Music Rightsholders - do skaters have to get permission?

Miller · Nov 1, 2018

CaroLiza_fan said:
Strictly speaking, this is off topic. But I feel it is related.

Over the past year, we have heard a lot of talk about how the new copyright laws that the EU was trying to bring in would affect people making memes (I hate that word!) and uploading videos of themselves performing covers of songs. And the whole time I have been wondering how it would affect videos of figure skating routines.

The law got passed in September.

I am starting to wonder if we are already seeing the effects.

Like, we are seeing videos on the ISU's own Junior GP channel getting blocked. That never happened before this season, presumably because the ISU have one of these wide-ranging licenses. Could it be that these new copyright laws in Europe are over-riding the existing licence?

I can only see these copyright claims happening more often. And if they do, it is going to destroy the sport.

It is going to get to the stage where videos of performances are not going to be able to be uploaded to the internet. So, there is going to be less exposure for the sport, especially in countries that do not show it on the TV.

But, it could also lead to venues not wanting to hold competitions for fear of litigation. And if that happened, then the sport would really be in trouble!

CaroLiza_fan

Thankyou for posting this. Was completely unaware of it.

Can't comment on JGP videos, or venues not wanting to hold competitions.

However to cover this, what I'd like to see is the ISU expand its Skating ISU Youtube channel so that you've got videos (with any appropriate fees paid) of all figure skating competitions under their control available (and with an appropriate waiting time in countries where there are TV rights holders - don't know how this works for things that seem to be in perpetuity e.g. Eurosport shows highlights of world championships as warm ups for the coming season - anyone explain how this works?).

But yes, an ISU JGP channel (already exists), CS Events, GPs etc. Wouldn't have thought it beyond the wit and wisdom of man to even get videos of GPs up early in those countries where there are no TV rights. For example there's the Eurovision Sports TV channel which they livestream their events through to presumably those countries without TV rights. I would have thought they could be uploaded straightaway, Geoblocked accordingly, and then the latter drops off as rights expire, notwithstanding the perpetuity thing.

By doing this you would then have a library in place for future generations and all in one place, and hopefully all copyright issues are sorted, or least the ISU can tackle them as a whole.

4everchan · Nov 1, 2018

Sam L said:
I used to work in entertainment industry and I thought that it's the venues that pay royalties for the rights to play copyright music. In figure skating, that would be the ice rinks holding the competitions, not the skaters. Yes?

yes, and as most of the big venue also offer other live performances, they must already have a yearly license which means, hosting figure skating costs nothing...

for small venues who would perhaps ONLY present one event a year, they would pay for just that one event and it would be a low percentage of ticket sales..

People are making way too much out of this exceptional case with Kevin... it's not like figure skating will becoming figure miming on ice because of copyrights.

CaroLiza_fan · Nov 1, 2018

Miller said:
Thankyou for posting this. Was completely unaware of it.

Can't comment on JGP videos, or venues not wanting to hold competitions.

However, what I'd like to see is the ISU expand its Skating ISU Youtube channel so that you've got videos (with any appropriate fees paid) of all figure skating competitions under their control available (and with an appropriate waiting time in countries where there are TV rights holders - don't know how this works for things that seem to be in perpetuity e.g. Eurosport shows highlights of world championships as warm ups for the coming season - anyone explain how this works?).

But yes, an ISU JGP channel (already exists), CS Events, GPs etc. Wouldn't have thought it beyond the wit and wisdom of man to even get videos of GPs up early in those countries where there are no TV rights. For example there's the Eurovision Sports TV channel which they livestream their events through to presumably those countries without TV rights. I would have thought they could be uploaded straightaway, Geoblocked accordingly, and then the latter drops off as rights expire, notwithstanding the perpetuity thing.

By doing this you would then have a library in place for future generations and all in one place, and hopefully all copyright issues are sorted, or least the ISU can tackle them as a whole.

Completely agree. Although, I would like to see the channels on YouTube, as it is gets a wider reach (and is generally a nicer website to use) than Eurovision Sports.

I don't know if you realised, but the ISU channel on Eurovision Sports DOES archive the livestreams of the events they show (the Senior GP's, Europeans, Four Continents, Junior Worlds, Senior Worlds, WTT). They even split them up so that each group has it's own video.

