Ted Barton interviews Eteri Tutberidze

esteticlove · Jan 4, 2019

It's pretty obvious that Eteri has a better training method for ladies than Brian. She's the best in the field right now, so it's also quite understandable for Evgenia or any other student, who left Tutberidze, to be struggling and going downwards. People here tend to compare those 2 coaching teams constantly, implying that Evgenia's decision was wrong. But in fact she didn't have any other option. I strongly believe that Evgenia left Eteri mostly for personal reasons, they probably had some misunderstandings etc. going into the Olympics and afterwards. We never saw what was going on behind the curtains and we'll never know. Fact is, that Evgenia didn't have much choice after leaving.

Who was she supposed to choose as her coach on Russian soil?
- Underperforming Boyanova, who also has some questionable methods?
- Mishin for the price of her artistry and reputation? I don't even know if he himself would have been up to it.
- Urmanov? He managed to imrpove Lipnitskaya's technqiue to some extent, he has coached Denis (beautiful 3A at the time) but is he experienced enough to train an elite skater as Medvedeva?
- Tschebotareva - she has enough struggles with Misha and Stanislava, the reputation bonus would have been there though.
- Rukavicin? - the only skater I know is Aliev, but his technique is similar to what Eteri teaches her girls. So, not an optimal choice for someone who wants to improve his tech.
- Pluschenko - well, probably the only one who should have been an option, in my opinion. But it's more than risky to get a coach, who himself is not an experienced one. We are speaking about Plushy, though, I think he has a vision of what he wants to achieve with his students. He just needs time and..material. He's doing more than fine with Tarakanova but it's still very bold to say that he's a great coach.

So, on an international level Brian is the second best choice after Eteri. He was underperformin with Dalemand and Tursynbaeva, but he has experience with Olympic champions and the psychological burdens that come with them. I don't see Evgenia doing better with Rafael, for example. He coaches Nathan Chan, but he has struggles with ladies - Wagner, Honda, Eunsoo Lim..they all tend to UR their jumps. It's a pitty.

You all might go after Brian as much as you want but truth is, he was the best alternative after Eteri. Mainly for the purposes of Evgenia - to improve her technique. You would say, or you already have said, that Evgenia would have been doing better if she stayed with Eteri. To state something like this, I guess...you're someone who doesn't care about the psychological burdens that skaters have to cope with. No wonder that you are fine with malnutritioned athletes (regardless of the coaching team) because *this is how it has always been in figure skating and it can't be changed*

moriel · Jan 4, 2019

Sugar Coated said:
I actually don't have a problem with weight check-ins if done right (never in front of others and no scolding after a weigh in). The sport does require monitoring weight and potentially making adjustments to diet if needed. Personally, weigh ins should be blind to the skater (and coach) ideally and only monitored by a dietician or health professional (but that's unlikely, just what I would hope for so that children aren't getting attached to certain numbers and the coaches are pressuring them to achieve certain numbers that might be unreasonable).

The idea that a 14-year-old girl who gains .5 kg is "risking her health" is outrageous. Weight fluctuates about this much or more due to hormones and water weight without changes to body composition. But more importantly, 14 year old girls who have not completed puberty are expected to be gaining weight. They aren't done growing. To imply that any body change is "risky" or damaging to them is to imply that normal growth and development is dangerous. And that's exactly what fuels eating disorders. These girls are expected to gain weight at some point in the future unless they are purposefully depriving themselves of necessary calories or suppressing puberty. It should be about being the healthiest one can be and adjusting to any natural/expected weight gain.

I have real concerns with the way Eteri handles weight issues. She's not alone by any means since its a problem for most people in the sport but that doesn't make it okay. I really disliked the part of the documentary when Alina mentions that she lost 400 grams because she said it in a way that sounded like she was competing with Zhenya when neither should know the other's weight or be talking about it, especially on camera. Weight and the weigh-ins should be private and not discussed with teammates.

