How much further can figure skating develop technically?

IceBallerina · Oct 14, 2018

I welcome everyone here to put as much thought, opinion, and analysis into this topic since I find it so intriguing.

Figure skating is a sport that is always changing, always developing. In order to gain an edge on competitors, skaters push for harder and harder tech content. This is not new, it's been a part of the sport since the beginning. But we have to wonder, where does it all end?

As someone on this very forum said, Hanyu could very well be entering one of the final frontiers of men's figure skating with his quad axel. All other quads have already been landed in competitions. One of the biggest remaining elements is a quad + quad combination. Other than that, what more could be done? Could we see quintuples in the future? I am sure we will one day, but I don't think there will be a "quintuple revolution".

Right now, we are seeing the quad revolution in the ladies. Trusova, Shcherbakova, Tarakanova, Berestovskaia, and more Russian ladies are landing/attempting quads. Alysa Liu has joined the quad lutz frenzy. Elizabet Tursynbaeva has landed a quad salchow before, we could see it again soon. Evgenia Medvedeva recently said she'd like to try a quad salchow once her body heals. The only remaining jumps are the axel, loop, and flip. I doubt we will be seeing a quad axel from any of these ladies, it may be three years or a few decades before we see that (if at all). I have my money on Sasha for the quad flip and loop. The same question for the men applies here - where does it end? I love to joke about Trusova landing a quintuple, but I don't know if that is something we will ever see.

Are we approaching the technical limit for figure skating? There is only so many turns a skater can do in the air. There is only so much the body can handle. So what do you think, are the boundaries about to be reached?

Ic3Rabbit · Oct 14, 2018

With the quads, it will be pretty much done for awhile technically, for the most part.

Genuine artistry and focus on edge quality could be brought back, that would continue to stretch skating, just sayin'. :coffee:

DanseMacabre · Oct 14, 2018

Ic3Rabbit said:
With the quads, it will be pretty much done for awhile technically, for the most part.

Genuine artistry and focus on edge quality could be brought back, that would continue to stretch skating, just sayin'.

The tea is nice and hot today. :coffee:

I think we've maxed out on what the laws of physics and biology will allow with quads (though there's still plenty more there to mine like 4-4 and the quad axel, but I wouldn't hold my breath). But that still leaves plenty of other areas of the sport that can continue to develop and evolve.

NaVi · Oct 15, 2018

I've said this before, but they could start measuring airtime rather than revolutions.

The whole combo system could be reworked to reward new things. A long time ago I saw Alexey Erokhov do a 3Lz+4T combination and while doing that could be nice in the SP it hasn't been done in competition as far as I know. Petr Gumennik does 3A+3Lo which is rare these days but was done more often in the 90s IIRC. There's no benefit at all for doing 3-3-3 combinations. On twitter I saw a video of Midori Ito intentionally(i think) doing a 2Lo+3Lo combination which is not something ever done in competition(or any 2-3 combinations) Jill Trenary did one foot axels into a 3S... I'm unsure if these days it could be counted as a difficult transition or not or if they would count it as a jump.

vunhung3001 · Oct 15, 2018

Rika Kihira has a great success rate on 3A ( around 70%). There were footage of her's 4S and 4T in practice. She said once her quads got more consistent, she would add it in her programs. She also can jump 3lz3lo and 3fl3lo. Even without quads and 3lzlo/3fl3lo, with 3 3As ( one in SP, two in FS), her TES will challenge Alina's.

oatmella · Oct 15, 2018

I think 4A is about the technical limit. Likely to be landed first by Yuzuru or maybe Keegan Messing!

Nathan was asked about the possibility of a 4-4 (“I haven’t really tried it”):
https://youtu.be/8w0rGB2ujlE

draqq · Oct 15, 2018

I don't think skating can really improve technically really. As some already shared, the 4-4 and 4A will be the final frontiers.

But if we're talking about standard technique, I think that some of the basics have fallen a little bit due to the IJS system rewarding difficult positions. I don't know the last time I've seen a basic sit spin with a strong, straight back - most of the time it's in a tuck/cannonball position. I rarely see a held attitude position for the layback; instead, we have stronger Biellmann and I-spins. It's rare to see a held ina baeur with a fully arced back or a held classic spiral.

I also thought that Patrick Chan and partially Han Yan would cultivate a trend for strong, deep edges and turns done with blistering speed, but I don't see much of that, which is not surprising given that quads and jump GOEs are valued more.

Shayuki · Oct 15, 2018

Plenty more could be done. That could require rule changes, however. I guess the 4A-4Lo-4T combo is where it's at, until someone begins landing quints.

Still, I'd like to see a bit more emphasis on difficult steps. When dozens upon dozens of skaters can get lvl 4 step sequences, it clearly isn't challenging enough. Perhaps that'd require inventing new steps or having far stricter requirements but I think that there's a lot more that could be explored on that front.

DSQ · Oct 15, 2018

Shayuki said:
Still, I'd like to see a bit more emphasis on difficult steps. When dozens upon dozens of skaters can get lvl 4 step sequences, it clearly isn't challenging enough. Perhaps that'd require inventing new steps or having far stricter requirements but I think that there's a lot more that could be explored on that front.

