What skaters have left the biggest legacy?

Skater Boy said:

Everyone knew this thread would be divisive or heated lol I mean I find it hard that Shen and Zhao are included compared to Gordeeva and Grinkov especially inlight in winning their OGM they didn't even win the long program - but they are a great team but then so were G and G and T and M who actually eclipsed S and Z 0 original the record between the two favored S and Z and then miraculously T and M took over. I do respect S and Z leadingthe Chinese though but then why are we saying one team and one nation gets some crediblity should we look at Canada, USA, Russia for their leading teamstoo (et al? P/C do have a great smoothiness but so far have show a huge lack of diversity or limited scope in the freedance and though Gabby has improved her quality of skatiing has been somewhat suspect. Btu I guess it is all opinion I would include in ice danceTorvill and Dean, Klimova and Ponomarenko, Bourne and Kraatz, The Duchesnay's, and if you include PC then Krylova and Oksianikov, Usova and Zhulin, Gritschuk and Platov, Bestmianova and Bukin, Virtue and moir, Davis and White, M and M,and probably a few historic Russian teams. Which means the term legendary gets watered down.

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There are definitely some definitional issues with the thread. I just think we should let the current skaters do their thing and judge their legacies later. For example when ranking ex-presidents historians usually wait until a decade or so after they're out of office.

Luckily we're discussing legacies and not Olympic golds or number of competitions won. I think given that it is quite easy to distinguish S/Z from T/M. Sorry T/M fans but much like the current T/M this was a charisma-less team with great skating skills. S/Z were a team who captured and moved people. Folks are still looking back at their programs and trying to capture that magic. Not so much for T/M.

I think you're going too far down the slippery slope. Even if we are to include all of the ice dance teams you mentioned (and I wouldn't) that's still just a handful of teams over the years. Now if we wanted to make a Mount Rushmore of teams (pick the four most iconic) that would be a more difficult exercise. (My list would be M/M, T/D, K/P, and V/M--- I really don't care that G/P won two gold medals :dev2.

In the US I would say it's Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano and Michelle Kwan. They are synonymous with figure skating.

I admit when I started this, I was trying to get away from the "greatest skater of today" kind of fandom and have a longer vision. As anyone who has read my posts knows, I love, love, love V and M and they brought me back into loving figure skating (so for me they sure have a personal legacy) but I still think it is a little early to weigh up their legacy though given their international appeal I suspect it is huge. (Also by the standards of programs you remember, Umbrellas, Mahler, Carmen and Moulin Rouge all spring to mind) In some ways it might be possible to say Bourne and Kratz had a greater legacy though in terms of bringing a gold to North America and starting a period of North American interest in dance that for some reason I think both Blumberg and Seibert and WIlson and McCAll failed to do. I feel much the same way about Hanu as I do about VandM. I think he will have a huge legacy but it is hard to tell. Yuna Kim definitely has a legacy in Korea and beyond and I would say Mao also had an international and national legacythough as an outsider I would say Midori Ito may have a greater one, I don't know); nor do I know where Yuka Sato fits in the legacy of Japanese skaters. She is one of the ones I was thinking of who wasn't around for all that long but may have had a great legacy.
In Canada it would be hard to dispute the legacy of Donald Jackson - he was still doing an Axel age 76 and performed in stars on ice with Kurt Browning in 2016 I would say he had an international legacy as well given he was the first to do a triple lutz internationally. Like Barbara Ann Scott, but unlike lets say Vern Taylor and Karen Magnusson, they seem to have had an enduring legacy.
Others I find hard to place. Gary Beacom, for instance. I don't think I have ever seen anyone try to emulate what he did, but he was certainly unique and memorable.

In terms of coaches, what price Tatiana Tarasova?

GGFan said:

There are definitely some definitional issues with the thread. I just think we should let the current skaters do their thing and judge their legacies later. For example when ranking ex-presidents historians usually wait until a decade or so after they're out of office.

Luckily we're discussing legacies and not Olympic golds or number of competitions won. I think given that it is quite easy to distinguish S/Z from T/M. Sorry T/M fans but much like the current T/M this was a charisma-less team with great skating skills. S/Z were a team who captured and moved people. Folks are still looking back at their programs and trying to capture that magic. Not so much for T/M.

