Women and the Quad

VenusHalley said:

Why do people insists on taking achievement from Miki Ando? She was the first to land a quad.

Trusova was second. She was first to land multiple quads.

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Ando's quad would be considered << by today's standards

BillNeal said:

Quads may be impressive for some but for me, I much rather watch Liza's beautiful 3A or Caro's impressive 3Lz, both with excellent technique, helping them keep their jumps through senoirs, and the rotations are done in the air. Hoping they share the European or Worlds podium this season .

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:sarcasm: Good for you. Perhaps this is the wrong thread for you. The title is literally “quad watch.” Maybe come back in a few years when you can pass judgement on whether these girls’ technique as seniors is worthy of your admiration.

I’m sorry if I’m getting a bit annoying by replying once a day with a new video but here’s Kimmy Repond, it’s severly under tho. https://www.instagram.com/p/BqjRsPyCizo/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=b21jg0d0pegq

sk8ingedge said:

I’m sorry if I’m getting a bit annoying by replying once a day with a new video&#55357;&#56834; but here’s Kimmy Repond, it’s severly under tho. https://www.instagram.com/p/BqjRsPyCizo/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=b21jg0d0pegq

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I would consider this as a triple salchow with a bad landing. It's more than 270 degrees short of rotation and therefore not even 4S<<

sk8ingedge said:

I’m sorry if I’m getting a bit annoying by replying once a day with a new video&#55357;&#56834; but here’s Kimmy Repond, it’s severly under tho. https://www.instagram.com/p/BqjRsPyCizo/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=b21jg0d0pegq

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i'd say this attempt lacks the required height (and therefore the flight time) to be a quad attempt. Something like Dmitriev Jr. doing his 4A.

BillNeal said:

Quads may be impressive for some but for me, I much rather watch Liza's beautiful 3A or Caro's impressive 3Lz, both with excellent technique, helping them keep their jumps through senoirs, and the rotations are done in the air. Hoping they share the European or Worlds podium this season .

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OK look, I think these two have great technique generally, but I disagree with a lot of what you say in general, so what's another: these two jumps you mentioned for these skaters have given them the most problems, and they kept intermittently losing and getting these jumps back through seniors. Tukt's 3A isn't particularly done with great technique either, both Ito and Asada (in her earlier years) had better 3As. Before you say something else, Tukt's 3F isn't that impressive either.

Just some competition numbers so far

Trusova's quads in competiton over last two seasons, with BV+GOE recalculated with current values (GOE refactored from 3 to 5 scale)
With mistakes:
2T(popped) (2018 4th Russian Cup) 0.96
4S<<fall (2017 JGP Belarus) 2.15 - 1.00(fall deduction)
4T<fall (2017 Russian Cup Final) 3.57 - 1.00(fall deduction)
4S<fall (2017 JGP Final) 3.64 - 1.00(fall deduction)
4S<fall (2017 Russian Jr Nats) 3.64 - 1.00(fall deduction)
4S<fall (2017 3rd Russian Cup) 3.64 - 1.00(fall deduction)
4Tfall (2018 JGP Lithuania) 4.75 - 1.00(fall deduction)
4S< (2017 JGP Australia) 5.89
4S< (2017 5th Russian Cup) 6.07
4Lzfall (2018 4th Russian Cup) 6.44 - 1.00(fall deduction)
4Lz< (2018 JGP Lithuania) 8.02

Clean-ish:
4T (2017-18 JWC) 10.40
4Lz (2018 JGP Armenia) 11.50
4S (2017 Russian Cup Final) 12.93
4S (2017-18 JWC) 12.93
4T+3T (2018 JGP Lithuania) 16.14
4Lz+3T (2018 4th Russian Cup) 20.30


Shcherbakova's quads in competition this season
With mistakes:
4Lz<fall (2018 JGP Canada) 4.31 - 1.00(fall deduction)
4Lz<fall (2018 4th Russian Cup) 4.31 - 1.00(fall deduction)