^Agreed.

Personally I say never say never to quints. People didn’t think we could land quads so I’m sure there is some technique we can’t even comprehend that will bring us the first quint.

chopinskate · Oct 15, 2018

There are 4+4s, there will be more people who'll try to get the full set of quads except the 4A, there's the 4A, there are people who will try to get the full set of quads including the 4A, no one's done a 4Lo in combo, no one's done a 4+3Lo combo in competition yet (I know Plushy tried it in practice or something), there's the 3A+3Lo which might become more common. Lot's of things. The RuleBook needs to change and be less dumb about the difficulty of some of those things, too, and the tech panel needs to step it up.

DSQ said:
^Agreed.

Personally I say never say never to quints. People didn’t think we could land quads so I’m sure there is some technique we can’t even comprehend that will bring us the first quint.

That too.

Stronger spins and steps need to be encouraged somehow, too.

I'd also like to see ACTUAL programs and performances, and REAL judging, DESERVED GOEs and PCS to go along with that. Otherwise it's just quads = PCS, and advancement in only one area of the sport that claims it's two things at once. It's bound to be more of a challenge that way, too.

Atlantis · Oct 15, 2018

If I have to guess, jump technique might be comletely re-done for quints to gain more power on take off (or maybe it will be possible with what we call today "cheating technique"? Lol, idk). It's just a blind guess as it's still so far away in the future.. After 4A men will have to completely stabilize quads and jump it as easy as triples. Maybe 20 years in the future we will see lots of clean programs with 4-5 quads and the one whose performance is cleaner will win.

As for ladies quad revolution, I believe the real revolution is still avaiting. Ladies are yet to learn how to jump quads in grown up bodies, but it will be reality for sure one day and it will change ladies field completely. If that's going to be true, I think they will come the same way as men did, first there will be lots of falls and unclean programs. So far, we have a few prodigies jumping quads, but we also had ladies jumping 3As 30 years ago.. And 3A is still not a common element.

So quads for ladies, very first quints for men.. Seems like a lot of work already for the next 100 years or so, so I wouldn't be worried that figure skating might stagnate.

solani · Oct 15, 2018

NaVi said:
I've said this before, but they could start measuring airtime rather than revolutions.

I disagree. It's not easy to stop a fast rotation, so airtime isn't everything. But I also think that the ISU should change the combo scoring system. It's not only unfair, it's also boring, more variety would be fun!

DSQ · Oct 15, 2018

Change the combo scoring system in what way?

chopinskate · Oct 15, 2018

DSQ said:
Change the combo scoring system in what way?

I'd assume they mean changing the way +3Lo combos are scored, for one. It is also nonsensical to have the +3T combos be the same x1 bonus for all the first jumps in combo -- it'd be more difficult to do it out of a 3F, more so out of a 3Lz, even more out of a 4T, and extremely hard out of a 4Lz. Same for +3Lo, for that matter.

Also, the "late in the program" multiplier is weird. Out of the final three jumps that one can do for the bonus currently in an LP, someone who does a 3A first off gets the same multiplier as someone who does it as their last jump.

treblemakerem · Oct 15, 2018

I would like to see more interesting combos. Dimitriev did 3lz+3f combo. Unfortunately the way the scoring is there's not much incentive for this type of thing but maybe in the future there could be. It would be interesting to see all different combos rather than always only loop and toeloop as second jump.

gmyers · Oct 15, 2018

Trusova has thrown a lot of beliefs out the window!! Could go much further than imagined!!!!!!!

rinkside_user · Oct 15, 2018

A short feature on a theoretical quintuple jump from the perspective of physics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7AjF4of300

Elucidus · Oct 15, 2018

Just two words: skating boots. When there is limit in human body - sport tools should help. Correct me if I am wrong - but in speed skating there were some generations of skating boots - each new adding to maximum speed of an athlete, weren't they? And they weren't considering as cheating or anything. Actually I am surprised that still we haven't heard about any progress on that front in fs (well, there were new blades by some japanese company - but they didn't add anything to help with jumps except extra sturdiness) or of a passive attitude of R&D departments of boot companies. I mean there are quite a lot of them - where their rivalry and passion, I wonder?
I don't know how it is applicable in practice - I am not an engineer or physicist - however I had this obvious idea long time ago already: why not add some kind of ressors or springs under blades in boots? Of course the main purpose there would be to soften constant impacts from landings to the body - thus diminishing risk of injuries and harm to health greatly. But it could help in attaining more height in the jumps too. Which in turn can make quintiples possible.

Yoa · Oct 15, 2018

oatmella said:
I think 4A is about the technical limit. Likely to be landed first by Yuzuru or maybe Keegan Messing!

Nathan was asked about the possibility of a 4-4 (“I haven’t really tried it”):
https://youtu.be/8w0rGB2ujlE

Is Keegan still practising 4A? I think I read somewhere that he stopped doing it to focus on this season.
Artur Dmitriev jr is also practicing 4A. He tried it in competiton before but it was downgraded.

NaVi · Oct 17, 2018

Something else that could be done is to raise the bonus for quads in the 2nd half and perhaps triple axels too.

How much further can figure skating develop technically?

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