I think you're going too far down the slippery slope. Even if we are to include all of the ice dance teams you mentioned (and I wouldn't) that's still just a handful of teams over the years. Now if we wanted to make a Mount Rushmore of teams (pick the four most iconic) that would be a more difficult exercise. (My list would be M/M, T/D, K/P, and V/M--- I really don't care that G/P won two gold medals :dev2.

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Thank you. That was exactly what I was trying to do was get to longer term legacies (By the way I completely agree about definitional issues, but I couldn't think of a better way of putting it.

rugbyfan said:

In terms of coaches, what price Tatiana Tarasova?

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In terms of coaches we definitely need to add to the list: Carlo and Christa Fassi (perfect politicking/tech duo), Frank Carroll (should we include Maribel since she coached Frank?), John Nicks, and Tamara Moskvina come to mind.

Coming back to your point TAT definitely must be included! She's a treasure whether you love or hate her. No one can question her passion for the sport. I'll mention two of my favorite parts of her legacy: 1) K/P's glorious 1992 FD to Bach. That was some of her best work. 2) Her coaching Yagudin post-Mishin. I think they made a wonderful pair. I love me some Winter!

Legacy: Alexei Yagudin channels Sonja Henie.

Yagudin, 2002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A_dtezybzM&t=2m21s

Henie, 1945: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjnfkEOpsE&t=2m20s

(If you go back to the beginning of the clip you can see Henie do a "wrong direction Lutz.")

Triple loop said:

In defense of Elaine (Zayak), she was the one who initially revolutionalized women's figure skating with those triple jumps. This was before Ito, Harding, etc.

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Hooray for Elaine Z.

But she was not the only skater to ratchet up the technical ante. Carol Heiss dominated the sport, winning five world championships and two Olympic medals, by out-jumping everyone that came before. She was the first lady to do a double Axel. Plus, she could do a sequence of (single) Axels alternating clockwise and counter clockwise revolutions.

Cecilia Colledge was an athletic jumper and spinner. She landed the first double jump by a woman, a double Salchow in 1936. Wikipedia says

(Colledge is also) credited as being the inventor of the camel spin along with its catchfoot variation and the layback spin. Although not named after her, she was one of the first skaters who transitioned from a layback spin to a one hand Biellmann spin in her free programs.

She also invented the one-foot axel jump, which is also known as the Colledge.

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The only thing that prevented Colledge from winning both the 1940 and the 1944 Olympics was that the games were cancelled because of World War II.

I also have the impression that five-time world champ Herma Szabo was a prodigy on the athletic side of the sport, but I don't know any details of her skating style.

I think it's too easy to get hung up on how many Olympic medals a skater /skaters have won, and then automatically bestow legacy on their shoulders. Following strict rules and playing to a judging standard merely may bring you material success, but it doesn't guarantee you'll be remembered.

And so, with this in mind, I'll venture two male skaters of the Soviet era that, at least, I remember with fondness for what they created on ice, in Igor Bobrin, for his alternate take on creativity, and Vladimir Kotin, for his artistry.

I don't know the answer to that... But I was hanging out with my millennial cousins and I told them that I love ice stating and their answers were "all I know about skating is Michelle Kwan" for a generation of Americans she is synonymous with ice skating. Legacy...

skaterboy said:

I find it hard that Shen and Zhao are included compared to Gordeeva and Grinkov especially in light in winning their OGM they didn't even win the long program ...

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Luckily we're discussing legacies and not Olympic golds or number of competitions won. ...

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Shen and Zhao are the perfect example to reflect on what exactly we mean by a legacy. "Legacy" just means "what you left behind to remember you by." In Shen and Zhao's case, it isn't their performance at the 2010 Olympics that we remember. It is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYuRHZMNCeE

Carlo Fassi

Legacy≠legend/legendary.

The principal, active, relevant definitions given by the Oxford English Dictionary (considered the authoritative dictionary of English):

Legacy:
The action or an act of bequeathing
A sum of money, or a specified article, given to another by will
A tangible or intangible thing handed down by a predecessor; a long-lasting effect of an event or process
Designating something left over from a previous era but still in active existence

Legend:
A person of sufficient distinction or achievement to have become widely renowned or talked about, esp. with respect, reverence, or awe
A person who is extremely famous, respected, or significant within a particular field or activity

The OP, and many of the earlier responses, were talking about legacies: who has contributed the most to the sport, or left the greatest or the most important inheritance for future skaters to work with? That's a different question from asking who the most accomplished skater, or the most memorable or famous or beloved skater, was or is. You don't have to be famous, or even remembered, to leave a legacy. And you may be a legend without leaving much of a legacy at all (unless you count memorable performances as a legacy--but that's more of a legacy for audiences than it is for the development of the sport).

