Technique question... Combo jumps

Wondering if anyone can enlighten me...

My apologies for not describing this correctly and I hope you guys understand what I'm asking.

I noticed that some skaters jump immediately after their first jump in a combo (ie. Alina) and some glide and then do the second jump.

Is there a preferred technique? Do they get positive GOE for one over the other? Is there a "correct" method?

I've been wondering this for awhile and thought I would finally ask. Sorry if this seems like a silly question.

Are you talking about the half loop combos? https://youtu.be/_XzaXMuBcSU

Are you asking about different second jumps in the combo (loop vs. toe loop), or third jump if they do a half loop, as @mau mentioned, before a salchow or flip?

Or do you mean different skaters gliding for different amounts of time before doing the same second jump?

I think the issue is the difference between combos ending in a loop and those ending in a toe loop.

In Alina Zagitova’s case, she does the 3Lz-3Lo, or triple Lutz-triple loop. In order to take off for the loop, the skater has to keep their free leg in front of their body after landing the first jump (rather than swinging it through on the landing), and quickly pull in to take off for the loop after landing the first jump. The Lutz lands on the back outside edge, which is the takeoff edge for the loop. In order to make the combination work, the skater has to do the loop almost immediately after landing the first jump in the combo, as they won’t be able to generate the force for the jump if there’s a delay.

The toe loop is a toe jump, that is, the toe pick is used when taking off for the jump. Unlike the loop, the toe loop doesn’t have strict timing requirements, so after landing the first jump in a combo, a skater can delay slightly to adjust for a bad landing, then touch the ice with the toe pick and add a toe loop for the combination.

tl;dr physics requires loop combos to be done quite quickly, while toe loop combos have more leniency

One of the positive GOE bullets is “effortless throughout (including rhythm in jump combinations).” A successful loop combo requires good rhythm, as otherwise the combination wouldn’t work. For the toe loop, there shouldn’t be excessive delay between the first jump and the toe loop; after landing the first jump (on a back outside edge, as always), the skater should quickly touch the ice with their toe pick and vault into the toe loop. All jumps in a combo should have “very good height and very good distance” in order to satisfy that positive GOE bullet as well, though some skaters will get more height on the toe loop than the first jump (or, in cases in which the toe loop is tacked on after an iffy landing, the toeloop will be noticeably poorer in quality).

A combination is ruled invalid if there is a transfer of weight from the landing foot to another part of the body (hands, free leg, etc.). All jumps land on a back outside edge, and the toe loop and loop take off from the same edge, which is why they’re the second jump in a combination. If a skater can’t control the landing of the first jump, there are GOE deductions for performing, for example, 2 three-turns between the jumps in combination, loss of rhythm, etc.

In ladies, the 3Lz-3Lo is the most difficult (and highest scoring) combo outside of anything with the 3A (which is not common enough to be anything other than an exception to the rule at this point). 2A-2T-2Lo is also a common three-jump sequence (double Axel, double toe loop, double loop). Fewer men do loop combos, though Adam Rippon is a notable exception.

^

I was referring to the time between the two jumps in a combo.

I knew I could count on the wealth of knowledge on this forum to know the answer!!

I was also wondering how long a skater has to do the second jump? When they land their first jump unsteadily, is there a time or movement limit to when they can tack on the second (or third jump). I'm pretty sure I've seen some skaters do at least 2 3-turns before squeaking out the second jump.

yyzskater said:

I was referring to the time between the two jumps in a combo.

I knew I could count on the wealth of knowledge on this forum to know the answer!!

I was also wondering how long a skater has to do the second jump? When they land their first jump unsteadily, is there a time or movement limit to when they can tack on the second (or third jump). I'm pretty sure I've seen some skaters do at least 2 3-turns before squeaking out the second jump.

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afaik you can do 3 turns in between jumps, but the free foot can't touch the ice and something to do with weight should not change? i dont really understand about that. maybe someone can explain it better!

skatenewbie said:

afaik you can do 3 turns in between jumps, but the free foot can't touch the ice and something to do with weight should not change? i dont really understand about that. maybe someone can explain it better!

