Quads. Why or why not?

moriel said:

I somewhat don't really understand the value of "long career" and why people are so in need of it.
Long career means more injuries, and more missed opportunities (such as pursuing education in a field that is not related to sport, quite commonly). If i had a child at elite level skating, i wouldnt want this kid to keep skating way into late 20s, and for this reason i cannot want it for my favourite skaters. I also think that it is pretty awkward when a skater stays for too long, and then ends up injustly propped based on reputation rather than actual skating. Pretty sure that while the skaters i love maybe won't keep skating for 10 years from now, but then there will be also other awesome skaters to cheer for.

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Um, skaters with longer careers usually have had less serious injuries, or they'd have been forced to retire early? Of course if you skate for 10 years you'll accumulate more injuries over time, but that probably also means your body was well enough to skate for 10 years, as opposed to breaking down a few years in. Skaters also always have the option to retire for non-injury related reasons if they want to pursue education or whatever - skaters who skated for a long time chose to do so, either out of a love for skating or because they considered it to be their best life path at the time.

I appreciate skaters with long careers because although not all skaters develop maturity, skill, or a wonderful narrative over time, many of them do. I enjoy Yuzuru's spins now a lot more than early in his career. I love how Kaetlyn was encouraged to keep skating and eventually became an Olympic medalist and world champion. Patrick's Hallelujah is one of my favorite programs because to me it's a culmination of all his glory and struggles, laid out frankly and with a lot of love. I don't want Sui/Han to continue to accumulate more injuries but if Sui's legs would allow her to keep skating, I'd love to see what else those two can keep giving us. Their programs are pure art to my eyes and you can tell they'd love to keep producing and giving as well.

moriel said:

I somewhat don't really understand the value of "long career" and why people are so in need of it.
Long career means more injuries, and more missed opportunities (such as pursuing education in a field that is not related to sport, quite commonly). If i had a child at elite level skating, i wouldnt want this kid to keep skating way into late 20s, and for this reason i cannot want it for my favourite skaters. I also think that it is pretty awkward when a skater stays for too long, and then ends up injustly propped based on reputation rather than actual skating. Pretty sure that while the skaters i love maybe won't keep skating for 10 years from now, but then there will be also other awesome skaters to cheer for.

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Fair enough, that’s your opinion. But if skating is their source of income then they don’t need an education or another job. It is their job. But many do study whilst skating. I think you have to appreciate what years of refinement does for a skater to appreciate the concept of a long career. It’s not about always winning gold. It’s about the performance and seeing your favourite skater succeed year after year. And if they are taken care of, have a good team and use well established, safe technique they won’t stand too much of a risk of serious injury, obviously not including freak accidents. I’m not a fan of the whole figure skating is a young persons sport attitude and I like to see my favourite skaters grow and continue doing what they love and have dedicated their life to. Not have to give it up due to injury from pushing too hard or complacent bad technique. That is not to say that the approach is right for everyone as some don’t continue to love what they do, but others do and that is the point of a long career. If they aren’t finished giving back to this sport and allowing us to watch them perform, why should we expect them to pack it in and move on? I also think that reputation would be better referred to as prestige and reliability. If you know that person has a good chance of delivering and has done for the past 10 years, why would you instantly drop them for the younger newer model that may only have a 2 year career at the top of the podium. I hope that makes sense, sorry for rambling.

moriel said:

I somewhat don't really understand the value of "long career" and why people are so in need of it.

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I can't speak for everyone but I will share with you my personal point of view. As an example I would give Virtue/Moir. I know they are ice dancers but longetivity in figure skating is a topic, concerning all disciplines. In 2010 they won the Olympic gold with 2 iconic skates, both artistically and technically. In 2014 they got silver in Sochi. One would say that they got it all and there wasn't a reason for them not to give up skating and do something else. Still, if we compare their skating in 2017-2018 to previous years, there's a big difference. I am speaking more in terms of artistry, the feeling they transmit while performing. For me the real artistry comes when the skaters step on the ice and don't show their hesitation but they just perform. And in my opinion, this comes only with a lot of experience - therefore a lot of years of competing.

I realize this is too much to ask from an athlete though. When they are in their prime time, they concentrate only on winning, because this is a sport and that's the goal. I appreciate all the youngsters, who nowadays are technical prodigies and win competitions. I can't even find words to properly describe my respect towards skaters like Sasha Trusova because anything I would say, won't be enough. However, I don't think that a skater at the age of 14-15 has come to its full potential. Technically maybe yes. But not in terms of artistry. Even someone like Anna Shcherbakova or Alena Kostornaya haven't reached that level yet. As someone, who watches figure skating not only because of the jumps and the wow effect, I want to see a skater evolve over the years. To say - look, back in 20xx he/she was that good/bad and now he/she skates on a completely different, more mature level.