Clean-ish:
4Lz (2018 2nd Russian Cup) 13.11
4Lz+3T (2018 2nd Russian Cup) 14.55
4Lz+3T (2018 4th Russian Cup) 19.84


Tuktamysheva's 3As in competition this season
With mistakes:
3Afall (2018 GP Canada) 4.00 - 1.00(fall deduction)
3A (2018 CS Lombardia) 5.92

Clean-ish:
3A (2018 CS Finlandia) 7.20
3A (2018 GP NHK) 7.66
3A (2018 CS Finlandia) 7.73
3A (2018 GP Canada) 9.03
3A (2018 GP NHK) 10.06


Kihira's 3As in competition over last two seasons
With mistakes:
1A*(popped) (2018 GP France) 0.00
1A(popped) (2017 JGP Final) 1.07
1A(popped) (2017-18 JWC) 1.21
1A(popped) (2017-18 JWC) 1.27
3A<fall (2018 GP NHK) 3.00 - 1.00(fall deduction)
3Afall (2017 JGP Latvia) 4.00 - 1.00(fall deduction)
3Afall (2018 CS Nepela) 4.00 - 1.00(fall deduction)
3A< (2018 GP France) 4.97
3A (2017 JGP Italy) 5.33

Clean-ish:
3A (2018 Western Section) 8.00
3A (2017 Asian Open) 8.53
3A (2018 Western Section) 9.44
3A (2017 Jpn Nationals) 9.91
3A (2017 Jpn Nationals) 10.28
3A (2017 Jr Western Section) 10.40
3A (2018 CS Nepela) 10.40
3A (2017 Jpn Jr Nationals) 10.93
3A (2018 GP NHK) 11.09
3A+2T (2018 Western Section) 11.54
3A+3T (2018 CS Nepela) 14.44
3A+3T (2017 JGP Final) 14.68
3A+3T (2018 GP NHK) 14.83
3A+3T (2017 Jpn Nationals) 14.68
3A+3T (2017 Jr Western Section) 14.87
3A+3T+2T (2017 Jpn Jr Nationals) 16.70




Some stats

Trusova
Clean: 6 / 17 (35%)
Clean internationally: 4 / 9 (44%)
Clean this season: 3 / 7 (43%)
Clean this season internationally: 2 / 4 (50%)

Shcherbakova
Clean: 3 / 5 (60%)
Clean internationally: 0 / 1 (0%)

Kihira
Clean: 16 / 25 (64%)
Clean internationally: 6 / 15 (40%)
Clean this season: 7 / 11 (63%)
Clean this season internationally: 4 / 8 (50%)

Tuktamysheva
Clean internationally: 5 / 7 (71%)


Average Scores (fall deductions are added in)
(internationally / domestically / when clean / this season)

Trusova
4S 5.65 / 6.07 / 12.93 / ?
4T 7.08 / 1.76 / 10.4 / 4.71
4Lz 9.76 / 5.44 / 11.50 / 8.32
4T+3T 16.14 / ? / 16.14 / 16.14
4Lz+3T ? / 20.30 / 20.30 / 20.30

Shcherbakova
4Lz 3.31 / 8.21 / 13.11 / 6.58
4Lz+3T ? / 17.20 / 17.20 / 17.20

Tuktamysheva
3A 7.23 / ? / 8.33 / 7.23

Kihira
3A 4.32 / 9.83 / 9.89 / 6.11
3A+3T 14.65 / 13.70 / 14.18 / 13.60
3A+3T+2T ? / 16.70 / 16.70 / ?

I just leave it here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVGcJ8Q-oYA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4wDOScZ4Gs another angle
It's a pity that she couldn't do it properly in competition but jumping 3 clean quads one after another in run-through definitely is more than lucky occurence and most likely happens more often than we could think. I see high amount of work there.

