How often do skaters skate two clean programs? | Golden Skate

How often do skaters skate two clean programs?

khtmyzr

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Apologies if this has been asked before.
I’ve started following the sport for almost a year now and it just dawned on me that it is quite rare for a skater to be squeaky clean (no negative GOE) for both SP and FS in one competition? (or at least in the Men’s discipline which I follow most closely)

I was wondering whether my impression was true so with the assumption that a skater’s PB ought be the latest one they’ve went clean across both programs, I went to look at the PB list and the protocol of the respective competition where they achieved that score. I didn’t go through the whole list but among the higher ones, the most recent was Boyang at World 2017. But since a lot of the men’s PBs are not without negative GOE, I couldn’t figure out when their last clean competition was by the PB list.

So I guess my questions are 1) Is it almost as rare as a ‘once in a skating career’ experience or is it more common? 2) Does it happen more frequently in other disciplines?

Thank you for your answers in advance!
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
My ranking of the ability to do two clean programs by disciplines:

1) Dance: Less risks so less mistakes i guess. It's rare to see obvious mistakes. There can be negative GOEs in judges scores but overall dance judges scores are cleaner than in other disciplines.
2) Ladies: I see more two clean programs in a competition among top ladies. Last season, Zagitova, Medvedeva, Miyahara, Higuchi Sakamoto, Mihara, Tsurskaya, Sotskova, for example, did clean competitions
3) Pairs: IMO, more risky than ladies. I only remember Savchenko/Massot, Sui/Han, Tarasova/Morozov doing clean competitions.
4) Men: The technical difficulty is insane, so really difficult to see two clean skates. I don't think that someone among top men did a clean competition last season
 

khtmyzr

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Boyang at 4CCs, Shoma at Lombardia Trophy, Nathan at Worlds and US Nats? This season, Nathan did 2 clean skates at SA.

I think yume was referring to clean as in how I described it in my question above - squeaky clean, no negative GOE.
 

xeyra

Constant state
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
I think yume was referring to clean as in how I described it in my question above - squeaky clean, no negative GOE.

I think if the criteria is really squeaky clean, then it's harder to find a good number of men who have had many clean competitions across the seasons they've competed, unless you look into men with no quads (and even then I don't know exactly how often they can go without mistakes). If we lower our standards to clean competitions being only a couple of negative points from scratchy landings or turnouts and no step outs or falls, then it's possible to find a bigger list.
 

yume

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Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Yes i was referring to clean as clean judges' scores. But even if we talk about clean as a skate with no obvious mistakes, Shoma, Nathan and Boyang were not totally cleans. IIRC, Shoma and Nathan did step-outs in their free skates and Boyang did a mistake on his 3lz in free skate at 4CC.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
My ranking of the ability to do two clean programs by disciplines:

1) Dance: Less risks so less mistakes i guess. It's rare to see obvious mistakes. There can be negative GOEs in judges scores but overall dance judges scores are cleaner than in other disciplines.
2) Ladies: I see more two clean programs in a competition among top ladies. Last season, Zagitova, Medvedeva, Miyahara, Higuchi Sakamoto, Mihara, Tsurskaya, Sotskova, for example, did clean competitions
3) Pairs: IMO, more risky than ladies. I only remember Savchenko/Massot, Sui/Han, Tarasova/Morozov doing clean competitions.
4) Men: The technical difficulty is insane, so really difficult to see two clean skates. I don't think that someone among top men did a clean competition last season

Just because dancers don't jump, doesn't mean there is less risk, if anything it is more detailed and complicated. One has to know what they are looking for and/or at out there though.
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
Just because dancers don't jump, doesn't mean there is less risk, if anything it is more detailed and complicated. One has to know what they are looking for and/or at out there though.
Well, i don't know much about ice dance but i don't think that twizzles are as risky than quad lutz.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Well, i don't know much about ice dance but i don't think that twizzles are as risky than quad lutz.

I've skated both dance and singles at elite level: So I speak from experience.

