Ted Barton interviews Eteri Tutberidze

Just to chime in about other coaches, I'm not thinking of Raf (How do I get an elephant to fly?) as the poster boy for addressing disordered eating. ETA: although maybe Raf has lived and learned, as has Frank C. in my example below.

In addition, Frank Carroll, to his everlasting credit, lived and learned. Dice Murakami spoke in his retirement video about how he was living on coffee (literally eating nothing some days) when he trained in New Jersey, but when he moved to Frank, Frank found Dice a nutritionist who taught him healthy eating habits. He credited Frank with saving his life, again literally, and his career.

Which IMHO is what a coach should do:agree:

andromache said:

Extremely competitive elite sports are exactly the type of environment where "psychological malfunctions or constant distress" can be fostered in kids - especially in figure skating, where there is such an emphasis on weight loss, being as thin as possible, avoiding puberty, etc.

This is not to say that kids should be protected from all extremely competitive environments or elite sports. But elite sports should not require extreme dieting in order for kids to be successful. Period.

And Eteri is not the only problem. She's just the most vocal about it (I remember her talking about Yulia's Sochi diet) and under the most scrutiny because she has a stable of young girls. I expect plenty of other coaches are also to blame. Jenny Kirk alluded to Frank Carroll telling her to put off seeking treatment for her eating disorder until after the 2006 Olympics. (Note - she did NOT name Carroll specifically, but Carroll was her final coach at the time of her retirement, so she was with him when this happened - could have also been a member of his team.)

Putting up with eating disorders and sweeping them under the rug is a part of the culture of figure skating and it needs to change.

ETA: To my knowledge, Raf is the only coach who has talked seriously about changing how he addresses skaters and their weight and eating habits.

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I agree. But from my knowledge on that topic in both Yulia and Gracie cases, you need to 'blame' parents in first. And only then coaches and wider skaters envirovment alongside with representative skating federations too. Coaches can maybe try to prevent that kind of illness (if they can notice it), but they are not the one who cause them directly. Its on ISU to educate coaches and figure skating community on that topic, but when skater's parents and society care more about medals (and to 'make a winners') than about health, like they do, nobody can help then except skater's own mental/psychological set or relevant sports psychologist/therapist.

I can't believe some of the comments I'm seeing right now, seriously.

Baron Vladimir said:

If you ask me, I think those two things are just justifications for negativity which comes more from some personal spheres (well, jealosy could be the reason, but sometimes its just inner person's negativity projected there and Eteri is suitable object to project on). So, negativity towards Eteri comes just from one thing - 'negative people'

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Criticizing someone - without bashing, of course - does not mean being negative, it's just having an opinion. Thinking like that is extremely childish. I don't understand Eteri ubers (or any skater/coach ubers for that matter...) ready to defend the person you admire through your rose-colored glasses. I admire and respect Eteri for what she brought to the sport, and because of her journey. I'm not jealous of her (how am I even supposed to be jealous of a coach...) and it doesn't come from "personal spheres" (or whatever the hell that means) as well.

moriel said:

When people complain of Eteri vs diet and eating habits, they seem to forget this is kind of standard in sport.
I mean, check Buianova's interview on Kovtun losing weigh earlier this season.
Check rythmic gymnastics and Irina Viner.

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Hm.

1. Something being "standard" doesn't mean it's good. Models being starved is a standard in the model industry, it doesn't mean it's good or should be encouraged. Dieting is okay, when it's controlled and moderated. Dieting can, however, becomes out of control (because of several reasons), and that's where eating disorders can happen. I know that dieting is not something only related to Eteri. I know that, and I have no problem with dieting with moderation. However, I do have a problem when a coach is saying “I have never seen anything like it. She can practically not eat anything. When she has to lose weight, all she eats is powdered nutrients, which give her energy". Doesn't sound normal or HEALTHY to me. And it's not a problem with Eteri, it's a problem I have with all the coaches who think like that (which, by the way, don't prevent me of admiring their achievements...not everything is black and white and not everone is a Eteri hater )
2. Compating Kovtun to Tutberidze's girls is...comparing apples to oranges. For Kovtun, I think it was extreme (I read the interview and while I understood he needed to get back in shape, I didn't think he needed to lose that much). BUT, the main difference between Kovtun and Team Tutberidze is that Kovtun is a grown adult. He can make his own decisions. When you are a child, or a teenager, that's not really the case. Anyway, in both situations, no matter the genders or the age, extreme dieting is bad, and encouraging extreme dieting among children or teenagers is even more dangerous.

