Ted Barton interviews Eteri Tutberidze

eaglehelang · Jan 3, 2019

moriel said:
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As for "standard in sport", i mean there is no point in bashing one specific coach for it, as it is standard in sport. Just bash everybody, and dislike everybody.

For your 'standard in sport' remark, read Rafael's recent interview, last part :
https://m.sport-express.ru/figure-s...-zagitova-rafael-arutyunyan-intervyu-1482368/

Rafael is careful with weight gain remarks to his female skaters in case it become an eating disorder. Then the coach will be blamed.

In artistic gymnastics, someone had to die from anorexia before they did something.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christy_Henrich
A judge commented that Christy needed to lose weight. She did, until she lost her life.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 3, 2019

IMO you’ve all veered into a no win OFF topic. Personally I’ve always felt that guys suffer from unhealthy diets and body issues the most on the whole but no one really talks about it. Also at least when you’re a minor you’ve got a parent watching over you who should take an active interest. I found Adam Rippon’s comment “nothing tastes as good as feeling thin” one of the most scary and destructive remarks I’ve read on the topic. The influence a statement like that can have is not to be underestimated.

Unsure what this has to do with the interview though. I doubt there are very many coaches on any level who haven’t coached someone with an eating disorder. :scratch:

andromache · Jan 3, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
IMO you’ve all veered into a no win OFF topic. Personally I’ve always felt that guys suffer from unhealthy diets and body issues the most on the whole but no one really talks about it. Also at least when you’re a minor you’ve got a parent watching over you who should take an active interest. I found Adam Rippon’s comment “nothing tastes as good as feeling thin” one of the most scary and destructive remarks I’ve read on the topic. The influence a statement can have like that is not to be underestimated.

Just want to note that I'm not sure the context of Adam's statement, but it's actually a pretty famous quote from supermodel Kate Moss that is extremely common to see and repeat in severe weight loss/eating disorder communities. It's not surprising (only sad) that a figure skater of any gender would repeat it.

Baron Vladimir · Jan 3, 2019

andromache said:
Can you provide a link to the Buianova interview about Kovtun?

Anyway, just because it's the "standard in sport" doesn't make it okay. Figure skating is one day going to have to confront the issues related to dieting, body image, etc. that are endemic to the sport. As more skaters become brave enough to go public with their struggles with eating disorders, hopefully the culture will be forced to change. We should NOT just accept that this is how the sport has to be.

Ok, but strict dieting and eating disorders are two different things. Dieting is not a cause of eating disorders, but subjective malfunctions of body image which are direct product of malfunctions in the image of personality (self). People are not getting eating disorders because of dieting/pressure on the body, but because of pressure on 'self'.

andromache · Jan 3, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
Ok, but strict dieting and eating disorders are two different things. Dieting is not a cause of eating disorders, but subjective malfunctions of body image which are direct product of malfunctions in the image of personality (self). People are not getting eating disorders because of dieting.

Dieting IS a cause of eating disorders. https://www.nedc.com.au/eating-disorders/eating-disorders-explained/disordered-eating-and-dieting/

https://centerfordiscovery.com/blog/dieting-cause-eating-disorders/

https://casapalmera.com/blog/relationship-between-dieting-and-eating-disorders/

https://www.eatingdisorder.org/eating-disorder-information/underlying-causes/

Unhealthy, extreme diets can lead to eating disorders. That's a fact.

Baron Vladimir · Jan 3, 2019

andromache said:
Dieting IS a cause of eating disorders. https://www.nedc.com.au/eating-disorders/eating-disorders-explained/disordered-eating-and-dieting/

https://centerfordiscovery.com/blog/dieting-cause-eating-disorders/

https://casapalmera.com/blog/relationship-between-dieting-and-eating-disorders/

https://www.eatingdisorder.org/eating-disorder-information/underlying-causes/

Unhealthy, extreme diets can lead to eating disorders. That's a fact.

Well you can read it better, but its say - dieting is a common form or product of the disorder... but disorder itself has a mental cause. Being on the diet doesn't mean you have or you will develop an eating disorder. Note that disorteed eating (which is a thing i've never studied about to be fair) is different than eating disorders. EDIT: In article i found its saying that 35% of dieters can progress to patological dieting, and 20-25% of those with patological dieting can develop an eating disorder. (And my point was that you need to have some other forms of psychological malfuctions or distress to develop it. Being an elite figure skater who is constantly striving to be the best and to fullfill high expectations of parents/fans/society is a stressfull activity and more direct precursor of eating disorder than being on a diet per se).

el henry · Jan 3, 2019

L

moriel said:
....

