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Thread: Quad Watch (Ladies)

  1. #81
    Believe in Yourself! Elucidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    It's not really a lutz if you don't vault off a toe and turn with almost the full blade and jump forwards.
    Veteran american jumping coach Doug thinks otherwise though
    https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=2135
    https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=2486

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    Veteran american jumping coach Doug thinks otherwise though
    https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=2135
    https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=2486
    If you listen to what he says, he never says the full blade assist is correct technique. Rather, he avoids the question by saying that we shouldn't add more cameras and play it in slow motion to see the full blade assist, and compared it to Tara Lipinski's 3Lo-3Lo that was UR, so he's not actually supporting that technique. The only issue is that the takeoff is often visible in real time.

  3. #83
    Believe in Yourself! Elucidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    If you listen to what he says, he never says the full blade assist is correct technique. Rather, he avoids the question by saying that we shouldn't add more cameras and play it in slow motion to see the full blade assist, and compared it to Tara Lipinski's 3Lo-3Lo that was UR, so he's not actually supporting that technique. The only issue is that the takeoff is often visible in real time.
    You just are not capable to read what other people implying, do you? What he meant is that whole issue is not important enough to even begin to discuss it (and most likely he is admitting such technique is prevalent everywhere including his own pupils) and being too picky about perfect jump technique means destroying the sport. This is important position considering the guy is (or was) ISU tech specialist as well.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    You just are not capable to read what other people implying, do you? What he meant is that whole issue is not important enough to even begin to discuss it (and most likely he is admitting such technique is prevalent everywhere including his own pupils) and being too picky about perfect jump technique means destroying the sport. This is important position considering the guy is (or was) ISU tech specialist as well.
    You're not capable of having a civil conversation without the urge to put others down for having a different viewpoint, are you?

    His point is essentially that if we can't see it in real time, we shouldn't worry about it. He's not being dismissive; his focus is on the viewer's enjoyment and is implying that this technique isn't visually destructive enough to warrant investigation. Essentially, he feels it would have to be of a larger magnitude to require anyone to do anything about it. That's not the same as saying it's not a problem. His analogy with Lipinski's UR loop combination means he knows the current lutz technique is flawed.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingedge View Post
    In other news, we all saw Alina’s 4F on the harness. I really hope she is just doing it to improve the rotation and height of her 3F, not to actually try a quad off the harness. She struggles with rotating her triples, so a quad just isn’t realistic for her.
    I wouldn't be surprised if this is yet another smoke and mirrors attempt by her team to get people to focus less on the uncalled UR's. I mean hey, our student is now attempting a QUAD!, what problems could there possibly be with her triples, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingedge View Post
    In other news, we all saw Alina’s 4F on the harness. I really hope she is just doing it to improve the rotation and height of her 3F, not to actually try a quad off the harness. She struggles with rotating her triples, so a quad just isn’t realistic for her.
    I think they were just having a bit of a lighthearted session before New Year break and let her try for fun and confidence. And to have something positive to show on social media after RusNats.

  7. #87
    All Hail Empress Eteri Spirals for Miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillNeal View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if this is yet another smoke and mirrors attempt by her team to get people to focus less on the uncalled UR's. I mean hey, our student is now attempting a QUAD!, what problems could there possibly be with her triples, right?
    Or it's just an attempt to try and have a bit of fun with a 4F on harness. I doubt it's serious as she has Euros and Worlds still. Probably just working on advanced jumps within that as Sasha had a 4F too.

  8. #88
    Medalist kwanatic's Avatar
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    I don't doubt Alina can feel the heat at her back. I feel sorry for her TBH. She's in the path to get steam-rolled by Eteri's upcoming girls and I'm sure she can feel the pressure to step her game up. As of now her jump content is pretty much maxed out: two lutzes, two flips, level 4s. The only thing she could do to boost her score would be to move the 3Lz-3T from the 1st half to the 2nd half bonus but that will barely make a dent next to a program with multiple quads or 3As. She has to up her arsenal which is why I suppose she's playing around with quads now.

