Quads. Why or why not? | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Quads. Why or why not?

oatmella

陈巍
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
In figure skating, the general public/non hardcore fans are not really aware of the junior skaters. I wasn’t aware of Nathan until 2017 Nationals even though I had followed 2014 Nationals somewhat closely.

But in other sports - some younger stars get attention. Like Sky Brown - who is amazing! I just discovered her from DWTS Juniors - which I started watching because of Adam. And her mentor Alan was Mirai’s partner when she was on the show!
 

Kittosuni

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2012
The worst thing to happen with these ladies who are gunning for quads and triple axels if they can't consistently land them is to downgrade to triple jumps.

Jumps that are deemed easier to them psychologically and physically.

Because their standards have been so high, the probability of landing these "easier" jumps are pretty good. Thus resulting to good results.
 

elysium

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
I am afraid I disagree, I think the sport is bleeding viewers in the US of A because of the lack of well skated clean artistic programs that incorporate well skated clean artistic jumps.

The average viewer can’t even count rotations in the air, let alone get excited about them:) ETA: *I* can’t even count them, and I spend time on FS boards ;)

But I have traveled far from the health factors that the OP started with....
It's ok to have different opinions. I am only pondering over the situation for ice dancing, which I have followed a bit the past cycle. There is so much more politicking there, since the abilities of the teams are so close. And I don't want the other disciplines to go into that direction. Anyway, this is indeed very OTT.
 

elysium

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
The worst thing to happen with these ladies who are gunning for quads and triple axels if they can't consistently land them is to downgrade to triple jumps.

Jumps that are deemed easier to them psychologically and physically.

Because their standards have been so high, the probability of landing these "easier" jumps are pretty good. Thus resulting to good results.

Agree, I think to be able to keep the quads into the senior age is probably not even the most important reason to train them, but to not loose the triples once becoming older.
 

gonewiththewind25

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
The worst thing to happen with these ladies who are gunning for quads and triple axels if they can't consistently land them is to downgrade to triple jumps.

Jumps that are deemed easier to them psychologically and physically.

Because their standards have been so high, the probability of landing these "easier" jumps are pretty good. Thus resulting to good results.

I disagree. There can be a lot of injuries, strain on the body and it can also lead to a loss of confidence in a skater. Personally, I don't find the risk worth it but I respect the women who are trying it.
 
Joined
Jul 3, 2018
I actually agree with both sides of that argument, yes they are dangerous and I personally don’t agree with training them, but only time will tell if we’re all being over protective. They do otherwise serve the purpose of making sure the triples have good height and ice coverage, which is a bonus. What would be ideal would be to fix the technique now while the quad is there and easier for the ladies to land, that way if growth, injury or anything in between stops the revolution capabilities, the height and solid technique will outlast it. Sadly that is not what is happening and it’s frustrating because they are more than capable.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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United-States
I actually agree with both sides of that argument, yes they are dangerous and I personally don’t agree with training them, but only time will tell if we’re all being over protective. They do otherwise serve the purpose of making sure the triples have good height and ice coverage, which is a bonus. What would be ideal would be to fix the technique now while the quad is there and easier for the ladies to land, that way if growth, injury or anything in between stops the revolution capabilities, the height and solid technique will outlast it. Sadly that is not what is happening and it’s frustrating because they are more than capable

I think the whole technique thing is becoming a bit over played. Many of the skaters people throw out as having the best technique are often the most injury plagued. Yuna competed like what...7 times after she won the Olympics due to injury and had to stop doing the loop altogether. Liza has certainly had her ups and downs. Same for Yuzuru who has missed a lot of events with injury.

I mean sure...give the skaters with the best technique the best GOE when they can land their jumps cleanly but not everyone needs to go that route. There are other acceptable ways. There isn’t the best technique and every other way is the worst. In fact there is probably someone who could mount a good case for the dangers of reducing the acceptable prerotation degrees, etc.