ETA: While twizzles are difficult and we see top teams bobble them or not be able to keep timing with them, one needs to be comparing a jump in singles to a lift or other similar feature in dance. There are many top singles skaters who wouldn't go near dance if you paid them millions of $$ because of the difficulty and how intricate it is.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Just speaking mathematically :biggrin: it is pretty hard to skate two clean programs. Just talking about jumps for men, this is 10 straight jumping passes withput any bobbles. Let's say you have an 80 percent chance of landing your jump or combo cleanly. The probability of doing it ten times in a row is .80[SUP]10[/SUP] = 11 percent.

Now factor in the human components of nerves, stamina, focus, etc., plus the requirement of putting it all together in a choreographed program with difficult transitions and non-jump elements. I think we should not be surprised that this is a rarity these days.

Not to mention that the risk/reward ratio in the IJS is tilted fairly heavily towards "no guts, no glory."
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
ETA: While twizzles are difficult and we see top teams bobble them or not be able to keep timing with them, one needs to be comparing a jump in singles to a lift or other similar feature in dance. There are many top singles skaters who wouldn't go near dance if you paid them millions of $$ because of the difficulty and how intricate it is.

If by "clean" we mean no deductions and positive GOE, I think that the IJS obscures the difficulty of ice dance. For all practical purposes there is no such thing as negative GOE at the highest level of competition, even for elements that are weakly performed, relative to the highest standard.

I just looked at the protocols for the free dance at the Internationale de France for example. Out of 100 performed elements (10 elements for each of 10 skaters), 99 got positive GOE. The only element that received negative GOE was a fall by the eighth-place couple, Smart and Diaz. It was extremely rare for even a single judge to give out even a single negative GOE, whatever the quality of the element.

I think this gives the impression to the audience that the dancers are not really doing that much -- just show up, you automatically get at least +2's and +3s for anything you do. The ISU would do the discipline a favor if they gave out more nuanced scores, instead of just gushing. Then the commentators could do their part by explaining why this couple got a +1 on their rotational lift, but that couple got a -1.

Actually, Tanith Belbin as a commentator does a pretty good job of this. But stricter scoring would help. IMHO.
 

zyxwl2015

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Well imo that really depends. I'll say about ladies b/c that's the field I follow most:

It's really different between now and some years ago. Around ten years ago it's quite rare for ladies to skate two clean program with top difficulties (3-3s etc.), and you see many times skaters with not-clean programs end up on podiums. That start to change since (maybe) around Sochi, and now it's quite common for top ladies to skate clean or near-clean programs. For example in Sochi top 3 ladies all delivered two clean programs, in PyeongChang Zagitova and Medvedeva both skated cleanly too.

It's also largely depends on each individual skater. Eteri's skater's are known for delivering clean programs (or occasionally small mistakes), eg. Zagitova, Medvedeva in 2015-2018, Yulia Lipnitskaya in 2012-2014, Sasha Trusova and Alena Kostornaya etc; Some other Russian and Japanese top skaters are consistent too, eg. Satoko Miyahara, Sofia Samodurova, Maria Sotskova at her prime and Elena Radionova at her prime; and there are some skaters known for not being consistent, eg. Anna Pogorilaya or Carolina Kostner. So it really depends.
 

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...
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Jan 10, 2014
As someone "known for not being consistent", Caro was one of the few ladies last season that had skated an entirely clean competition at Rostelecom (all positive GOES in the Short Program and Free Skate and even with all level 4's on spins and footwork). Just some food for thought ;).
 

treblemakerem

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Well, i don't know much about ice dance but i don't think that twizzles are as risky than quad lutz.

I think it’s difficult to compare dance with singles. Obviously falls are fairly rare in dance and often dance programs are “clean” as in no major mistakes or falls. It is so intricate though, I might have missed someone but I only remember one couple getting level 4 on both sections of their pattern dance in RD during the Grand Prix. That really made me realize how perfect you have to be to hit those key points.
 

lyrichord

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 13, 2014
By the protocols, Javier Fernandez technically skated two clean programs at Pyeongchang, everything plus GOE, but he didn't execute all of his planned content with the quad popped into double.
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
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Jan 28, 2014

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
I agree that some years ago clean skates or protocols were more rare some years ago.
I think Yuna Kim has only 3 competitions without obvious mistakes, and 2 cleans competitions by protocols (both olympics).
 
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