Explaining again. Weight has major impact in FS, specifically affecting jumps. I've seen several skaters mentioning that even minor weight gain would affect their jumping ability. In rythmic gymnastics, such weight gains lead to pains and even fractures quite commonly too.
So yes, a .5kg weight gain will surely affect a 14-year-old girl jumping ability. And the risk to her health would be not the weight gain, but training as nothing happened. Such weight gain WILL affect the athletic abilities, and thus the training must be changed to accomodate it.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 4, 2019

esteticlove said:
It's pretty obvious that Eteri has a better training method for ladies than Brian. She's the best in the field right now, so it's also quite understandable for Evgenia or any other student, who left Tutberidze, to be struggling and going downwards. People here tend to compare those 2 coaching teams constantly, implying that Evgenia's decision was wrong. But in fact she didn't have any other option. I strongly believe that Evgenia left Eteri mostly for personal reasons, they probably had some misunderstandings etc. going into the Olympics and afterwards. We never saw what was going on behind the curtains and we'll never know. Fact is, that Evgenia didn't have much choice after leaving.

Who was she supposed to choose as her coach on Russian soil?
- Underperforming Boyanova, who also has some questionable methods?
- Mishin for the price of her artistry and reputation? I don't even know if he himself would have been up to it.
- Urmanov? He managed to imrpove Lipnitskaya's technqiue to some extent, he has coached Denis (beautiful 3A at the time) but is he experienced enough to train an elite skater as Medvedeva?
- Tschebotareva - she has enough struggles with Misha and Stanislava, the reputation bonus would have been there though.
- Rukavicin? - the only skater I know is Aliev, but his technique is similar to what Eteri teaches her girls. So, not an optimal choice for someone who wants to improve his tech.
- Pluschenko - well, probably the only one who should have been an option, in my opinion. But it's more than risky to get a coach, who himself is not an experienced one. We are speaking about Plushy, though, I think he has a vision of what he wants to achieve with his students. He just needs time and..material. He's doing more than fine with Tarakanova but it's still very bold to say that he's a great coach.

So, on an international level Brian is the second best choice after Eteri. He was underperformin with Dalemand and Tursynbaeva, but he has experience with Olympic champions and the psychological burdens that come with them. I don't see Evgenia doing better with Rafael, for example. He coaches Nathan Chan, but he has struggles with ladies - Wagner, Honda, Eunsoo Lim..they all tend to UR their jumps. It's a pitty.

You all might go after Brian as much as you want but truth is, he was the best alternative after Eteri. Mainly for the purposes of Evgenia - to improve her technique. You would say, or you already have said, that Evgenia would have been doing better if she stayed with Eteri. To state something like this, I guess...you're someone who doesn't care about the psychological burdens that skaters have to cope with. No wonder that you are fine with malnutritioned athletes (regardless of the coaching team) because *this is how it has always been in figure skating and it can't be changed*

I’d have chosen Angelina Turenco for Zhenya for a million reasons and one. The fed like totally hates her though for reasons I can’t explain but her programs would have been a great change and she could have stayed closer to home and most importantly the local competitions.

I’m still fairly optimistic about Brian but I don’t think missing the national team is to be brushed over. It’s going to be even harder going forward too. It is a big deal. Still...I’m holding out hope.

Sugar Coated · Jan 4, 2019

moriel said:
Explaining again. Weight has major impact in FS, specifically affecting jumps. I've seen several skaters mentioning that even minor weight gain would affect their jumping ability. In rythmic gymnastics, such weight gains lead to pains and even fractures quite commonly too.
So yes, a .5kg weight gain will surely affect a 14-year-old girl jumping ability. And the risk to her health would be not the weight gain, but training as nothing happened. Such weight gain WILL affect the athletic abilities, and thus the training must be changed to accomodate it.

Where is the data that this leads to increased pain and fractures? Is this info coming from the coach or actual scientific evidence. Also, we are talking about such minor weight changes that can be due to how much water you drank and not actual changes to your body. Someone can be 2-3 lbs lighter or heavier than they were earlier in the day which is clearly not due to changes in actual fat/muscle, we are not talking about someone suddenly gaining 20 lbs in a short time (sorry American so hard for me to think in kg).

Weights gain can impact abilities like you say but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to prevent teenage girls not done growing from gaining weight. Telling a girl that she can’t train jumps anymore if she gains 1-2 lbs is essentially telling her she better not gain even the smallest amount of weight. And these girls should be gaining small amounts of weight over time if they are remaining healthy. If they don’t, they are likely depriving themselves of nutrients that lead to weaker bones and increase the risk for fractures.