    Alina is not a powerful jumper. Her jumps aren't particularly high nor do they cover a ton of ice. She's an average height jumper which is why a quad seems pretty unlikely for her. Her 2A isn't a big jump for her and she's not a fast rotater either so I can't really see her getting a 3A. Beyond a PCS advantage (which will likely disappear as the other girls start to emerge) there isn't much Alina can do to hold off Anna, Alexandra and Alena. It will be interesting to see what strategy Eteri's team comes up with for her next season. However, with her current struggles and the fact that the Wave of As is coming next year, I feel like things are only going to get harder for Alina.

  9. #89
    You Know I'm a FS Fan... BillNeal's Avatar
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    Alina needs to find a new coach ASAP. Her jumps and skating skills have deteriorated from last season and her coaching team is having her attempt a quad instead of addressing the actual issues? Her choreography for both programs is a mess. She got passed by all three of her younger teammates at Nationals. Her team doesn't seem to have her best interests and seems more focused on the next generation, as is too common with Eteri and company. It's time for her to move on and get a head start before she is unable to challenge for GP titles even.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillNeal View Post
    Alina needs to find a new coach ASAP.
    And who would be the best for her?

  11. #91
    All Hail Empress Eteri Spirals for Miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillNeal View Post
    Alina needs to find a new coach ASAP. Her jumps and skating skills have deteriorated from last season and her coaching team is having her attempt a quad instead of addressing the actual issues? Her choreography for both programs is a mess. She got passed by all three of her younger teammates at Nationals. Her team doesn't seem to have her best interests and seems more focused on the next generation, as is too common with Eteri and company. It's time for her to move on and get a head start before she is unable to challenge for GP titles even.
    Alina got passed by all three of the 3A because she had an off day - with two falls and only 5 triples - and they did not. This is only the second time in her senior career that she's had what can really be called a bad skate, so it would seem a bit premature to call her done or doomed.

    Her skating skills have not deteriorated at all. There's a video - here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKpcMLdIc4 - in which Alina is fully able to complete the entire course. Others that they asked to try weren't able to. If she had poor skating skills, she couldn't possibly have done this.

    How can we say that her team doesn't have her best interests at heart? They've given her programs that will take her to the top while still being in her range of capabilities. They've been there for every setback and every challenge, and haven't given up on her since she came back to Eteri. She attempted a quad on a harness, yes, but that doesn't mean that they want to put it in her programs or that they think she should do it now. They know that that wouldn't make sense. Team Tutberidze has said that they limit quad attempts and take safety very seriously. I believe that, and we don't have any reason not to. They took out Alena's 3A and Anna's 4T, for example, when it became clear that it would be best to stop on those jumps for the time being.

    Alina has been successful both this season and last. Silver is not a loss, and the occasional podium-miss doesn't mean she's over. Russian Nationals is quite possibly the hardest competition to date, in terms of caliber. Never before have 10 skaters scored above 200, afaik, and certainly not at a national championship. This is to say that 5th at Russian Nationals isn't a sign that she is doomed. It shows the depth of the competition, instead.

    And Alina, on her worst day of the season, still scored well enough to place above 13 skaters at such a hard competition. That's pretty danged good, and I'm sure she's learned just as many lessons from that day as from her free skate in Milan. It's the failures, in addition to the successes, that help us as humans learn, and it's no different for an elite figure skater. She's just 16 and has many more years ahead of her, with plenty more to show the world, that it definitely is not time for her to move on. (unless it's her own choice to leave for her happiness and health, of course). One doesn't have to be a fan of Alina to realize that one bad day doesn't mean she's done, and I know that Alina will follow up on Russian Nationals with a great skate and score at Europeans