As for what Zhenya expected, we know from her interviews that she did not entirely expect such coaching approach, see all the interviews that mention her first training sessions, and how Brian needed to spend more time with her in detriment to other students.
There is a thing, this approach is VERY different from how coaching tends to be done in Russia, so when you say "oh they had a 3 hours interview with a translator present and of course they figured it out", chances are they didn't.

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And chances are that you are just making assumptions and you don't know, just like everyone in this board. Maybe they figured it out, maybe not, and frankly, what's the point of discussing that? Evgenia made her choice to move to Brian, who is a good coach, you admit it or not. Maybe less good than Eteri, maybe better, I don't know, and don't really care. At the end of the day, she had her conversation with Brian, she made her choice and we have no idea if they figured it out, or not.

Baron Vladimir said:

Ok, but strict dieting and eating disorders are two different things. Dieting is not a cause of eating disorders, but subjective malfunctions of body image which are direct product of malfunctions in the image of personality (self). People are not getting eating disorders because of dieting/pressure on the body, but because of pressure on 'self'.

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:shocked:
Did you have an eating disorder in the past ? Do you even know how it is ? I can't believe what I'm seeing right now.
OF COURSE, strict dieting can cause eating disorders. It's...logical. You say it's about the pressure on the "self", and yeah, that's right, but what does people do to solve this pressure on the "self" ? They impact a pressure on the body (extreme dieting) which can develop into an eating disorder. Of course, there is a mental part in it. But the mental part is not something genetic, it's not something you are "either born with it or not". The mental part can develop over the years because of extreme dieting, and that's a fact. F.A.CT.
You never experienced an eating disorder (or a mental illness) and it shows.

[email protected] said:

They have parents, don't they?

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Yeah, and suicidal teens have parents too, don't they ? Teenagers and children are not stupid, they know how to hide things from their parents. Teenagers with mental/eating disorders/illnessess are maybe sick, but they are not stupid, and they know how to hide things from their parents. Morever, as mentioned by another poster, parents can be factor in the eating disorder of their children as well.

Baron Vladimir said:

I agree. But from my knowledge on that topic in both Yulia and Gracie cases, you need to blame parents in first. And only then coaches and wider skaters envirovment alongside with representative skating federations too. Coaches can maybe try to prevent that kind of illness (if they can notice it), but they are not the one who cause them directly. Its on ISU to educate coaches and figure skating community on that topic, but if skater's parents and society care more about medals (and to 'make a winners') than about health, nobody can help then.

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Hm, I don't agree at all here. Elite skaters barely see their parents and spend 7 to 8 hours with their coaches per day. The parents of course can be a factor, here I agree. But saying the parents are to blame is..so strange. Maybe the parents are not even aware ?
And YES OF COURSE, coaches can be the ones causing them directly. If a coach, with who you spend most of your time, is telling you to lose weight all the time and make you follow a diet, or control your weight, then it might becomes an eating disorder and it has nothing to do with parents (even if they should always be super attentive in my opinion), it's on the coach.
Of course, not everything is always about the coach tho. Sometimes, parents can be a bit too much, and when they are hungry for medals, they can take drastic measures, unfortunately.

Did anyone watch the Russian talk show that featured Anna, Sasha, and Alena after Russian Nats? Assuming the translation is accurate, the host asked them if Eteri limits what types of food they can eat over the holidays. The girls said no, but they'll be weighed after the holidays.