This thread has a serious flaw that I must address. It is nearing 100 posts, and yet no one has mentioned Irina Rodnina.

Now, I love the Protopopov's. I think they represent the pinnacle of one type of pairs skating. But Irina Rodnina and Alexei Ulanov (and later with Alexander Zaitsev) followed them with a completely different style - strong, fast, and athletic. They were a brand new breed of pair skaters.

And, by the way, if you're looking for a competitive legacy... with two different partners and a baby thrown in for good measure...

3 Olympic Titles
10 World Titles
11 European Titles

Beginning with her first European Title in 1969 until her retirement following the Lake Placid Olympic Games in 1980, she NEVER lost a competition. EVER.

Mathman said:

I think there are two reasons why Kristi Yamaguchi deserves mention here. The first is her pro career. She competed in 7 Landovers (World Pro Championships), winning 4 golds and 3 silvers, and this was back in the days when professional skating ruled and rocked. She was the guts and glue of the Stars on Ice crew for a decade, never failing to delight the packed house. The previous model for "pro skating" was shows like Ice Capades, which were more a Las Vegas Review on ice.

The second reason was mentioned briefly up-thread. Asian-Americans have for decades been the silent and forgotten minority in the United States. For many youngsters of the right age, Kristi was the first sports hero that they could really relate to. Even today if you search the Internet you will come across literally dozens of testimonials like this one from the New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/magazine/what-i-learned-from-kristi-yamaguchi.html

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Kristi has her own Hallmark Christmas ornament! Like enough said



although my mom still calls it Michelle Kwan

NAOTMAA said:

Kristi has her own Hallmark Christmas ornament! Like enough said


although my mom still calls it Michelle Kwan

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I have one on my Christmas tree right now! I attached a little motorized hook that makes it spin around.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uyYAAOSwezVWvMS3/s-l300.jpg

I also have a complete set of musical figure skating snowglobes (Kristi, Michelle, Tara and Peggy Fleming).

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dboAAOSwSKtaa1TJ/s-l640.jpg

Mathman said:

Shen and Zhao are the perfect example to reflect on what exactly we mean by a legacy. "Legacy" just means "what you left behind to remember you by." In Shen and Zhao's case, it isn't their performance at the 2010 Olympics that we remember. It is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYuRHZMNCeE

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I think their legacy is the continued high level of Chinese pairs skating.

Yes

Mathman said:

Shen and Zhao are the perfect example to reflect on what exactly we mean by a legacy. "Legacy" just means "what you left behind to remember you by." In Shen and Zhao's case, it isn't their performance at the 2010 Olympics that we remember. It is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYuRHZMNCeE

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I totally agree. Thank you.

Well, it's not necessarily positive but, Tonya Harding did have a feature length movie made about her life. She'll have that for the rest of her life. Plus, her 3A did land her in the History Books.

mrrice said:

Well, it's not necessarily positive but, Tonya Harding did have a feature length movie made about her life. She'll have that for the rest of her life. Plus, her 3A did land her in the History Books.

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Tonya is a good example of the difference between legacy and legendary, kind of like the difference between fame and infamy. Tonya, to me, is a legend/infamous. She has had a life that will not likely be forgotten any time soon, but not for the best of reasons. Someone like Michelle Kwan has left a legacy- she found fame in a way that is to be admired. :agree:

satine said:

Tonya is a good example of the difference between legacy and legendary, kind of like the difference between fame and infamy. Tonya, to me, is a legend/infamous. She has had a life that will not likely be forgotten any time soon, but not for the best of reasons. Someone like Michelle Kwan has left a legacy- she found fame in a way that is to be admired. :agree:

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idk, I think you could also call it a legacy. She was the reason the sport exploded in 1994 in the US. People could not get enough of it. Skaters mentioned in this thread as having legacies: Boitano, Hamilton, Browning, Yamaguchi, Kwan, etc all benefited from it. Her legacy isn't a positive one, but it put figure skating in the public consciousness in a way it hadn't been in decades... and sadly I think Tonya will be well remembered by generations not yet known while the others may fade.