30 calls for ladies
F calls: 29 calls for men and 45 calls for ladies
Ratio: for each Lz call, men got 4.5 F calls and ladies got 1.5 F calls

Last year:
Lz calls: 7 calls for men and 24 calls for ladies
F calls: 50 calls for men and 33 calls for ladies
Ratio: for each Lz call, men got 3.4 F calls and ladies got 0.7 F calls


(i am counting both ! and e, and adding together SP and FS, since its same people skating)

2018 CS Asian Open Figure Skating Trophy
Men: 4 calls on Lutz and 7 calls on Flip
Ladies: 4 calls on Lutz and 4 calls on Flip

2018 CS Lombardia Trophy
Men: no calls
Ladies: 2 calls on Lutz and 8 calls on Flip

2018 CS U.S. International Figure Skating Classic
Men: 2 calls on Lutz and 7 calls on Flip
Ladies: 6 calls on Lutz and 1 calls on Flip

2018 CS Ondrej Nepela Trophy
Men: 0 calls on Lutz and 15 calls on Flip
Ladies: 0 calls on Lutz and 6 calls on Flip

2018 CS Autumn Classic International
Men: 1 calls on Lutz and 10 calls on Flip
Ladies: 11 calls on Lutz and 7 calls on Flip

2018 CS Nebelhorn Trophy
Men: 2 calls on Lutz and 0 calls on Flip
Ladies: 5 calls on Lutz and 1 calls on Flip

2018 CS Finlandia Trophy
Men: 0 calls on Lutz and 0 calls on Flip
Ladies: 1 calls on Lutz and 7 calls on Flip

2018 Skate America
Men: 2 calls on Lutz and 11 calls on Flip
Ladies: 1 calls on Lutz and 11 calls on Flip

Now, previous year, up to the first GP.

2017 CS U.S. International Figure Skating Classic
Men: 2 calls on Lutz and 1 calls on Flip
Ladies: 2 calls on Lutz and 1 calls on Flip

2017 CS Lombardia Trophy
Men: 0 calls on Lutz and 6 calls on Flip
Ladies: 12 calls on Lutz and 7 calls on Flip

2017 CS Autumn Classic International
Men: 5 calls on Lutz and 8 calls on Flip
Ladies: 0 calls on Lutz and 9 calls on Flip

2017 CS Ondrej Nepela Trophy
Men: 3 calls on Lutz and 5 calls on Flip
Ladies: 3 calls on Lutz and 2 calls on Flip

2017 CS Nebelhorn Trophy
Men: 5 calls on Lutz and 1 calls on Flip
Ladies: 8 calls on Lutz and 3 calls on Flip

2017 CS Finlandia Trophy
Men: 0 calls on Lutz and 3 calls on Flip
Ladies: 1 calls on Lutz and 5 calls on Flip

2017 Rostelecom Cup
Men: 2 calls on Lutz and 0 calls on Flip
Ladies: 3 calls on Lutz and 6 calls on Flip

- - - Updated - - -

Either its called differently, or people suddenly started lipping much more

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Shouldn't it be: "if they cannot be absolutely certain what the edge is, it should be called." I mean, the ! is literally give for an "unclear" edge.

As in, only if the edge is clearly incorrect can they give the "e". And if it's clearly correct, they don't give any tech call.

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A flat is hit with a (!) for a lutz. It's a "clearly incorrect" way of the lutz, to my understanding. Would you like it to be hit with an (e)?

The lutz was always about entering the jump on the correct, outside edge, and flutzers would switch over to the wrong edge as they took off.

For lippers it's usually the opposite - their entry edge after the intended mohawk/3turn (turned choctaw/counter) is actually on an incorrect, outside edge and they fail to sufficiently correct it as they takeoff (or they switch over at the last moment after they've already picked in and are leaving the ice so the inside edge is actually unclear).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-w3sl84Wj0#t=6m5s - if you slow it down, it's obvious that Kaori goes on an outside edge before switching to a flat/inside edge at the last second. It almost looks like she's doing a flutz.

Maybe the ISU is starting to take this as an unclear entry edge and would rather see skaters turn/step onto a clear LBI edge before picking in, instead of the skater switching to the correct edge at the last second/on takeoff.