Again, where does the evidence come from about girls getting pain/fractures if they gain weight? Because it’s very possible that the girls attempting to prevent weight gain or those using unhealthy eating/restriction to addres a recent gain are those that are getting fractures. A girl who suddenly gained 5 lbs is afraid her coach is going to freak out or that she won’t be competitive any more. So this girl starts starving herself or going for runs after practice or even abuses medications. And shortly after this same girl has a stress fracture. Is this due to the weight gain?

esteticlove · Jan 4, 2019

moriel said:
You say it like Eteri is a nutritionist or a doctor. I'm pretty sure there is someone else giving them dietary advice.

Yes, you're right. Eteri, nor any other coach, are nutritionists or doctors. They might have some experience on health issues but still, they don't have the needed qualifications to be managing such problems alone. I absolutely agree that those people are "only" coaches, they're responsible for trainings, finding the best path for an athlete and guiding that athlete trough difficulties and we don't have the right to demand from them to show medical knowledge. Though, people should demand from them to provide their athletes possibly the best medical care and consult specialists, when needed. Especially when the athletes are children/teens!

However, hearing Alina saying that her coach told her that she just has to train over her knee disease and the pain will eventually go away sounds as if her coach is some medical expert, which she currently isn't. This is pretty much the same as what Rita Mamun's coach was shouting at her in the documentary - "there's no healthy athlete (showing her own injury)...but you should just work trough the physical pain". I am giving this example, just to show that such mindset is not Eteri's own, it's in fact very common in elite sport. I am not a hater but I can't turn a blind eye on health matters.

samkrut@mail.ru · Jan 4, 2019

esteticlove said:
It's pretty obvious that Eteri has a better training method for ladies than Brian...

Who was she supposed to choose as her coach on Russian soil?
- Underperforming Boyanova, who also has some questionable methods?
- Mishin for the price of her artistry and reputation? I don't even know if he himself would have been up to it.

Don't you see a contradiction praising Eteri's methods first and naming them questionable some lines after.

Buyanova is not an obviously negative case for me. Gubanova this season shows clear progress vs. the previous one. Kovtun came out of nowhere better than before. At least his performance during the Nationals was one of his best ever.

As for Mishin, I did not see any artistry and reputation deterioration when he coached Kostner. On the contrary, for a short period of time she was on the upward trajectory.

Brian is supposedly a good coach. But Zhenya showed her best results in a very different Russian environment when Eteri and her team are daily at the rink from dusk till dawn with the exception of competitions and vacations. Now she is mostly on her own like Lizbet's mother said. Can she adjust? I have no idea. The question is not about her skating once 2 clean programs to receive 215-220 for them (rather than 230-235 she used to). The question is bringing back consistency. This season is gone. We were promised big improvements in 18 months. Unfortunately, if we count from September 2018 this will bring us to March 2020. In such a case, the next season will be also gone.

DenissVFan · Jan 4, 2019

Here's an article about high school coaches' awareness of the female athlete triad. It'd be interesting to have a similar study about elite figure skating coaches.

moriel · Jan 4, 2019

esteticlove said:
Yes, you're right. Eteri, nor any other coach, are nutritionists or doctors. They might have some experience on health issues but still, they don't have the needed qualifications to be managing such problems alone. I absolutely agree that those people are "only" coaches, they're responsible for trainings, finding the best path for an athlete and guiding that athlete trough difficulties and we don't have the right to demand from them to show medical knowledge. Though, people should demand from them to provide their athletes possibly the best medical care and consult specialists, when needed. Especially when the athletes are children/teens!

However, hearing Alina saying that her coach told her that she just has to train over her knee disease and the pain will eventually go away sounds as if her coach is some medical expert, which she currently isn't. This is pretty much the same as what Rita Mamun's coach was shouting at her in the documentary - "there's no healthy athlete (showing her own injury)...but you should just work trough the physical pain". I am giving this example, just to show that such mindset is not Eteri's own, it's in fact very common in elite sport. I am not a hater but I can't turn a blind eye on health matters.