And, as we know from past seasons, the Eurovision Sports website is able to geo-block specific countries.

However, although they did archive the Galas in past seasons, there is no sign of this year's Skate America or Skate Canada Galas on there. :disapp:

I don't really use Eurovision Sports for archives of the figure skating, but I do use it for biathlon. Because you not only get more comprehensive coverage than what was shown on Eurosport (staying for the entirity of the race, no adverts), but you actually get the Eurosport commentators! Although, it does get a little bit confusing when Eurosport are showing recorded pictures before the race, and Patrick and Mike are commentating on them rather than commentating on the LIVE pictures that are on the stream! :laugh:

I just wish that the FIS used their Eurovision Sports channels the same way as the ISU and IBU do.

Yes, official video channels run by the governing bodies which have all the necessary rights to broadcast and then archive the coverage of all their own competitions is what is needed for all these sports. Coverage that can compliment and fill in the gaps in the TV coverage and, in the case of figure skating, will not fall foul of music copyrights.

But, this is getting quite a bit off topic.

CaroLiza_fan

Miller · Nov 1, 2018

CaroLiza_fan said:
Completely agree. Although, I would like to see the channels on YouTube, as it is gets a wider reach (and is generally a nicer website to use) than Eurovision Sports.

I don't know if you realised, but the ISU channel on Eurovision Sports DOES archive the livestreams of the events they show (the Senior GP's, Europeans, Four Continents, Junior Worlds, Senior Worlds, WTT). They even split them up so that each group has it's own video.

And, as we know from past seasons, the Eurovision Sports website is able to geo-block specific countries.

Yes, official video channels run by the governing bodies which have all the necessary rights to broadcast and then archive the coverage of all their own competitions is what is needed for all these sports. Coverage that can compliment and fill in the gaps in the TV coverage and, in the case of figure skating, will not fall foul of music copyrights.

But, this is getting quite a bit off topic.

CaroLiza_fan

Yes, I did realize (but only after I'd posted my post!). However does anyone else realize this? It should be great for ROW countries, but really the Skating ISU channel on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/user/SkatingISU is the way to go, it's even got, wait for it, 1 minute highlights of SA and SC! However it's all there ready and waiting.

Anyway back to the topic in hand.

TryMeLater · Nov 1, 2018

schizoanalyst said:
Copyright law differs from country to country but, broadly speaking, I have little doubt a copyright holder could make a claim against the skater. The problem isn't so much television airing - most major networks have massive license repositories holding hundreds of thousands of songs that allow them to air this music. You would have trouble finding a piece that wasn't covered by most of these repositories. There is some issues involving differ types of licensing for TV like synching vs recording that are tricky- but just airing a track played in an arena to a performance would be covered by most networks licensing.

Under US law what a skater is doing, this easily constitute what's called a "public performance" (other countries have similar laws - but I don't know what terms they use) - basically any use of the music in a public space that's not just for friends or family and so would require a license. Moreover, theoretically, the rinks themselves could be held liable because they are hosting the performance (unless they hold the rights, which some rinks do). The events where a skater would be using the music are not "non-profit" so no immunity there - Reynolds is competing at a event that sells tickets, gets money from TV broadcasting, and is himself competing for prize money on the grand prix circuit, for example. Almost no one would be sympathetic to a "fair use" exemption since these routines aren't educational and done in a commercial context and you could try to make a "commentary" argument, but most courts would be unsympathetic since if allowed it basically makes any extensive use of a piece of music commentary.

So, yeah, Reynolds certainly broke most nations copyright law by not getting a license. Basically, if it's not in public domain a skater should get permission from the license holder. I'm actually surprised the ISU/federations didn't advise skaters of this with the lyric change rules especially.

I would think that the mere added performance aspect of the sport (choreography, sports elements and such) will make it fall under "fair use".
Am I wrong?

Mathman · Nov 1, 2018

If a skater chooses, say, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (long in the public domain), I suppose they still have to consider the copyright question for the particular recording that they use, right?