  12. #92
    Bona Fide Member Fluture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillNeal View Post
    Alina needs to find a new coach ASAP. Her jumps and skating skills have deteriorated from last season and her coaching team is having her attempt a quad instead of addressing the actual issues? Her choreography for both programs is a mess. She got passed by all three of her younger teammates at Nationals. Her team doesn't seem to have her best interests and seems more focused on the next generation, as is too common with Eteri and company. It's time for her to move on and get a head start before she is unable to challenge for GP titles even.
    Come on, that‘s a bit too harsh. She‘s medaled at GPF just a short time before Nationals. She had a bad skate, yes and she‘s struggling more this year than last year with her jumps but she‘s still proven that she‘s fairly competitive. Had she had a relatively clean skate at Nats, she would have won. She‘s not done. She‘s showing signs that are troubling, especially the frequent and many (often uncalled URs) and maybe her team are addressing them by doing quads to improve her height? I don‘t know how this works. I just hope they’re not risking anything. She was injured at the GPF so I really hope they’re careful... I know that it does look a bit questionable.

    I do wish they‘d focus more on skating skills but that doesn‘t only count for Alina but for their other skaters as well. It‘s pretty visible that her jumps and skating skills are deteriorating at the moment, just like they did for most skaters when they grew. I think she can overcome this, though. It will depend on what her coaching team does and whether they make the right decisions. I don‘t think she‘s done.

    And I doubt they‘ll add a quad to her arsenal soon. I think it was rather some sort of PR move to show all those who doubt her after Nationals that she‘s not done at all. I don‘t know... the juniors will be a danger for all of the current seniors next year, Alina is certainly not the only one.

    I do agree about her choreography somewhat. I think it might have been better for her if her team had decided to cut down the number of transitions a bit while she‘s maturing and struggling with her jumps. She‘s clearly capable of doing them as her programs last season had as many transitions and it never looked forced or slow at all. She‘s grown and her body has changed. I think it‘s amazing that she‘s still pulling of these crazy transitions while staying remotely clean with her jumps. I would have preferred for them to let her breathe a bit but I guess Alina wouldn‘t have wanted that anyway, so...

    Her SP music cuts... sigh, we‘ve had a lot of discussions about that. I agree, the many cuts are distracting but after having watched it a few times, I can focus on the beautiful parts in it. There are many in her POTO, it‘s just too many ideas put into such a short time.

    Her Carmen is good to my eyes. I don‘t see any particularly bad music cuts, I actually appreciate that they are not the most frequently used. The ending is bothering me a bit, the music ends kind of in nowhere, it‘s not a note that I‘d end a program with. I actually like the program, though, just would have cut some of the transitions until she‘s become more comfortable with them again. But overall, it‘s fine.

    What will really be interesting is how they handle next season with the juniors and Alina all in seniors. I hope they give them all programs that play to their strengths.

    Anyway: I doubt Alina would change coach. But still, out of interest, who would you suggest?

  13. #93
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    Alina needs a personal coach. Another reincarnation of Tutberidze, but only for her.
    The Dedicated one.
    Too expensive even for Russian OGM.

  14. #94
    Tripping on the Podium melgirl25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirals for Miles View Post
    Alina got passed by all three of the 3A because she had an off day - with two falls and only 5 triples - and they did not. This is only the second time in her senior career that she's had what can really be called a bad skate, so it would seem a bit premature to call her done or doomed.

    Her skating skills have not deteriorated at all. There's a video - here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKpcMLdIc4 - in which Alina is fully able to complete the entire course. Others that they asked to try weren't able to. If she had poor skating skills, she couldn't possibly have done this.

    How can we say that her team doesn't have her best interests at heart? They've given her programs that will take her to the top while still being in her range of capabilities. They've been there for every setback and every challenge, and haven't given up on her since she came back to Eteri. She attempted a quad on a harness, yes, but that doesn't mean that they want to put it in her programs or that they think she should do it now. They know that that wouldn't make sense. Team Tutberidze has said that they limit quad attempts and take safety very seriously. I believe that, and we don't have any reason not to. They took out Alena's 3A and Anna's 4T, for example, when it became clear that it would be best to stop on those jumps for the time being.