I think your confusion on this topic comes from the idea that longetivity means for a skater to be older and still winning everything. Right now this can't really function. But not winning can't prevent me from not enjoying the skaters. Carolina Kostner may have had disastrous free skates but her SP at Worlds this year is the program, I will always come back watching.

moriel said:

I somewhat don't really understand the value of "long career" and why people are so in need of it.
Long career means more injuries, and more missed opportunities (such as pursuing education in a field that is not related to sport, quite commonly). If i had a child at elite level skating, i wouldnt want this kid to keep skating way into late 20s, and for this reason i cannot want it for my favourite skaters. I also think that it is pretty awkward when a skater stays for too long, and then ends up injustly propped based on reputation rather than actual skating. Pretty sure that while the skaters i love maybe won't keep skating for 10 years from now, but then there will be also other awesome skaters to cheer for.

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Uh. Okay.

So you think that being a Tara Lipinski is better than being a Michelle Kwan ? It's your opinion, and I respect it, but it's the first time I've heard something so strange. Skaters skating for not a long time will not become legend. Of course, not everyone wants to become a legend. But having some medals during a span of two years is not memorable, and people will not talk about you in several decades. Morever, when a skater skates for a long time, he/she is going to develop more as well. Like, for example, Carolina Kostner. Her artistry before is nothing (like really nothing) to what she can do on the ice right now. Skaters having long career can miss opportunities, but when you're a legend, and when you really love the sport and competing, I do think it's worth it. I just don't understand this mindset.

Imagine if Yuzuru Hanyu had stopped his career in 2014, after his first gold medal at the Olympics ? His talent would have been totally wasted. He was already talented and strong in 2014, but he continued to develop, and that's why we had the privilege of seeing programs like Seimei, Ballade n°1, Hope & Legacy, Otonal & more. Yes, he had more injuries (a lot of them). Yes, he made sacrifices. But he is now a legend and considered (rightfully) the best skater of all times. He would not have this recognition if he had stopped just after Sochi.

If Trusova decides tomorrow to stop her career, then, for me at least, everything is going to waste. Yeah, she can do quads. Great. She was the first girl to do that, so people will at least remember her for that. But are people going to remember her programs ? Will she be considered a legend ? No. People will say "the girl who did the 4lz" and that's it.

Michelle Kwan for me is an excellent example for this. She didn't win the OGM, but who do we remember the most ? Michelle, or Tara ? Who left a legacy in this sport ? Who will be an icon for the present and future generations of skaters ?
I just don't understand your reasonning. Of course, I don't want my faves to be injured again and again. But time helps skaters developping as artists. Imagine if Javier Fernandez had stopped his career early on ? We would have missed fantastic skates from him. And most the times, skaters who skated for a short time will not be remembered. And if they are, everyone has still an impression of "discontinued path", for example, with Yulia Lipnitskaya. Everyone will remember her as the girl in red. She was the face of the 2014 Olympics and nobody can't take that from her. But I'm sure lots of people, including me, had the impression that's if it was possible, she could have done so much more. The impression that her talent was wasted.

Morever, we have to keep in mind that when a skater has a short career, it's most of the times not intentional, but because of various reasons : injuries, anorexia, mental health, personal issues, lack of good results, financial etc. It's rare to have a skater wanting to have a short career. Why would someone devote so much time of his life and make so much sacrifices if this person is not in it for the long run ?

Edit :

Morever :

I also think that it is pretty awkward when a skater stays for too long, and then ends up injustly propped based on reputation rather than actual skating.

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I don't understand this either. Skaters do get injustly propped up based on reputation, but it has nothing to do with longevity. Look at the PCS Zagitova got during the Olympics or the PCS Medvedeva got during her first senior season. They didn't have a long career back then (and still don't) and they still got high scores ; that's what we call politics and overscoring, but it has nothing to do with longevity.

dobrevaria said:

Yulia Lipnitskaya. Everyone will remember her as the girl in red. She was the face of the 2014 Olympics and nobody can't take that from her. But I'm sure lots of people, including me, had the impression that's if it was possible, she could have done so much more. The impression that her talent was tasted.

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I never was a fan of her but I am still hurting when I think about her last skate at Rostelecom. Seeing her evolving with that beautiful SP, which she made with Lambiel, made me think at the time that she was actually capable of so much more. This is the perfect example to show how sad it is to see that someone with potential has to end his career early.