Last year Starr Andrews skated to her own cover of a Whitney Houston song. Is that OK? (I assume that Starr did not pay any royalties to Willow Smith for skating to Whip My Hair at age 9.)

TallyT · Nov 1, 2018

schizoanalyst said:
So, yeah, Reynolds certainly broke most nations copyright law by not getting a license. Basically, if it's not in public domain a skater should get permission from the license holder. I'm actually surprised the ISU/federations didn't advise skaters of this with the lyric change rules especially.

To be fair, maybe he and his team didn't realise getting it would prove so difficult/protracted and that Hisaichi would in the end refuse? I was probably not the only Yuzuru fan rather surprised when Reynolds' choice was announced in the first place, we know the difficulty Yuzuru had getting permission, and he's probably in a different position with even the more reluctant Japanese composers (I'm not saying they've all agree anyway, but still...)

But if you don't follow him as closely, you might be excused for not knowing that it had been difficult for him, and simply thinking "well, they've now let one skater use and combine them...?"

katymay · Nov 1, 2018

Mathman said:
If a skater chooses, say, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (long in the public domain), I suppose they still have to consider the copyright question for the particular recording that they use, right?

Last year Starr Andrews skated to her own cover of a Whitney Houston song. Is that OK? (I assume that Starr did not pay any royalties to Willow Smith for skating to Whip My Hair at age 9.)

The problem is when it is broadcast. A ten year old can get away with skating to most anything, there isn't a broadcast or commercial performance. Most classical recordings are covered by ASCAP or BMI.

lanceupper1114 · Nov 1, 2018

Are skaters allowed to skate in complete silence? Or is music an absolute requirement?

I want Ted Barton to say something like, "Alexandra Trusova will be skating her short program to, "a tree falls in the forest, but no one is there to hear it". Choreographed by Daniil Gleikhengauz, music by nobody."

Metis · Nov 1, 2018

Mathman said:
If a skater chooses, say, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (long in the public domain), I suppose they still have to consider the copyright question for the particular recording that they use, right?

Last year Starr Andrews skated to her own cover of a Whitney Houston song. Is that OK? (I assume that Starr did not pay any royalties to Willow Smith for skating to Whip My Hair at age 9.)

The issue isn’t the work being in the public domain, as the actual legal issue isn’t copyright status but licensing permission. In any event, for the Beethoven example, the issue isn’t the music itself — it’s the artist(s) of whatever recording being used that would be able to raise an issue.

Again, music licenses are generally sold in huge packages to various venues (such as sports centers and arenas), so the skaters, while technically responsible for handling copyright issues on their own, are largely covered due to the licensing rights purchased by various venues. Royalties may not even be an issue — licensing agreements are often a flat fee (a rink might pay 10,000 USD to license a song package, meaning that for as long as the license agreement lasts, the rink can play the songs covered as much as they want). Do you remember that we heard the same set of songs during the warmups and K&C+highlight package at every GP, to the point the “start” and “end” of the playlist could be determined? Licensing! Those rinks were definitely not paying royalties.

andromache · Nov 1, 2018

I recall discussion about this a few years ago and as far as I remember, the conclusion was that the federations work it out with whoever owns the rights to the music on behalf of the skaters.

Very sad and disappointed for Kevin Reynolds.

TallyT · Nov 1, 2018

lanceupper1114 said:
Are skaters allowed to skate in complete silence? Or is music an absolute requirement?

I want Ted Barton to say something like, "Alexandra Trusova will be skating her short program to, "a tree falls in the forest, but no one is there to hear it". Choreographed by Daniil Gleikhengauz, music by nobody."

Don't say that, one of these days some trollish skater will annouce their skate to John Cage's 4'33". I mean, there's even a headbanger version for the young fans.

Mind you, they will have to work very carefully on the music cut...

Ducky · Nov 1, 2018

The problem here is that Reynolds technically violated the composer's moral rights, which protects the integrity of piece of work and can restrict alterations that one may make to it. So they could have cleared the rights for him to perform to a specific piece, but in splicing two pieces together which that composer doesn't allow others to do, they violated the copyright. Composers are generally given more heft with being able to say that they don't want someone as they are the sole creators of their work versus a pop star who may have a team writing their songs (that a whole lode of other reasons... music licensing is complicated).