As for what Zhenya expected, we know from her interviews that she did not entirely expect such coaching approach, see all the interviews that mention her first training sessions, and how Brian needed to spend more time with her in detriment to other students.
There is a thing, this approach is VERY different from how coaching tends to be done in Russia, so when you say "oh they had a 3 hours interview with a translator present and of course they figured it out", chances are they didn't.

We know from Brian’s interviews that he did need to spend more time with Zhenya at first. Obviously it is a brand new environment; she was not accustomed to the TCC method of training and he did spend more time with her explaining it to her. And we know from Brian’s interviews that she now “gets” it, that she understands the training methods and programs, and is integrating well.

No student of Brian’s has complained that his concentration on Zhenya worked to their “detriment”; :scratch2:

indeed, judging by results of the TCC skaters, quite the opposite :biggrin:

and since Lee Barkell works out of TCC, I am counting students who work with him.

samkrut@mail.ru · Jan 3, 2019

andromache said:
Not to mention that Kovtun is an adult and ultimately responsible for his own decisions, whereas preteens/young teenagers are impressionable and easily influenced and they're simply doing what their coach tells them to do because they are too young to question it.

They have parents, don't they?

andromache · Jan 3, 2019

[email protected] said:
They have parents, don't they?

Kids with eating disorders get really, really good at hiding them from their parents if they think their parents would intervene.

Parents may just trust the coach's methods/diet advice, especially if their kid is getting competitive results.

And there are also plenty of parents out there who can be a factor in a kid's eating disorder - lots of bad parents pressure their kids to lose weight, eat less, etc. I imagine those parents exist in figure skating.

A skating coach is a professional who is being trusted with the health and well-being of children. If a skating coach is not qualified to give nutritional advice to elite athletes, they should consult with one.

Casual · Jan 3, 2019

[email protected] said:
They have parents, don't they?

They might have parents with feverish dreams of stardom and disregard for mental/physical health of their kids. Or they might have parents who are overly trusting, and who rely on "experts" (a coach).

A coach has a special position of authority and expertise, which can be easily abused.

Casual · Jan 3, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
Well you can read it better, but its say - dieting is a common form or product of the disorder... but disorder itself has a mental cause. Being on the diet doesn't mean you have or you will develop an eating disorder. Note that disorteed eating (which is a thing i've never studied about to be fair) is different than eating disorders. EDIT: In article i found its saying that 35% of dieters can progress to patological dieting, and 20-25% of those with patological dieting can develop an eating disorder. (And my point was that you need to have some other forms of psychological malfuctions or distress to develop it. Being an elite figure skater who is constantly striving to be the best and to fullfill high expectations of parents/fans/society is a stressfull activity and more direct cause of eating disorder than being on a diet per se).

Connection between dieting and eating disorders is like drinking and alcoholism - you can't become an alcoholic if you don't start drinking regularly first.

samkrut@mail.ru · Jan 3, 2019

If the chances of getting eating disorder with Eteri's methods were 50% or more we would have massive parents' outcry. It does not happen: parents are standing in line. If the chance is 10% or less it's the risk parents are willing to take with stardom being the goal.

Casual · Jan 3, 2019

andromache said:
Just want to note that I'm not sure the context of Adam's statement, but it's actually a pretty famous quote from supermodel Kate Moss that is extremely common to see and repeat in severe weight loss/eating disorder communities. It's not surprising (only sad) that a figure skater of any gender would repeat it.

Very sad. Nothing tastes as good as feeling healthy - should be response to that moronic quote.

Baron Vladimir · Jan 3, 2019

Casual said:
Connection between dieting and eating disorders is like drinking and alcoholism - you can't become an alcoholic if you don't start drinking regularly first.

Yes, but if you don't start drinking, with that kind of personality/self you will develop another type of addiction. Like those who are not on the strictly diet will not develop eating desorders, but they will surely develop some other form of personality disorder (because they already have some psichological malfunction or constant distress). Same with an eating disorder, to develop it - you already need to have some form of malfunction/distress, you can't develop an eating disorder just because you are on diet. The name - eating disorders is because disorteed eating is the most visible/recognazible symptom of the disorder or the precursor, not because it is the cause of it.

Casual · Jan 3, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
Yes, but if you don't start drinking, with that kind of personality/self you will develop some another type of addiction. Like those who are not on the strictly diet will not develop eating desorders, but they will surely develop some other form of personality disorder (because they already have some psichological malfunction or constant distress). Same with an eating disorder, to develop it - you already need to have some form of malfunction/distress, you can't develop an eating disorder just because you are on diet.

Yes, but those other personality disorders (which would replace unhealthy drinking/dieting) might not be as destructive.

Lets say one has a compulsive-obsessive personality prone to addictions - he might get into dieting leading to a full-blown eating disorder; or he may become a workaholic, obsessed about being a perfectionist at work. Still bad, but not lethal (for most).

el henry · Jan 3, 2019

I did some quick research, and I saw nothing where Adam Rippon quoted Kate Moss. Indeed, I see lots of stories where Adam talks about his past disordered eating and his present healthy habits.