Considering Alina's illness is something you got to outgrow as there is no treatment, i wouldnt really worry. I had some random persistent knee pains as a kid, and tbh, I came to the "do whatever you want through physical pain" myself, because the other option was "not do whatever you want through physical pain".

Overall though, my main point is here is that people seem to dislike Eteri based on the fact she does what is common practice in elite sport, and very likely done by about 99% of the top coaches.

Scott512 · Jan 4, 2019

esteticlove said:
It's pretty obvious that Eteri has a better training method for ladies than Brian. She's the best in the field right now, so it's also quite understandable for Evgenia or any other student, who left Tutberidze, to be struggling and going downwards. People here tend to compare those 2 coaching teams constantly, implying that Evgenia's decision was wrong. But in fact she didn't have any other option. I strongly believe that Evgenia left Eteri mostly for personal reasons, they probably had some misunderstandings etc. going into the Olympics and afterwards. We never saw what was going on behind the curtains and we'll never know. Fact is, that Evgenia didn't have much choice after leaving.

Who was she supposed to choose as her coach on Russian soil?
- Underperforming Boyanova, who also has some questionable methods?
- Mishin for the price of her artistry and reputation? I don't even know if he himself would have been up to it.
- Urmanov? He managed to imrpove Lipnitskaya's technqiue to some extent, he has coached Denis (beautiful 3A at the time) but is he experienced enough to train an elite skater as Medvedeva?
- Tschebotareva - she has enough struggles with Misha and Stanislava, the reputation bonus would have been there though.
- Rukavicin? - the only skater I know is Aliev, but his technique is similar to what Eteri teaches her girls. So, not an optimal choice for someone who wants to improve his tech.
- Pluschenko - well, probably the only one who should have been an option, in my opinion. But it's more than risky to get a coach, who himself is not an experienced one. We are speaking about Plushy, though, I think he has a vision of what he wants to achieve with his students. He just needs time and..material. He's doing more than fine with Tarakanova but it's still very bold to say that he's a great coach.

So, on an international level Brian is the second best choice after Eteri. He was underperformin with Dalemand and Tursynbaeva, but he has experience with Olympic champions and the psychological burdens that come with them. I don't see Evgenia doing better with Rafael, for example. He coaches Nathan Chan, but he has struggles with ladies - Wagner, Honda, Eunsoo Lim..they all tend to UR their jumps. It's a pitty.

You all might go after Brian as much as you want but truth is, he was the best alternative after Eteri. Mainly for the purposes of Evgenia - to improve her technique. You would say, or you already have said, that Evgenia would have been doing better if she stayed with Eteri. To state something like this, I guess...you're someone who doesn't care about the psychological burdens that skaters have to cope with. No wonder that you are fine with malnutritioned athletes (regardless of the coaching team) because *this is how it has always been in figure skating and it can't be changed*

What could have been so personal between them that made Zhenya leave? The only thing I can think of is that Eteri set Alina up with a program that could beat Zhenya. It happened. Medvedeva even went public in March or April stating that she would not leave Eteri. Then she did. I hope in the end it works out for Zhenya because she's done so much for Russia and bringing Eteri and her staff to a level of success they never experienced before. Both sides benefited from this relationship that is undeniable. I just wonder if Medvedeva would still be Russian number 1 and world number one if she did not make this coaching change. I think so.

As for Eteri she is a coach and she wanted her top two pupils to finish 1 and 2 in the Olympics as the coach because that's what's best for her. It happened. Thats sports. Hoping the best for Zhenya
next season. She should be much better. Eteri is doing quite well wihout Zhenya. But I am sure she misses her very much.

Scott512 · Jan 4, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
I’d have chosen Angelina Turenco for Zhenya for a million reasons and one. The fed like totally hates her though for reasons I can’t explain but her programs would have been a great change and she could have stayed closer to home and most importantly the local competitions.

I’m still fairly optimistic about Brian but I don’t think missing the national team is to be brushed over. It’s going to be even harder going forward too. It is a big deal. Still...I’m holding out hope.

I agree with you I think Angelina will be her coach if and when she returns to Russia. I think she's an underrated coach. Eteri is a great coach but there are many other good coaches too especially in Russia.