- - - Updated - - -

TallyT said:
Don't say that, one of these days some trollish skater will annouce their skate to John Cage's 4'33". I mean, there's even a headbanger version for the young fans.

Mind you, they will have to work very carefully on the music cut...

My very best student piano solo ever was to John Cage's 4'33"...

Metis · Nov 1, 2018

TallyT said:
Don't say that, one of these days some trollish skater will annouce their skate to John Cage's 4'33". I mean, there's even a headbanger version for the young fans.

Mind you, they will have to work very carefully on the music cut...

[emoji23][emoji24][emoji23]

In that timeline, the mods would have to shut down uber-threads that escalate into war over the subject of whether the transitions enhance or detract from the music.

Still better than Candyman, though.

PinkElephants · Nov 1, 2018

lanceupper1114 said:
Are skaters allowed to skate in complete silence? Or is music an absolute requirement?

I want Ted Barton to say something like, "Alexandra Trusova will be skating her short program to, "a tree falls in the forest, but no one is there to hear it". Choreographed by Daniil Gleikhengauz, music by nobody."

Funny you mention that since up until mid-2018 there was technically no requirement for skaters to use music, although I'm not aware of anyone having taken advantage of the loophole

It was one of the things added to the rulebook after this year's ISU congress. "Skaters must skate to music"

(no rule against skating to John Cage, though...)

Mathman · Nov 1, 2018

TallyT said:
Don't say that, one of these days some trollish skater will annouce their skate to John Cage's 4'33". I mean, there's even a headbanger version for the young fans.

Mind you, they will have to work very carefully on the music cut...

It used to be perfect when the men's long program was four and a half minutes.

TallyT · Nov 1, 2018

Mathman said:
It used to be perfect when the men's long program was four and a half minutes.

Exactly, it will be such a agonising calculation of just which bars to cut to enhance the whole... thing.

{oh hell, now I want someone to do it!!!!!}

noskates · Nov 2, 2018

I worked for a winery for years that hosted concerts in the summer. We were told that the performers had to have the rights to the songs they were covering or the winery had to get the permissions. There was a move to enforce this on a larger scale but it kind of fizzled out. I do think the skaters have to have the rights - which tells you possibly why we hear Carmen and some of the other workhorses so many, many times during the seasons. It's an interesting dilemma though.

mrrice · Nov 2, 2018

Mathman said:
If a skater chooses, say, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (long in the public domain), I suppose they still have to consider the copyright question for the particular recording that they use, right?

Last year Starr Andrews skated to her own cover of a Whitney Houston song. Is that OK? (I assume that Starr did not pay any royalties to Willow Smith for skating to Whip My Hair at age 9.)

With Dance, as long as the production was not going to receive money ( Profit ), we had no problem with Copyrights. We used to have our Dance Concert professionally recorded and we gave copies away to the dancers and sponsors. One year, we decided to sell copies to people in the audience. We had a table set up for people to place orders. We got a warning from Gloria Estefan's producers....Our show was called "Get On Your Feet" and we used that song for our opening number. I guess it was fine when we were giving away the videos but, once we charged money.....It was a problem.

Rissa · Nov 2, 2018

TallyT said:
To be fair, maybe he and his team didn't realise getting it would prove so difficult/protracted and that Hisaichi would in the end refuse? I was probably not the only Yuzuru fan rather surprised when Reynolds' choice was announced in the first place, we know the difficulty Yuzuru had getting permission, and he's probably in a different position with even the more reluctant Japanese composers (I'm not saying they've all agree anyway, but still...)

But if you don't follow him as closely, you might be excused for not knowing that it had been difficult for him, and simply thinking "well, they've now let one skater use and combine them...?"

Didn't Tursynbaeva skate to Princess Mononoke sountrack which is by Hisaishi too the same season Hanyu skated to his Hisaishi pieces? Anyone knows the hoops she had to jump through? Orser's team killed two birds with one stone?

Music Rightsholders - do skaters have to get permission?

Miller

4everchan

CaroLiza_fan

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Mathman

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Metis

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