P.S.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO6ibWgl_rQ perfect 4T :shocked: (it's easily on par with any top man 4T if not better than many of them)

cell said:

Ando's quad would be considered << by today's standards

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And some of Trusova's quads last year would be considered < by today's standards (1/4 rotation being still UR and it having to be less than that). Standards change but it doesn't make things less noteworthy. Years from now skaters could be docked for not taking off their jumps with as little prerotation as Kim or landing their jumps with as much rotation as Gold, in their prime.

I think this past JGPF is a reminder for why some of us are skeptical of junior ladies doing quads. Those quad lutz falls were truly hard to watch. I myself had to stop the video when watching Trusova's performance the first time, shortly after she took that nasty fall on her side, poor girl. Quads are impressive when successful but can be quite scary when they aren't. Hopefully, Alena's win sends a message and slows down this trend, so these young ladies can attempt less quads and slowly adapt rather than rushing to get as many rotations in as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enc_IUHj4oE
just leaving it here :scard7:

Elucidus said:

https://youtu.be/zydZ8k3CB2c
just leaving it here :scard7:

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I wonder how long it will take for her to start doing 4-4-4-4-4-... in practice, just like other Eteri girls used to do 3-3-3-3-3-...

Elucidus said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enc_IUHj4oE
just leaving it here :scard7:

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Its official...she's an alien. :dance2:

Quad Flip from Sasha.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Br8Go4Nh-TE/
Now in her arsenal four quad jumps (S,T,Lz,F).

GINO said:

Quad Flip from Sasha.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Br8Go4Nh-TE/
Now in her arsenal four quad jumps (S,T,Lz,F).

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It was.. fast :shocked: (I meant learning speed)
Here is other version where you can see it in slow-mo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6VhqqyEaCw
It seems it was borderline under, but still 80 degree, I think. Now question is -whether they would intend to nclude it in programs or not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqwoNJzVD_g
Zagitova is learning 4F

Elucidus said:

It was.. fast :shocked: (I meant learning speed)
Here is other version where you can see it in slow-mo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6VhqqyEaCw
It seems it was borderline under, but still 80 degree, I think. Now question is -whether they would intend to nclude it in programs or not?

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My guess is that she will try it in competition, at least to get it ratified.

Gah. She's still facing forwards on her takeoff. Although I do prefer her 4F to Shoma's.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

And some of Trusova's quads last year would be considered < by today's standards (1/4 rotation being still UR and it having to be less than that). Standards change but it doesn't make things less noteworthy. Years from now skaters could be docked for not taking off their jumps with as little prerotation as Kim or landing their jumps with as much rotation as Gold, in their prime.

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I really hope not. That should just be a GOE thing and the judges have plenty of range to address it that way as is. They just need to improve the judging and really it’s only by a little bit IMO. I’d absolutely become very bored with the TP getting even more involved. I think things are becoming over scrutinized as it is now

Sam-Skwantch said:

I really hope not. That should just be a GOE thing and the judges have plenty of range to address it that way as is. They just need to improve the judging and really it’s only by a little bit IMO. I’d absolutely become very bored with the TP getting even more involved. I think things are becoming over scrutinized as it is now

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I get what you mean, since it's frustrating to see a skater's tech.score go down miles during the wait in K&C. But there'd still be a problem of fairness if tech panel didn't thoroughly check the rotations. It wouldn't encourage anyone to land clean jumps if there wasn't consequence for failing to do so.
And it really can't be placed from TP to a GOE issue, since the panel of judges who give GOE don't get to see slow-motions or even different angles, so I think it really should be the tech panel's responsibility to check if the rotations are there. Maybe it'd be good if there'd be a bit less carrot for prerotation than underrotating the landing? There's always things to improve in creating a more fair judging system, and changing some rules and protocols every now and then will usually push a sport forward.

Anyways, back to topic. Rika's (ur) 4S from practice in 2017. This video was also circulated on insta, but here's a better quality : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY1Dv0qDEr4
I wonder if she'll add it to her programs by next year?