Personally I think Sasha is one of the most solid jumpers we’ve seen in a while and her technique is beyond acceptable to me and most certainly to ISU standards. Go back and look at her jumps from 2016 and imagine if she can continue to improve at this rate!

https://youtu.be/SkSzV7rWdCE

People keep saying she needs to work on her presentation and jump technique but she clearly has and will continue to do so. Honestly watching that performance I doubt anyone predicted the trajectory she would take. YMMV
 
Joined
Jul 3, 2018
I think the whole technique thing is becoming a bit over played. Many of the skaters people throw out as having the best technique are often the most injury plagued. Yuna competed like what...7 times after she won the Olympics due to injury and had to stop doing the loop altogether. Liza has certainly had her ups and downs. Same for Yuzuru who has missed a lot of events with injury.

I mean sure...give the skaters with the best technique the best GOE when they can land their jumps cleanly but not everyone needs to go that route. There are other acceptable ways. There isn’t the best technique and every other way is the worst. In fact there is probably someone who could mount a good case for the dangers of reducing the acceptable prerotation degrees, etc.

Personally I think Sasha is one of the most solid jumpers we’ve seen in a while and her technique is beyond acceptable to me and most certainly to ISU standards. Go back and look at her jumps from 2016 and imagine if she can continue to improve at this rate!

https://youtu.be/SkSzV7rWdCE

People keep saying she needs to work on her presentation and jump technique but she clearly has and will continue to do so. Honestly watching that performance I doubt anyone predicted the trajectory she would take. YMMV

Sorry to be rude but that’s completely absurd, you are telling me that because these athletes have openly talked about their injuries that they are the only ones with serious injury? That is ridiculous. I don’t know about you but I’m more than aware of many ladies who have come out of that same coaching situation with serious injuries. Alina’s broken leg, her knees that are constantly taped up, her current swollen ankle, Evgenia’s broken foot and continuing back injury and Yulia’s hip and back injuries. This also doesn’t take into account the fact that the statement is literally comparing adult bodies with children!

I simply can not agree that technique doesn’t matter and that there are many ways to do the same jump. No there are not, that’s why each jump has a set of rules. Again just because the judging system is corrupt and rewarding incorrect technique, that doesn’t mean it’s a trend anyone wants to see continue or should be supporting.

I think it’s important to put your own personal bias and favourites aside sometimes and look at the situation for what it is. It’s a regression of technique being rewarded and the push for elements that are taxing on young bodies. You think the injuries seen in some skaters are bad? That specific coaching team haven’t seen a single skater well into adulthood, but when they do we can have a serious conversation about technique equalling injury.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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Sorry to be rude but that’s completely absurd, you are telling me that because these athletes have openly talked about their injuries that they are the only ones with serious injury?

I didn’t say anything of the sort.

*snip*
I simply can not agree that technique doesn’t matter and that there are many ways to do the same jump. No there are not, that’s why each jump has a set of rules. Again just because the judging system is corrupt and rewarding incorrect technique, that doesn’t mean it’s a trend anyone want to see continue or should be supporting.

Again...I never said technique doesn’t matter. I said it should be rewarded in GOE. I’ve had coaches show me different techniques that they use with different students in their own group. Body type, strength, capability etc can all factor in. Not to mention the types of entries and toe picking methods. There is not one correct technique and skaters execute differing techniques to varying degrees of success. Anna and Sasha have the same coach and have different jump traits for the coaches to work with and you get different techniques.

I think it’s important to put your own personal bias and favourites aside sometimes and look at the situation for what it is. It’s a regression of technique being rewarded and the push for elements that are taxing on young bodies. You think the injuries seen in some skaters are bad? That specific coaching team haven’t seen a single skater well into adulthood, but when they do we can have a serious conversation about technique equalling injury.

I certainly do see a bias in this statement so let’s just not go there. We can be civil and see things for what they are. I like Sasha but I have other favorites that outrank her btw she’s just really fun to support ;). I honestly believe people have just gone off the deep end with hyper critical breakdowns of jumps in general and of techniques to the point of near absurdity.

I noticed you didn’t comment on the video I posted showing the improvements of Sasha’s technique in just under three years. Not just jumping either but maybe I’m just being bias and there isn’t any content there to discuss. :confused2:
 
Joined
Jul 3, 2018
I didn’t say anything of the sort.



Again...I never said technique doesn’t matter. I said it should be rewarded in GOE. I’ve had coaches show me different techniques that they use with different students in their own group. Body type, strength, capability etc can all factor in. Not to mention the types of entries and toe picking methods. There is not one correct technique and skaters execute differing techniques to varying degrees of success. Anna and Sasha have the same coach and have different jump traits for the coaches to work with and you get different techniques.