Why weigh young girls who should be going through puberty and who look at as if they their bodyfat percentage is in the single digits?

Baron Vladimir said:

I agree. But from my knowledge on that topic in both Yulia and Gracie cases, you need to 'blame' parents in first. And only then coaches and wider skaters envirovment alongside with representative skating federations too. Coaches can maybe try to prevent that kind of illness (if they can notice it), but they are not the one who cause them directly. Its on ISU to educate coaches and figure skating community on that topic, but when skater's parents and society care more about medals (and to 'make a winners') than about health, like they do, nobody can help then except skater's own mental/psychological set or relevant sports psychologist/therapist.

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But do not add to the problem by praising the dieting, which Eteri did with Yulia. And did nothing as Yulia's weight went dangerously low - ard 37 kg, BMI 15.
If Eteri is a coach in North America or at least US, making comments like she did, there would have been public outcry.

Remember, US is where a gymnast died from anorexia. Hence I think is why Rafael was told at seminars to refrain from calling students 'fat', which was what happened to Christy Henrich

Sam-Skwantch said:

Personally I’ve always felt that guys suffer from unhealthy diets and body issues the most on the whole ...

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Do you really think that? Are little boys taught from childhood on that skinny is good and skinnier is better. (You can never be too thin or too rich -- Wallis Simpson.)

Granted, a middleweight might want to train down to 68 kilos so he can compete as a welterweight at the Olympics.

thedude said:

Did anyone watch the Russian talk show that featured Anna, Sasha, and Alena after Russian Nats? Assuming the translation is accurate, the host asked them if Eteri limits what types of food they can eat over the holidays. The girls said no, but they'll be weighed after the holidays.

Why weigh young girls who should be going through puberty and who look at as if they their bodyfat percentage is in the single digits?

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It’s pretty common for elite athletes to monitor their weight. I guess you could look at it in a negative way if you were inclined to but its going to be what they do with the results that matters. Keep in mind a lot of good can come from monitoring weight in a healthy way. I’m making no assumptions here.

I weigh myself daily and adjust my diet accordingly because I am extremely active. It’s a very useful tool in maximizing my output. I don’t know...I find it a little unhealthy to always assume the worst with monitoring weight. At that age it’s up to the parents and family physicians to address health concerns. Not really much I can offer other than to share that I regularly do weigh myself and not only that compare with other people. We’re open about it and have regular discussions with each other that are rather frank. Well...Snapchat convos count right

Teenage growth is a strange thing that’s probably best left free of speculation. Just my opinion though.

Mathman said:

Do you really think that? Are little boys taught from childhood on that skinny is good and skinnier is better. (You can never be too thin or too rich -- Wallis Simpson.)

Granted, a middleweight might want to train down to 68 kilos so he can compete as a welterweight at the Olympics.

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Yes but largely because it’s likley just as common among men (figure skaters) and flies much lower under the radar. Much less speculation and discussion on the matter. Ymmv

dobrevaria said:

Yeah, and suicidal teens have parents too, don't they ? Teenagers and children are not stupid, they know how to hide things from their parents. Teenagers with mental/eating disorders/illnessess are maybe sick, but they are not stupid, and they know how to hide things from their parents.

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Sorry, but this is demagogy. "Virgin suicides" argument is from a parallel universe. We are not talking about what's going on in teenagers' minds. We are talking about what they eat, what they weight and whether they have a serious medical condition. All those things are quite visible. Once again, if the chance of getting anorexia or bulimia, or whatever diet related condition were 50%+ which was shown by actual situations with other children there would be a serious criminal investigation - not only parents' outcry. In fact, there is just one case of a pair dancer who developed anorexia. And those who followed it remember that it was a combination of own and parents' ambitions, critique from a partner plus the position of the coach. If we talk about Eteri the only fact that people use is Yulia's admitting her eating disorder. But I cannot remember that she said that she developed it during her time with Eteri. What I remember is her gaining weight after she left and then suddenly losing at least 10 kilos. It happened with Urmanov. What does Eteri have to do with it? Where are facts about her skaters, any of them, having eating disorders?