    Alina has been successful both this season and last. Silver is not a loss, and the occasional podium-miss doesn't mean she's over. Russian Nationals is quite possibly the hardest competition to date, in terms of caliber. Never before have 10 skaters scored above 200, afaik, and certainly not at a national championship. This is to say that 5th at Russian Nationals isn't a sign that she is doomed. It shows the depth of the competition, instead.

    And Alina, on her worst day of the season, still scored well enough to place above 13 skaters at such a hard competition. That's pretty danged good, and I'm sure she's learned just as many lessons from that day as from her free skate in Milan. It's the failures, in addition to the successes, that help us as humans learn, and it's no different for an elite figure skater. She's just 16 and has many more years ahead of her, with plenty more to show the world, that it definitely is not time for her to move on. (unless it's her own choice to leave for her happiness and health, of course). One doesn't have to be a fan of Alina to realize that one bad day doesn't mean she's done, and I know that Alina will follow up on Russian Nationals with a great skate and score at Europeans
    I just watched that obstacle course video. Sorry, I don't think successfully completing that equates good skating skills. I don't think that course is intended for that either. I wouldn't even call the first half of that course forward power pulls.

    Yuzu fell on that and he has some pretty good skills. I think he was hurt though. I think Alina has good skating skills but like most they could be worked on more.

  15. #95
    “I solemnly swear I’m up to no good” Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    Alina needs a personal coach. Another reincarnation of Tutberidze, but only for her.


    The Dedicated one.
    Sounds so epic!!

  16. #96
    Medalist kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirals for Miles View Post
    And Alina, on her worst day of the season, still scored well enough to place above 13 skaters at such a hard competition. That's pretty danged good, and I'm sure she's learned just as many lessons from that day as from her free skate in Milan. It's the failures, in addition to the successes, that help us as humans learn, and it's no different for an elite figure skater. She's just 16 and has many more years ahead of her, with plenty more to show the world, that it definitely is not time for her to move on. (unless it's her own choice to leave for her happiness and health, of course). One doesn't have to be a fan of Alina to realize that one bad day doesn't mean she's done, and I know that Alina will follow up on Russian Nationals with a great skate and score at Europeans
    I would agree that Alina isn't done. She's still very capable of being a top competitor among the rest of the field but it feels as though her days are numbered at the top of the Russian heap of ladies. She's still by far the strongest senior for Russia...however, she may find her way blocked next season. I definitely feel as though she has a great chance of repeating as European champion and earning world medal by the end of the season.

    Her skating skills haven't really diminished too badly (though I never thought she was all that impressive in skating skills to be honest) but her carriage, posture and overall cleanliness has declined this season which hurts her overall presentation. She hasn't quite grown into her length yet which gives her an awkward/sloppy/gangly look on the ice. Her busy choreography doesn't help her either. Next season they should focus on giving her something to smooth her out and play up her maturity over the others. Alena is a good example of this. Despite the Alexandra and Anna throwing quads left and right, Alena is right on their heels with easier content b/c she is miles better than them when it comes to the aesthetic side of the sport. She's controlled and graceful while still being powerful and delivering the content and the judges--both national and international--reward her for it.

    Alina should take notes. She may not be able to compete with quads but she can keep herself in the mix by keeping the PCS gap as wide as possible for as long as possible.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    Alina needs a personal coach. Another reincarnation of Tutberidze, but only for her.
    The Dedicated one.
    Too expensive even for Russian OGM.
    Too expesive indeed, because they'd probably have to grow that Eteri clone coach in a lab... science might not be ready for that.

    Time will tell about Alina, but the doom and gloom around her right now is a bit too much. Obviously, she has growing problems and having the super juniors as training mates while she herself is struggling has to take an emotional toll, but that doesn't mean it's the end for her.