But I do need to say, I personally have no time for "whataboutisms". Well, well, well, it's so unfair, you're picking on skaterA/CoachA/whoeverA and not skaterB/CoachB/whoeverB.

No it's not unfair:disapp: and whataboutisms don't matter:disapp:

No coach should tolerate disordered eating.
Every coach should be alert to its symptoms.
Every skater should be taught that it's *not* OK to engage in disordered eating to lose weight.
Every parent should be looking out for the best interest of their skater, and not assumed that they are, but made certain that they are.
The fact that a 14 year old is willing to do anything for a lifelong dream doesn't mean parents or coaches should tolerate it.

How can that be controversial? :scratch2:

vesperalvioletta · Jan 3, 2019

I feel bad contributing to this since we've already gone so far off topic, but these posts have given me a lot to think about and I wanted to throw in my two cents. I don't think dieting causes eating disorders. I think the thought process that makes a person come to the conclusion that they need to diet causes eating disorders. If there weren't the pressure to look a certain way either from a coach or instructor, or for people who aren't athletes, the societal obsession with equating thinness to beauty, happiness, and personal fulfillment, I don't know if people who are perfectly healthy would feel the need to diet. I do think that being in a high pressure athletic environment where how you look, how much you weigh, and how fit you are are heavily emphasized can lead to body dysmorphia and the feeling that, even though from an outsider's perspective you might look great, you personally can't see it and another person's approval is never going to be enough to make those thoughts go away.

Baron Vladimir · Jan 3, 2019

Casual said:
Yes, but those other personality disorders (which would replace unhealthy drinking/dieting) might not be as destructive.

Lets say one has a compulsive-obsessive personality prone to addictions - he might get into dieting leading to a full-blown eating disorder; or he may become a workaholic, obsessed about being a perfectionist at work. Still bad, but not lethal (for most).

They apsolutely could because most of them can leading to the suicide. To refuse a food (as a symptom of eating disorders) is actually a form of that and eating disorders like personality disorders are product of deep malfunctions in self, mostly developed in younger age and in relationship with parents/or children's imaging of parents. Strictly diet has nothing to do with that, it can be unhealthy off course (but not necessarily).

Casual · Jan 3, 2019

[email protected] said:
If the chances of getting eating disorder with Eteri's methods were 50% or more we would have massive parents' outcry. It does not happen: parents are standing in line. If the chance is 10% or less it's the risk parents are willing to take with stardom being the goal.

A parents' outcry in Russia against eating disorders? Unlikely. Culturally, there's more trust placed into respected positions of authority, and obedience to the coach's methods.

Because the experienced coach (an expert) knows best.

andromache · Jan 3, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
Yes, but if you don't start drinking, with that kind of personality/self you will develop some another type of addiction. Like those who are not on the strictly diet will not develop eating desorders, but they will surely develop some other form of personality disorder (because they already have some psichological malfunction or constant distress). Same with an eating disorder, to develop it - you already need to have some form of malfunction/distress, you can't develop an eating disorder just because you are on diet. The name - eating disorders is because disorteed eating is the most visible/recognazible symptom of the disorder or the precursor, not because it is the cause of it.

Extremely competitive elite sports are exactly the type of environment where "psychological malfunctions or constant distress" can be fostered in kids - especially in figure skating, where there is such an emphasis on weight loss, being as thin as possible, avoiding puberty, etc.

This is not to say that kids should be protected from all extremely competitive environments or elite sports. But elite sports should not require extreme dieting in order for kids to be successful. Period.

And Eteri is not the only problem. She's just the most vocal about it (I remember her talking about Yulia's Sochi diet) and under the most scrutiny because she has a stable of young girls. I expect plenty of other coaches are also to blame. Jenny Kirk alluded to Frank Carroll telling her to put off seeking treatment for her eating disorder until after the 2006 Olympics. (Note - she did NOT name Carroll specifically, but Carroll was her final coach at the time of her retirement, so she was with him when this happened - could have also been a member of his team.)

Putting up with eating disorders and sweeping them under the rug is a part of the culture of figure skating and it needs to change.

ETA: To my knowledge, Raf is the only coach who has talked seriously about changing how he addresses skaters and their weight and eating habits.

Ted Barton interviews Eteri Tutberidze

eaglehelang

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

andromache

Baron Vladimir

andromache

Baron Vladimir

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

[email protected]

Medalist

andromache

Casual

Casual

[email protected]

Medalist

Casual

Baron Vladimir

Casual

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

vesperalvioletta

Baron Vladimir

Casual

andromache

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