dobrevaria said:

Elite skaters barely see their parents and spend 7 to 8 hours with their coaches per day. The parents of course can be a factor, here I agree. But saying the parents are to blame is..so strange. Maybe the parents are not even aware ?
And YES OF COURSE, coaches can be the ones causing them directly. If a coach, with who you spend most of your time, is telling you to lose weight all the time and make you follow a diet, or control your weight, then it might becomes an eating disorder and it has nothing to do with parents (even if they should always be super attentive in my opinion), it's on the coach.
Of course, not everything is always about the coach tho. Sometimes, parents can be a bit too much, and when they are hungry for medals, they can take drastic measures, unfortunately.

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Also, for elite athletes (or elite musicians or artists, or elite kid anything), the coach BECOMES a surrogate PARENT.

Much less time is spent with parents (breakfast/dinner if the kid's lucky) than with the coach. Even when practicing independently (homework), it still means many daily hours of following prior directions set by the coach.

It's the coach that constantly lives inside the kid's mind, not parents. As a result, for a child who spends almost every waking hour with her couch, her coach becomes at least as close and psychologically important as her parents, if not more so.

So, yeah, "don't they have parents?" - they do, they are called "coaches" in elite sports setting. The coach acts as a surrogate parent and caretaker, and should not shirk that responsibility.

With great power comes great responsibility - the coach has great power over her kids.

thedude said:

Did anyone watch the Russian talk show that featured Anna, Sasha, and Alena after Russian Nats? Assuming the translation is accurate, the host asked them if Eteri limits what types of food they can eat over the holidays. The girls said no, but they'll be weighed after the holidays.

Why weigh young girls who should be going through puberty and who look at as if they their bodyfat percentage is in the single digits?

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It's pressure and body shaming, pure and simple. It's wrong and unhealthy.

thedude said:

Did anyone watch the Russian talk show that featured Anna, Sasha, and Alena after Russian Nats? Assuming the translation is accurate, the host asked them if Eteri limits what types of food they can eat over the holidays. The girls said no, but they'll be weighed after the holidays.

Why weigh young girls who should be going through puberty and who look at as if they their bodyfat percentage is in the single digits?

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Because all elite athletes are weighted regularly. Weekly or even daily.
Because a weight increase could lead to falls and injuries, including stuff like stress fractures.
If a coach does not monitor the weight of their students, specially underage ones, it is a very bad coach.

In short, suppose Sasha feasts on cake and fast food during the weekend and gains 0,5kg. This will impact her jumps (not my assumption, tons of interviews of athletes confirming it). If Eteri, on Monday, looks at her and says "go train quads without weighting, you look as thin as always", she would be risking Sasha's health actually. And no, monitoring weight does not necessarely mean the kids will be subjected to a couple of days without eating, it more likely means their training will be adapted - to start with, in our example, to see if Sasha can actually jump safely before training quads.

moriel said:

Because all elite athletes are weighted regularly. Weekly or even daily.
Because a weight increase could lead to falls and injuries, including stuff like stress fractures.
If a coach does not monitor the weight of their students, specially underage ones, it is a very bad coach.

In short, suppose Sasha feasts on cake and fast food during the weekend and gains 0,5kg. This will impact her jumps (not my assumption, tons of interviews of athletes confirming it). If Eteri, on Monday, looks at her and says "go train quads without weighting, you look as thin as always", she would be risking Sasha's health actually. And no, monitoring weight does not necessarely mean the kids will be subjected to a couple of days without eating, it more likely means their training will be adapted - to start with, in our example, to see if Sasha can actually jump safely before training quads.

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That may be so, but when the host asked them if Eteri limits what types of food they can eat over the holidays, the girls said no; but they'll be weighed after the holidays.

So in effect, it's okay to eat junk (or use powdered drinks as junky sustenance). Instead of giving sound nutritional advice, Eteri will weigh them when they come back.