Casual · Jan 4, 2019

moriel said:
You say it like Eteri is a nutritionist or a doctor. I'm pretty sure there is someone else giving them dietary advice.
But of course I understand your point - whatever Eteri does is wrong to you. If she gave them advice on what to eat, people here would still bash her.

If Eteri is not a nutritionist or a doctor, then where does she get off giving nutritional and medical advice - such as praising her young student for eating only powdered drinks to lose weight, or (looks like) advising Alina to "shut her mouth and stop eating" to stop puberty?

Eteri's students are engaging in unhealthy weight-control practices - it is absolutely the fault of the coach. "Other coaches do it too" is no excuse.

Tolstoj · Jan 4, 2019

[email protected] said:
Don't you see a contradiction praising Eteri's methods first and naming them questionable some lines after.

Buyanova is not an obviously negative case for me. Gubanova this season shows clear progress vs. the previous one. Kovtun came out of nowhere better than before. At least his performance during the Nationals was one of his best ever.

As for Mishin, I did not see any artistry and reputation deterioration when he coached Kostner. On the contrary, for a short period of time she was on the upward trajectory.

Brian is supposedly a good coach. But Zhenya showed her best results in a very different Russian environment when Eteri and her team are daily at the rink from dusk till dawn with the exception of competitions and vacations. Now she is mostly on her own like Lizbet's mother said. Can she adjust? I have no idea. The question is not about her skating once 2 clean programs to receive 215-220 for them (rather than 230-235 she used to). The question is bringing back consistency. This season is gone. We were promised big improvements in 18 months. Unfortunately, if we count from September 2018 this will bring us to March 2020. In such a case, the next season will be also gone.

It's not that Eteri has better training methods: they have more efficient methods to bring you to the top, but you also have to consider what's the cost. Look at how thin Shcherbakova is, i wonder how many of her skaters are in the same situation Julia Antipova was 4 years ago. Not to take away any credit, as Lilbet's mom said Eteri still cares about her students, they have a great team.

With Buyanova, Evgenia's career would be gone already. You look at Sotskova and Tsurskaya, and they more artistic skaters now, their skating skills are vastly improved, but on the other hand they don't train hard enough, so level 2-3 spins and underrotated jumps or even falls are always to be expected. There is a problem of priorities in that group, they focus on things that in the grand scheme, they don't count much.

And sorry i can't see those improvements on Gubanova: she was already a fantastic skater last year, and she got better results and better scores at domestic competitions with Angelina Turenko (despite CSKA's help this season)

Russian Nationals 2018 - Gubanova was 6th with a combined score of 206,60 points.
Russian Nationals 2019 - She finished 9th with a total score of 203,76 points

Kovtun is a different case since he worked closely with Alexander Uspenski, who previously worked and probably learned a lot about coaching from Inna Goncharenko, and you can tell even from his reaction, he's the one who pushed Kovtun to do more at each competition. Besides that men's figure skating is different, you can expect a fall from them and still medal.

Mishin is such an underrated option in Russia, he seems the only coach there who cares about long-lasting skaters, and most importantly healthy skaters: i guess the fact he works in SPB (always overlooked by the Federation in comparison with Moscow) makes him a less appealing option: you often see SPB skaters going to Moscow but never the opposite. Though it should be said, when Julia left Eteri she reached Mishin and he refused to take her in his group (because Liza was World Champion at the time)

Casual · Jan 4, 2019

esteticlove said:
It's pretty obvious that Eteri has a better training method for ladies than Brian. She's the best in the field right now, so it's also quite understandable for Evgenia or any other student, who left Tutberidze, to be struggling and going downwards.

It is not obvious. Eteri has the more powerful federation behind her, and what is obvious is that Russian ladies get a huge Russian bonus, getting better scores. But those scores do not make Eteri's training method better compared to Japanese, Canadian, etc. coaches. She's better in some things, and worse in others.

She knows how to train very young girls to jump and rotate. Meanwhile, the artistic quality of Eteri-style skating is subpar compared to others. Eteri plays very smart and plays to win; but other ladies programs are often more aesthetically pleasing, and other ladies jumps are often higher and longer, etc.

As for jumps quality, I find it ludicrous that a multi-year World Champion and Olympic Silver Medalist has to re-learn her jumps to finally improve her technique - that doesn't speak too high of Eteri prior training, especially for an older (post-pub) body, IMHO.