  18. #98
    Tripping on the Podium Finley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillNeal View Post
    Alina needs to find a new coach ASAP. Her jumps and skating skills have deteriorated from last season and her coaching team is having her attempt a quad instead of addressing the actual issues? Her choreography for both programs is a mess. She got passed by all three of her younger teammates at Nationals. Her team doesn't seem to have her best interests and seems more focused on the next generation, as is too common with Eteri and company. It's time for her to move on and get a head start before she is unable to challenge for GP titles even.
    Should Liza have left Mishin when her jumps deteriorated and she was unable to challenge for titles? Would changing coaches have stopped her from being passed by the other Russian girls? If she had the idea to switch to Orser would he have been able to do anything that Mishin couldn't?

    Liza needed time. I think it ended up being about the same amount of time Brian said he was going to need to 'fix' Zhenya. So Zhenya needs time. Literally, EVERYONE is saying Zhenya needs time. Give Zhenya time. Maybe it's possible Alina needs time? Alina has visibly grown a lot more than Zhenya. Zhenya is learning a new technique. Alina is learning how to skate with a new body. Here's an idea, lets give everyone time!

    Alina trains 6 days a week, however many hours a day, with three coaches. I can't imagine that at some point during this time span her coaches aren't working on her 'issues'. The video of her in a harness jumping a quad was probably a few minutes out of all the hours she spends seriously working to improve.

    Right now Alina & Eteri's best interests are served by Alina doing well at the EC and WC. Alina changing coaches right now would be a decision so completely asinine I can't even begin to fathom the rationale that went into it.

    I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you meant during the off season?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillNeal View Post
    Alina needs to find a new coach ASAP. Her jumps and skating skills have deteriorated from last season and her coaching team is having her attempt a quad instead of addressing the actual issues? Her choreography for both programs is a mess. She got passed by all three of her younger teammates at Nationals. Her team doesn't seem to have her best interests and seems more focused on the next generation, as is too common with Eteri and company. It's time for her to move on and get a head start before she is unable to challenge for GP titles even.
    should zhenya who finished even lower switch coaches again lol. also idk what you think they do all day during practice, obviously they're aware of whatever issues alina is dealing with and trying to fix them as best they can/

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finley View Post
    Should Liza have left Mishin when her jumps deteriorated and she was unable to challenge for titles? Would changing coaches have stopped her from being passed by the other Russian girls? If she had the idea to switch to Orser would he have been able to do anything that Mishin couldn't?

    Liza needed time. I think it ended up being about the same amount of time Brian said he was going to need to 'fix' Zhenya. So Zhenya needs time. Literally, EVERYONE is saying Zhenya needs time. Give Zhenya time. Maybe it's possible Alina needs time? Alina has visibly grown a lot more than Zhenya. Zhenya is learning a new technique. Alina is learning how to skate with a new body. Here's an idea, lets give everyone time!

    Alina trains 6 days a week, however many hours a day, with three coaches. I can't imagine that at some point during this time span her coaches aren't working on her 'issues'. The video of her in a harness jumping a quad was probably a few minutes out of all the hours she spends seriously working to improve.

    Right now Alina & Eteri's best interests are served by Alina doing well at the EC and WC. Alina changing coaches right now would be a decision so completely asinine I can't even begin to fathom the rationale that went into it.

    I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you meant during the off season?
    great post
    unfortunately, people are not willing to give her time at all.
    they expect her to prove she is worthy, they expect her to do well and so on for some reason.

    Meanwhile, lets see how other OGMs spend their post Olympic season:

    2018: Alina Zagitova. Wond two GP golds and a Silver at GPF the season after Olympics.
    2014: Adelina Sotnikova. WD from both her GPs due to injury.
    2010: Yuna Kim. Skipped GP entirely.
    2006: Shizuka Arakawa. Finished her competitive career.
    2002: Sarah Hughes. Skipped GP next season (and finished her competitive career after worlds)
    1998: Tara Lipinski. Finished her competitive career.
    1994: Oksana Baiul. Finished her competitive career.
    1992. Kristi Yamaguchi. Finished her competitive career.
    1988. Katarina Witt. Skipped the season.
    1984: Katarina Witt. Won Europeans and Worlds.

    So far, this season Alina is doing better than all those OGMs, except Witt after her 1st Olympics.

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