Does that strike you like a healthy desirable practice for impressionable young girls?

dobrevaria said:

Did you have an eating disorder in the past ? Do you even know how it is ? I can't believe what I'm seeing right now.
OF COURSE, strict dieting can cause eating disorders. It's...logical. You say it's about the pressure on the "self", and yeah, that's right, but what does people do to solve this pressure on the "self" ? They impact a pressure on the body (extreme dieting) which can develop into an eating disorder. Of course, there is a mental part in it. But the mental part is not something genetic, it's not something you are "either born with it or not". The mental part can develop over the years because of extreme dieting, and that's a fact. F.A.CT.
You never experienced an eating disorder (or a mental illness) and it shows.

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EDIT: I just wanted to say i think you didn't get what i was talking about... Which was not about Eteri at all... I found your comments rude and uneducated (and no, i didn't have eating disorders but i studied them because psychology is my education)... And i will say again - to put someone on a strictly diet doesn't mean he/she will develop a disorder. That is a nonsence. If that is a truth, people wouldn't use all sort of diets to actually improve their health...There is nothing wrong to eat a little and to use powderfood (Baobab, Moringa, Spirulina etc) instead of meat, cakes or 'junk food'... A lot of people i know are actually having eating habits like that, because it planned out as much more healthier for them...

dobrevaria said:

Did you have an eating disorder in the past ? Do you even know how it is ? I can't believe what I'm seeing right now.
OF COURSE, strict dieting can cause eating disorders. It's...logical. You say it's about the pressure on the "self", and yeah, that's right, but what does people do to solve this pressure on the "self" ? They impact a pressure on the body (extreme dieting) which can develop into an eating disorder. Of course, there is a mental part in it. But the mental part is not something genetic, it's not something you are "either born with it or not". The mental part can develop over the years because of extreme dieting, and that's a fact. F.A.CT.
You never experienced an eating disorder (or a mental illness) and it shows.

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I agree with you on the whole, but anorexia is genetic. Check out the heritability studies. It’s why there are dozens of “wannarexics” and crash dieters to every real anoretic. And I am a recovered anoretic (I dealt with an eating disorder for at least a decade).

As for male skaters, I know Yagudin has revealed he dealt with bulimia during his competitive career, and he’s not the only one. Gymnastics and figure skating are well known for high rates of binge-purge behaviour due to the pressure to make weight. I vaguely recall this being talked about in the ‘90s, when I was a kid, when I borrowed my parents’ copy of Reviving Ophelia.

[email protected] said:

Sorry, but this is demagogy. "Virgin suicides" argument is from a parallel universe. We are not talking about what's going on in teenagers' minds. We are talking about what they eat, what they weight and whether they have a serious medical condition. All those things are quite visible. Once again, if the chance of getting anorexia or bulimia, or whatever diet related condition were 50%+ which was shown by actual situations with other children there would be a serious criminal investigation - not only parents' outcry. In fact, there is just one case of a pair dancer who developed anorexia. And those who followed it remember that it was a combination of own and parents' ambitions, critique from a partner plus the position of the coach. If we talk about Eteri the only fact that people use is Yulia's admitting her eating disorder. But I cannot remember that she said that she developed it during her time with Eteri. What I remember is her gaining weight after she left and then suddenly losing at least 10 kilos. It happened with Urmanov. What does Eteri have to do with it? Where are facts about her skaters, any of them, having eating disorders?

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I thought it's been established many eons ago, dont try pinning this on Urmanov.
If anything it was Eteri's own statements which gave away that the issue started from her.

Yulia's interview in 2017. She was battling anorexia for some time "not just for one year, or two, or three"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4285781

Eteri in 2014 proudly saying Yulia can exist just on powdered diet
https://www.google.com/amp/s/aletei...bling-trend-among-olympic-figure-skaters/amp/

And Zagitova's famous 'Just close your mouth and dont eat' statement
https://sputniknews.com/sport/201803221062800928-russia-skating-prodigy-zagitova/
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?71496-Sad-Article-about-Zagitova-s-Eating-Habits

eaglehelang said:

I suppose $125,000 all in, including off ice trainer fees?