I think EM moving to Brian was the right move. I don't know if Evgenia will ever win another medal (that Russian bonus already decreased for her, and she started getting called on her mistakes). But I for one started enjoying her more. At least she's trying to do higher quality skating, and to perform and jump cleaner.

dobrevaria · Jan 4, 2019

I don't understand how people can use the excuse "others coaches do it" as well. Like. Seriously. It doesn't make it okay, and it will never make it okay.

I'm sorry but how can people read this and not be alarmed (it's a statement from Alina by the way) ? When you have to control how much you drink per day, then sorry, but there is a problem. I know that drinking or eating is going to affect your weight, it's logical and human. But trying to maintain the same weight all the time (and trough puberty) by regulating all the time what you eat and drink is clearly not healthy.
When I read statements like this, I've the impression these skaters want to keep their weight at a minimum, which Evgenia herself admitted in an interview during the off season (where she tried to keep her weight "at the minimum" - her words, not mine). It's not normal, and it's not okay. You CAN'T expect skaters to weight 40kg all their lives, that's unrealistic and that's where eating disorders can happen.

When you have a good technique, which do not rely on petite body structure and rotation speed, then, I think gaining 0.50 is not really something to worry about since, you know, your technique is not going to fail you. Just saying.

Casual · Jan 4, 2019

zenskate said:
It's not an excuse. It's an argument about double standards, and an extremely valid one. People are going after Eteri with pitchforks for things they forgive or ignore in other coaches. Look at how many pages of criticism have been written about Eteri, and how many pages have been written about the others. It's like comparing the number of fans Yuzuru has with the number of fans other skater have.

No one likes double standards, except for the ones who benefit from it.

Except it's not a double standard - because exactly of what you mention above. It's about visibility.

Who is more visible, Yuzuru or other male skaters? And who will be more talked about, if he does something stupid or objectionable, an Olympic Gold Medalist or some other barely known skater?

Same with Eteri. She is supposedly a top ladies coach (at least her girls win top placements including OGM & SGM) - thus she is more visible. That's why people talk more about her instead of others.

NoviceFan · Jan 4, 2019

dobrevaria said:
When you have a good technique, which do not rely on petite body structure and rotation speed, then, I think gaining 0.50 is not really something to worry about since, you know, your technique is not going to fail you. Just saying.

True - the other coaches that posters here have referenced have had successful students over the age of 18. Eteri?

Casual · Jan 4, 2019

zenskate said:
About the weight issue, Raf and TAT have both said that gaining weight, even small amounts, can cause serious injury when skaters try to jump. Raf was more diplomatic than TAT, but they're both experienced coaches, and when experienced coaches agree, I expect that what they have to say is valid.

I wouldn't put Raf as an example of how coaches should talk about weight. He was the cause of Adam Rippon's eating issues. ("How do I make an elephant jump?")

It's old Russian (Soviet) school: results above health, starve but get thinner.

It's classic, but that doesn't make it right. Sports training and understanding of nutrition have evolved beyond that. (Raf tried to evolve, too.)

samkrut@mail.ru · Jan 4, 2019

After reading some of the latest posts I just hope that Eteri and her skaters keep winning competitions in the years to come. While random posters keep writing "analytical" posts about her here and elsewhere.

Bcash · Jan 4, 2019

[email protected] said:
After reading some of the latest posts I just hope that Eteri and her skaters keep winning competitions in the years to come. While random posters keep writing "analytical" posts about her here and elsewhere.

I hope not. Not when they keep churning out random choreography and ungainly, sometimes cheated elements.

samkrut@mail.ru · Jan 4, 2019

Bcash said:
I hope not. Not when they keep churning out random choreography and ungainly, sometimes cheated elements.

This is exactly what I meant.

Ted Barton interviews Eteri Tutberidze

esteticlove

moriel

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Sugar Coated

esteticlove

[email protected]

Medalist

DenissVFan

moriel

Scott512

Scott512

Casual

Tolstoj

Casual

dobrevaria

Casual

NoviceFan

Triple Something-Triple Looping

Casual

[email protected]

Medalist

Bcash

[email protected]

Medalist

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