I agree with esteticlove too. You worded that so well. How blessed we as fans would be to watch Alena grow and build her artistry. I can see her becoming one of the greats. The likes of Carolina Kostner will be remembered in history, not for a great feat of athleticism, but for the pure emotion and beauty she brings to the ice. How lucky we are to be here for her time, and how lucky we are that she continued to refine her craft and skate into her 30s.

laybackrelaxspinfast said:

Personal definition doesn’t count, that’s an opinion until the ISU write it into their rules. But bad judging is definitely separate to what the ISU rules are. Hence why it is bad judging , the judging is not following the guidelines laid out to them by the ISU as a whole. Judging should not be used as a mean to define what a good jump is unless it is also in line with what the ISU rules state.

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Exactly. So when you think that all the decisions of all the different tech panels who didn't call Trusova lutz and flip as a loop is actually bad judging, and not the judges applying the actual ISU rules. As all of 20+ diferent tech panels in Trusova's competitive history. I mean, it surely can't be your own personal definition of her jump? It must be that all the possible judges ISU has don't understand the rules then.

Baron Vladimir said:

Exactly. So when you think that all the decisions of all the different tech panels who didn't call Trusova lutz and flip as a loop is actually bad judging, and not the judges applying the actual ISU rules. As all of 20+ diferent tech panels in Trusova's competitive history. I mean, it surely can't be your own personal definition of her jump? It must be that all the possible judges ISU has don't understand the rules then.

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Sure let’s go with that. It’s not like anybody else is demonstrating a lutz from a forward take off or anything that we can use as an example. Politics.

Right from the horses mouth.
‘Cheated take-off
A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).’

Pleading ignorance is what the lovely tech panel are doing. I’m just calling it as I see it. :agree:

Anyway on that note. It doesn’t matter what I think. I’m not a judge and I don’t have the power to change anything. So it will be what it is. I’m just going to keep enjoying the sport and trying not to get too annoyed at the decisions of judges. Only time will tell how the sport progresses or regresses from here.

laybackrelaxspinfast said:

Sure let’s go with that. It’s not like anybody else is demonstrating a lutz from a forward take off or anything that we can use as an example. Politics.

Right from the horses mouth.
‘Cheated take-off
A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).’

Pleading ignorance is what the lovely tech panel are doing. I’m just calling it as I see it. :agree:

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When was the last time this rule was actually used!? I haven't seen a downgrade as a result of a forward takeoff yet.

laybackrelaxspinfast said:

Fair enough, that’s your opinion. But if skating is their source of income then they don’t need an education or another job. It is their job. But many do study whilst skating. I think you have to appreciate what years of refinement does for a skater to appreciate the concept of a long career. It’s not about always winning gold. It’s about the performance and seeing your favourite skater succeed year after year. And if they are taken care of, have a good team and use well established, safe technique they won’t stand too much of a risk of serious injury, obviously not including freak accidents. I’m not a fan of the whole figure skating is a young persons sport attitude and I like to see my favourite skaters grow and continue doing what they love and have dedicated their life to. Not have to give it up due to injury from pushing too hard or complacent bad technique. That is not to say that the approach is right for everyone as some don’t continue to love what they do, but others do and that is the point of a long career. If they aren’t finished giving back to this sport and allowing us to watch them perform, why should we expect them to pack it in and move on? I also think that reputation would be better referred to as prestige and reliability. If you know that person has a good chance of delivering and has done for the past 10 years, why would you instantly drop them for the younger newer model that may only have a 2 year career at the top of the podium. I hope that makes sense, sorry for rambling.

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Most senior skaters perform with less grace and maturity than 15 years old Kostornaia.

dobrevaria said:

I don't understand this either. Skaters do get injustly propped up based on reputation, but it has nothing to do with longevity. Look at the PCS Zagitova got during the Olympics or the PCS Medvedeva got during her first senior season. They didn't have a long career back then (and still don't) and they still got high scores ; that's what we call politics and overscoring, but it has nothing to do with longevity.

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Those skaters at least do something on ice.
Unlike someone like Kostner who skates from jump to jump and gets insane scores for basically just her name. I would understand if she had programs packed with transitions and stuff. But she gets PCs by doing jump setups basically.

The last thing on ice impresses me is if a coach, or a country, churns out skaters who leave the senior ranks of the sport after two or three years. For me, boooorinnnnng

And that is also not the lesson I want to teach my child: sacrifice everything else, compromise your health, get a medal as a teen and then skip off and abandon what you’ve been doing. Nope:disapp:

I follow skaters, not countries. Could care less how many medals a country gets.:yawn: I follow skaters, not coaches, I could care less how many medals a coach’s skaters get. :yawn: And because I follow skaters, I want them to have long, fluorishing, successful (however they define success) career.