I certainly do see a bias in this statement so let’s just not go there, We can be civil and see thingscgorcehat they are. I honestly believe people have just gone off the deep end with hyper critical breakdowns of jumps and techniques to the point a point of near absurdity.

I noticed you didn’t comment on the video I posted showing the improvements of Sasha’s technique in just under three years. Not just jumping either but maybe I’m just boring bias and there isn’t any content there to discuss. :confused2:

Well considering you only mentioned skaters who are adults and have good technique (for the most part) I decided to take what you were indicating with that stament as what you meant. If you are happy to admit that their technique is not the cause of injury but more a general wearing out process caused by a very competitive sport then I would be happy to hear it? Not mentioning those coaching teams took steps to prevent further injury and avoid discomfort allowing for a long successful career. So yes the technique should be aimed for, and I retain my belief it is the safest and most accurate.

I don’t need to watch the compilation video, I have been following her progress. I still see the same problems, her edges are not what I am concerned about either and yes full blade picking is ugly and frustrating but it’s not where my main issue lies with the technique. What I am concerned about is the loop entry into her toe jumps. Sure they all have their own little quirks but all the ladies from that coaching situation are pretty much jumping loop variations. It’s not correct, it’s not acceptable and it’s not being taught to suit a certain body type, it’s being taught to cheat the system. It isn’t being adjusted when they grow or sustain injury, hence Evgenia leaving. Loops are taxing on the back and repetition of this jump and essentially using it as the take off for all the toe jumps will result in injury. It’s as simple as that.

If you are offended by facts I am sorry, but it is what it is. This coaching team have not seen a single skater into adulthood, because the technique being taught is flawed and it’s impossible to repeat and pull off without injury or inconsistencies once the girls grow up.

I also don’t understand why you think a jump with incorrect take off should be correctly classified? For example a lutz with a loop entry? How is that a lutz if the toe picking foot is still on the ice by the time the skater is facing the opposite direction? That looks like a loop to me?

The truth hurts, and your faves aren’t the only ones to be subject to this, mine are too.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
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Dec 29, 2013
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United-States
I don’t need to watch the compilation video.

:laugh: It’s not a compilation video. I figured since you were discussing her progress and development of her technique it would add to the discussion. :giveup:


You seem to be making this personal and projecting arguments on to me I’ve never made for some reason :shrug:
 

Lunalovesskating

Moonbear power 🐻
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 3, 2018
funny thing... when you call Yuna's flip with an edge problem ... as a perfect one. says a lot)
Yuna did not have an edge problem on her Flip. She had a shallow inside edge, which was back then according to old ISU standards a perfect Flip. If you watch the old ISU jump technique videos where they explain what each jump should look like the perfect Flip technique they showed was the shallow inside/straight edge Flip and the wrong Flip technique ISU showed was the deep inside edge Flip, because they said this technique causes too much pre and overrotation. That was back then. Since then ISU has deleted all these videos as their stance nowadays is a deep inside edge for a Flip. However, for old ISU standards Yuna's Flip was text book. Even Dick Button said her shallow inside edge/straight edge Flip was text book and the perfect edge for a Flip.
 
Joined
Jul 3, 2018
:laugh: It’s not a compilation video. I figured since you were discussing her progress and development of her technique it would add to the discussion. :giveup:


You seem to be making this personal and projecting arguments on to me I’ve never made for some reason :shrug:

I got round to watching it, it’s an old program, yes her flow is better, yes her speed is better, yes she has improved. That is what I would expect.

I’m sorry if you think this is a personal attack, but I just want to understand where the justification for the bad technique comes from? What am I missing that fans are not? Really I just want somebody to help me understand? :confused2:

Edit: Also to end my rambling about this. When one of the ladies can do a quad loop I will stop complaining about technique, because that can’t be cheated with a loop entry. It’s already a loop jump. And that would indicate to me that they have the ability to rotate their other quads if they were provided with the tools to correct their technique.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Yuna did not have an edge problem on her Flip. She had a shallow inside edge, which was back then according to old ISU standards a perfect Flip. If you watch the old ISU jump technique videos where they explain what each jump should look like the perfect Flip technique they showed was the shallow inside/straight edge Flip and the wrong Flip technique ISU showed was the deep inside edge Flip, because they said this technique causes too much pre and overrotation. That was back then. Since then ISU has deleted all these videos as their stance nowadays is a deep inside edge for a Flip. However, for old ISU standards Yuna's Flip was text book. Even Dick Button said her shallow inside edge/straight edge Flip was text book and the perfect edge for a Flip.