Hmm, Orser charges per hour. From previous reports, Libet gets 30 min one on one with Orser. Same as the junior skater Shingo Nishiyama.
Then, there are classes with Tracy Wilson, Ghislain Briand, off ice training.

I would reckon the seniors like Yuzuru, Javier get 1 hour one on one.

Though I find it a bit odd Lilibet didnt go back to Eteri soon after OG 2014. She had visa problems getting into Canada

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The ice sessions are 50 minutes long at TCC. I read Evgenia works for one session with Tracy and one with Brian. The ice time goes until the late evening so one can skate as much as they want. It may vary skater to skater and what they are working on.

Sorry what was this thread about?

Casual said:

That may be so, but when the host asked them if Eteri limits what types of food they can eat over the holidays, the girls said no; but they'll be weighed after the holidays.

So in effect, it's okay to eat junk (or use powdered drinks as junky sustenance). Instead of giving sound nutritional advice, Eteri will weigh them when they come back.

Does that strike you like a healthy desirable practice for impressionable young girls?

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You say it like Eteri is a nutritionist or a doctor. I'm pretty sure there is someone else giving them dietary advice.
But of course I understand your point - whatever Eteri does is wrong to you. If she gave them advice on what to eat, people here would still bash her.

moriel said:

Because all elite athletes are weighted regularly. Weekly or even daily.
Because a weight increase could lead to falls and injuries, including stuff like stress fractures.
If a coach does not monitor the weight of their students, specially underage ones, it is a very bad coach.

In short, suppose Sasha feasts on cake and fast food during the weekend and gains 0,5kg. This will impact her jumps (not my assumption, tons of interviews of athletes confirming it). If Eteri, on Monday, looks at her and says "go train quads without weighting, you look as thin as always", she would be risking Sasha's health actually. And no, monitoring weight does not necessarely mean the kids will be subjected to a couple of days without eating, it more likely means their training will be adapted - to start with, in our example, to see if Sasha can actually jump safely before training quads.

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I actually don't have a problem with weight check-ins if done right (never in front of others and no scolding after a weigh in). The sport does require monitoring weight and potentially making adjustments to diet if needed. Personally, weigh ins should be blind to the skater (and coach) ideally and only monitored by a dietician or health professional (but that's unlikely, just what I would hope for so that children aren't getting attached to certain numbers and the coaches are pressuring them to achieve certain numbers that might be unreasonable).

The idea that a 14-year-old girl who gains .5 kg is "risking her health" is outrageous. Weight fluctuates about this much or more due to hormones and water weight without changes to body composition. But more importantly, 14 year old girls who have not completed puberty are expected to be gaining weight. They aren't done growing. To imply that any body change is "risky" or damaging to them is to imply that normal growth and development is dangerous. And that's exactly what fuels eating disorders. These girls are expected to gain weight at some point in the future unless they are purposefully depriving themselves of necessary calories or suppressing puberty. It should be about being the healthiest one can be and adjusting to any natural/expected weight gain.

I have real concerns with the way Eteri handles weight issues. She's not alone by any means since its a problem for most people in the sport but that doesn't make it okay. I really disliked the part of the documentary when Alina mentions that she lost 400 grams because she said it in a way that sounded like she was competing with Zhenya when neither should know the other's weight or be talking about it, especially on camera. Weight and the weigh-ins should be private and not discussed with teammates.

Metis said:

I agree with you on the whole, but anorexia is genetic. Check out the heritability studies. It’s why there are dozens of “wannarexics” and crash dieters to every real anoretic. And I am a recovered anoretic (I dealt with an eating disorder for at least a decade).

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I wasn't speaking about anorexia specifically, but more of eating disorders in general. But well, I didn't know this information, so thank you. I will do more research on the subject !