Which is why I want to know more about the effect of training quads on young skaters, of any gender, from any country, whoever they may be.

For obvious reasons I keep hitting “ignore thread” under thread tools but it’s not working. Anyone know what I’m doing wrong?

el henry said:

The last thing on ice impresses me is if a coach, or a country, churns out skaters who leave the senior ranks of the sport after two or three years. For me, boooorinnnnng

And that is also not the lesson I want to teach my child: sacrifice everything else, compromise your health, get a medal as a teen and then skip off and abandon what you’ve been doing. Nope:disapp:

I follow skaters, not countries. Could care less how many medals a country gets.:yawn: I follow skaters, not coaches, I could care less how many medals a coach’s skaters get. :yawn: And because I follow skaters, I want them to have long, fluorishing, successful (however they define success) career.

Which is why I want to know more about the effect of training quads on young skaters, of any gender, from any country, whoever they may be.

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But what if a skater defines success as getting an Olympic/World medal early and then retiring to pursue other interests? I agree with what you are saying (I would much rather watch a longer career than a shorter one), but I think we need to realize that what we want as fans might not be the same as what the skaters themselves want. Sasha Cohen could have stayed on longer, but after her OSM she wanted to pursue other endeavors. She was still young and had so much more to give to the sport, but I respect her decision to milk her brand and get a college education. As concerned as we may be for our favorite skaters’ health, we are selfish viewers at the end of the day, and I think it’s important to acknowledge that.

And that’s why I’m so sad for Alina. She could have left us, but she stayed on after her Olympic gold, either to get that World title or (I personally believe) to develop herself as a skater and see how much she could grow. I do not like seeing her triples fall apart and her skating getting more frantic and insecure. It’s a shame, and it shows how important good technique is.

But this is all off-topic anyway. I agree we need more data on quads and their effect on all skaters, regardless of gender and nationality

Sam-Skwantch said:

For obvious reasons I keep hitting “ignore thread” under thread tools but it’s not working. Anyone know what I’m doing wrong?

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I don’t know, but I do know that I tried to ignore threads, but the posts still showed up in “What’s New”. Which limited the value.

Good luck!

rachno2 said:

But what if a skater defines success as getting an Olympic/World medal early and then retiring to pursue other interests? I agree with what you are saying (I would much rather watch a longer career than a shorter one), but I think we need to realize that what we want as fans might not be the same as what the skaters themselves want. Sasha Cohen could have stayed on longer, but after her OSM she wanted to pursue other endeavors. She was still young and had so much more to give to the sport, but I respect that her decision to milk her brand and get a college education. As concerned as we may be for our favorite skaters’ health, we are selfish viewers at the end of the day, and I think it’s important to acknowledge that.

And that’s why I’m so sad for Alina. She could have left us, but she stayed on after her Olympic gold, either to get that World title or (I personally believe) to develop herself as a skater and see how much she could grow. I do not like seeing her triples fall apart and her skating getting more frantic and insecure. It’s a shame, and it shows how important good technique is.

But this is all off-topic anyway. I agree we need more data on quads and their effect on all skaters, regardless of gender and nationality

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In that instance, I would agree. I would be sad, because if a skater has as much to offer as an OGM does, I would hope they know their mind when they decide to retire. How much poorer the skating world would be if Yuzu had left after his first OGM.

But I would want the skater to be as healthy as possible and not have health be the reason they retire.

ETA: which, to relate this to the topic, is why I would like to know more about the effect of training quads at a young age on their health.

laybackrelaxspinfast said:

Fair enough, that’s your opinion. But if skating is their source of income then they don’t need an education or another job. ...

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I have a different view. 99.99% of all skaters never earn a penny form their skating and in fact spend a lot of money (either their own. their parents', or their federations' and sponsors') to participate in the sport. And to say that anyone, even the most successful skater in the history of the world "doesn''t need an education," oh my! This is true only if you want to go through life as an ill-informed dummy. :eeking:

That's what I think, anyway.

Just a reminder to keep this thread friendly and respectful please! We don’t need more negativity in the sport!

one thing that i do think is good is that a quad + fall is worth less than a clean triple, ignoring any UR calls. so skaters who aren't consistent on their quads (which I'd like to think somewhat correlates with technique) won't go for them in competition. also, there is no senior lady that has landed a clean quad and it will be interesting to see eteri's girls next year