But several people here argue that if something is ok by ISU standards, that still don't make it ok.
 

dobrevaria

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
I think I may be one of the least optimitic and overjoyed person out there regarding the young ladies doing quads. I want to support (and I've already a big soft spot for Shcherbakova, unfortunately :( ) but I just can't see them skating like that in a few years, or even skating at all. Their technique is wrong (yes, wrong) for me (because it's really short-term) and while it's impressive to see for example Trusova doing quads after quads, I don't think it's really healthy to let young body structure handle that much. It would be great if people could stop their narrative of "well, we don't know the effects of quads on bodies yet". No, we DO KNOW the effects. When you jump a quad, the impact is 8 to 10 times your own weight. I find it puzzling people find that little girls with a frail body structure doing that again and again is good for their skeletons. Did people forget already what happened to Nathan Chen in 2016 with his hip?
Morever, I think we forgot that Eteri never had a skater who lasted a long time, so I don't see how it's going to be different here. But, oh well.
I'm less worried for Alina tho, since she is going through (or have already finished?) her puberty. I don't see her doing a quad in competition anytime soon, but I think if she masters it, she can maybe keep it. I hope so.
 
Joined
Jul 3, 2018
I think I may be one of the least optimitic and overjoyed person out there regarding the young ladies doing quads. I want to support (and I've already a big soft spot for Shcherbakova, unfortunately :( ) but I just can't see them skating like that in a few years, or even skating at all. Their technique is wrong (yes, wrong) for me (because it's really short-term) and while it's impressive to see for example Trusova doing quads after quads, I don't think it's really healthy to let young body structure handle that much. It would be great if people could stop their narrative of "well, we don't know the effects of quads on bodies yet", no we do know the effects. When you jump a quad, the impact is 8 to 10 your own weight. I find it puzzling people find that little girls with a frail body structure doing that again and again is good for their skeletons. Did people forget already what happened to Nathan Chen in 2016 with his hip?
Morever, I think we forgot that the Eteri never had a skater who lasted a long time, so I don't see how it's going to be different here. But, oh well.
I'm less worried for Alina tho, since she is going through (or have already finished?) her puberty. I don't see her doing a quad in competition anytime soon, but I think if she masters it, she can maybe keep it. I hope so.

It is sad when you strip it back to that. Regardless of technique or whatever, the likelihood of them having long careers is very slim. Men naturally have high bone density and muscle mass, hence the quads. Ladies and young girls not so much sadly. It’s a real shame, at least we can enjoy them whilst they are skating and healthy though if this is the route they decide to take for their careers.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
It is sad when you strip it back to that. Regardless of technique or whatever, the likelihood of them having long careers is very slim. Men naturally have high bone density and muscle mass, hence the quads. Ladies and young girls not so much sadly. It’s a real shame, at least we can enjoy them whilst they are skating and healthy though if this is the route they decide to take for their careers.

I somewhat don't really understand the value of "long career" and why people are so in need of it.
Long career means more injuries, and more missed opportunities (such as pursuing education in a field that is not related to sport, quite commonly). If i had a child at elite level skating, i wouldnt want this kid to keep skating way into late 20s, and for this reason i cannot want it for my favourite skaters. I also think that it is pretty awkward when a skater stays for too long, and then ends up injustly propped based on reputation rather than actual skating. Pretty sure that while the skaters i love maybe won't keep skating for 10 years from now, but then there will be also other awesome skaters to cheer for.
 
Joined
Jul 3, 2018
Oh, there is a ton of "bad judging" and "my definition of jump" back there in the thread.

Personal definition doesn’t count, that’s an opinion until the ISU write it into their rules. But bad judging is definitely separate to what the ISU rules are. Hence why it is bad judging , the judging is not following the guidelines laid out to them by the ISU as a whole. Judging should not be used as a mean to define what a good jump is unless it is also in line with what the ISU rules state.
 
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