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The skater's weight must remain on the landing/take off foot. The free foot is allowed to touch but no weight can be put on it (this happens on occasion but definitely isn't ideal nor is it easy to do because it's really easy to put weight on it when they're already somewhat off balance)

yyzskater said:

I was referring to the time between the two jumps in a combo.

I knew I could count on the wealth of knowledge on this forum to know the answer!!

I was also wondering how long a skater has to do the second jump? When they land their first jump unsteadily, is there a time or movement limit to when they can tack on the second (or third jump). I'm pretty sure I've seen some skaters do at least 2 3-turns before squeaking out the second jump.

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Do you want to talk about this https://youtu.be/wU5WTkLi3ms?t=71 VS this https://youtu.be/4mxCtzyHL6k?t=72 ? Some skaters take some time before adding the 2nd jump, while others tack the jump almost immediately.

Here's Kamila Valieva taking more time (likely because of the crazy lean on the lutz) https://youtu.be/UBunMYW8rlo?t=120

If you look at this skate, you can see sometimes a skater realizes they need to put a jump in combination so there's a bit of a delay before they tack on a combo. Notice how Chen has good rhythm between his jumps in the quad toe-double toe-double loop combo but realizes because he had to turn out of his first triple axel on his second triple axel he tacks on a double toe (albeit a scratchy one) at the very last second to avoid getting a deduction for no combo. https://youtu.be/SwfNeIrcaBk

If we are talking waiting to do a combo at the last possible moment Chartrand's Euler 3S has to be the most extreme example, although that is simply how she does it.

Spirals for Miles said:

Here's Kamila Valieva taking more time (likely because of the crazy lean on the lutz) https://youtu.be/UBunMYW8rlo?t=120

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That kind of delay must bring less GOE i guess.

skatenewbie said:

afaik you can do 3 turns in between jumps, but the free foot can't touch the ice and something to do with weight should not change? i dont really understand about that. maybe someone can explain it better!

Click to expand...

As long as there isn’t a weight transfer, a skater can execute a valid combo even if there’s a 3-turn between the jumps. It is a mandatory negative GOE penalty, however (-2 to -3, offset by any positive features, in the current system — Kazuki Tomono had this exact error in his free skate at WC18 and received largely -2 GOEs under the +3/-3 scale).

The ISU defines a jump combination as a series of jumps in which the jump(s) following the first take off from the landing edge. The skater is allowed one full revolution and the free foot may touch the ice so long as weight is not transferred from the landing foot. The technical handbook. Two 3-turns between jumps is a negative GOE criterion. If the free foot touches down and/or more than a single full revolution in between jumps, the jumping pass will be tagged as [first jump]+COMBO or +SEQ.

yyzskater said:

I was also wondering how long a skater has to do the second jump? When they land their first jump unsteadily, is there a time or movement limit to when they can tack on the second (or third jump). I'm pretty sure I've seen some skaters do at least 2 3-turns before squeaking out the second jump.

Click to expand...

There are no rules against delaying a jump in a combination, but significant delay is a negative GOE bullet, while maintaining rhythm is a positive GOE bullet. Of course, if there’s a loss of rhythm in a combination, it’s generally due to some sort of error on the preceding jump, so the negative GOE for loss of rhythm is more likely than not accompanied by other negative features. The ISU’s rules invalidate combos only if (1) there’s a full revolution on ice in between jumps or (2) there’s a transfer of weight from the landing foot to another part of the body (free foot, hands, etc.). (Since a combination is defined as a series of jumps in which the landing foot is the takeoff foot for the next jump, a transfer of weight automatically invalidates any jumps performed afterward as part of a combination.) The time between jumps in a combination is not calculated, as it’s accounted for in GOE.

If you’re asking what’s physically possible, then you’d need to ask someone whose skating doesn’t consist of “clinging to the boards for dear life.” For loop combos, there’s no time for delay at all, whereas for the toe loop... I’ve heard stories of skaters pushing off the boards and doing toe loops from a dead stop to practice being able to tack them on to even the most atrocious of landings in case a combo needs to be salvaged.

A good toe loop combination especially should have a good run of the blade on the landing of the first jump before the second jump -- the first landing should cover ice on a big curve before picking in for the second takeoff.

Sometimes if there is not much speed on the landing of the first jump, the landing edge might curl around on a small circle or not go much of anywhere at all, and then the skater will pick for the toe loop very close to where the first jump came down. That would be lower quality and likely earn lower GOE.

This is less a difference in the amount of time between the two jumps as in the amount of physical distance. Less distance might still take just as much or more time because the blade is traveling more slowly.

Metis said:

There are no rules against delaying a jump in a combination, but significant delay is a negative GOE bullet, while maintaining rhythm is a positive GOE bullet. Of course, if there’s a loss of rhythm in a combination, it’s generally due to some sort of error on the preceding jump, so the negative GOE for loss of rhythm is more likely than not accompanied by other negative features. The ISU’s rules invalidate combos only if (1) there’s a full revolution on ice in between jumps or (2) there’s a transfer of weight from the landing foot to another part of the body (free foot, hands, etc.). (Since a combination is defined as a series of jumps in which the landing foot is the takeoff foot for the next jump, a transfer of weight automatically invalidates any jumps performed afterward as part of a combination.) The time between jumps in a combination is not calculated, as it’s accounted for in GOE.

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a great example of keeping rhythm is Sasha Trusova-

https://youtu.be/0hMFx9iJLvY?t=115

she has literally zero hesitation between jumps, its up-down-up.

macy said:

a great example of keeping rhythm is Sasha Trusova-

https://youtu.be/0hMFx9iJLvY?t=115

she has literally zero hesitation between jumps, its up-down-up.

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She’s definitely a good choice for -3Lo combos, similar to Zagitova. (Who also has some of the most gorgeous Rippons, in my opinion.) Unfortunately, there aren’t as many options in men’s singles, although Gumennik did a 3A-3Lo in the JGP. The loop was a forward takeoff, though, so definitely not an ideal combo.

For toe loop combos, one easy comparison is Hanyu. His combos in his WC17 FS are outstanding:
https://youtu.be/yZxDCfgVfTc

His 4T-3T in his SP at ACI this season is what happens when the landing of the first jump isn’t solid and there’s noticeable distance between the two jumps (since he delays the 3T):
https://youtu.be/E8Zc_ukuteY

You can see his blade travel in a curve after the 4T, and the 3T doesn’t follow the same trajectory as the 4T, which is a sign of a less than ideal combo.

For loop issues, Bradie Tennell had a suboptimal landing on her 3Lz and popped a planned 3Lo at Skate America just a few weeks ago, which is a good example of Why Loop Combos Are Hard:
https://youtu.be/2QDxSd4Zy9Q

gkelly, I actually deleted an extra paragraph on what a running edge is and its importance for solid combos, so thanks for filling in that knowledge with more eloquence and depth of understanding than I ever could. [emoji3]

For illustration, here is a 3Lz+3Lo and a 3Lz+3T in the same program, you can see the difference in rhythm
+3Lo https://youtu.be/wFVDnlvLZig?t=53
+3T https://youtu.be/wFVDnlvLZig?t=2m30s

Here is 3F+3T and 3F+3Lo in the same program
+3T https://youtu.be/DNQ9HWCeoYo?t=74
+3Lo https://youtu.be/DNQ9HWCeoYo?t=2m58s

largeman said:

For illustration, here is a 3Lz+3Lo and a 3Lz+3T in the same program, you can see the difference in rhythm
+3Lo https://youtu.be/wFVDnlvLZig?t=53
+3T https://youtu.be/wFVDnlvLZig?t=2m30s

Here is 3F+3T and 3F+3Lo in the same program
+3T https://youtu.be/DNQ9HWCeoYo?t=74
+3Lo https://youtu.be/DNQ9HWCeoYo?t=2m58s

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Great combos.

yume said:

Do you want to talk about this https://youtu.be/wU5WTkLi3ms?t=71 VS this https://youtu.be/4mxCtzyHL6k?t=72 ? Some skaters take some time before adding the 2nd jump, while others tack the jump almost immediately.

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Yes. This is what I meant. Kaetlyn gets into her second jump much quicker than Evgenia. As a spectator, both look good to me. But which one is preferable? Taking any possible skater bias aside, which would get a higher GOE?

I don't know which one should get more GOE, but i prefer Kaetlyn's combo, so combos with almost no delay.